[View]

Originally Posted by screamer

This just does not sit well with me at all, arrogance in the extreme, surely he should have shown some backbone and abstained from signing it until the referendum has been held?

At which point you or others would be claiming "Ah, but if he doesn't have the confidence in it to sign it, why should we vote on it?"

You do realise that Ireland entered into 35 separate international agreements in 2011 alone, all of them signed before the Oireachtas (and/or the people) got to vote on them?

[gerryo777]

Originally Posted by meglome

Show us the figures then and we can work it out.

What figures would you like?

[View]

Originally Posted by gerryo777

That's your opinion, it's wrong, but it's your's.
This is a country where if you buy a car you pay VRT and then you pay VAT on top of that.
You buy fuel for the car and 65% of what you pay at the pumps goes in tax.
Every pint you drink, give 30% in tax.
Our VAT rate is 23%.
Remember that stamp duty was up to 9% on some houses.
Out of the cost of a house, up to 60% went to government in one tax or another.
The list of rip off stealth taxes is endless.

Well, I have a lot of sympathy with this but I am afraid that the situation is in large (altough not all) part due to the electorate.

How so?

When offered the chance, people voted for "low taxes" which the government interpreted as low personal income taxes. This was done largely by moving the tax burden over to duties, VAT etc (since the electorate certainly was not calling for cuts in government spending).

People did not though demand more efficient spending, cost control etc - had they done so, we'd be in better shape than we currently are.

[happyman81]

Originally Posted by McTigs

There was a woman on Matt Cooper yesterday, I think Irish journalist based in brussels, and she was basicly saying nobody there cares whether we sign it or not.

As far as they are concerned, they are stabilising the currency and we can be part of that or not but they are not really bothered either way.

This vote is big news here and there will be all kinds of shouting and roaring about it over the next few months, over there they are moving on and they won't really be thinking about us again till we are back cap in hand sometime next year..... which after a No vote they may just tell us to get lost and try our luck on the open market.

This conveniently ignores the fact that the ECB is exposed to Irish banks to at least €100bn...

[Liam Byrne]

Originally Posted by View

When offered the chance, people voted for "low taxes" which the government interpreted as low personal income taxes.

The government interpreted incorrectly so.

This was done largely by moving the tax burden over to duties, VAT etc (since the electorate certainly was not calling for cuts in government spending).

What makes you think they weren't ? There was repeated outcry about the amount of waste, but the government ignored it - another crap decision

People did not though demand more efficient spending, cost control etc - had they done so, we'd be in better shape than we currently are.

What "people" didn't ? Every time we did we were fobbed off with the false claim that Ireland was low tax and faced with arrogant "sense of entitlement" speeches from con-men and no decisions to cut waste; even Kenny's pay caps have been abandoned by both Kenny & Varadkar, giving the electorate who voted for them an arrogant two-fingers.

[later12]

Originally Posted by happyman81

This conveniently ignores the fact that the ECB is exposed to Irish banks to at least €100bn...

I think you're conveniently ignoring two significant facts here. Firstly that much of the risk on the ELA is technically assumed at the National Central Bank, not at Frankfurt.

Secondly, that this is completely immaterial to the fiscal compact. ELA liabilities will be completely unchanged by whatever the electorate decide in the upcoming treaty.

[happyman81]

Originally Posted by later12

I think you're conveniently ignoring two significant facts here. Firstly that much of the risk on the ELA is technically assumed at the National Central Bank, not at Frankfurt.

Secondly, that this is completely immaterial to the fiscal compact. ELA liabilities will be completely unchanged by whatever the electorate decide in the upcoming treaty.

Nonsense. Frankly, I know better than to dragged into such discussions on this forum. Enjoy the victory.

[paddyandy]

How much does the average person understand about the treaty to be signed ?

[K-9]

Originally Posted by paddyandy

How much does the average person understand about the treaty to be signed ?

I'd say not much yet, early days in the campaign, but I'd say it is far from unreadable.

It is quite short and readable for an International Treaty.

[paddyandy]

You can make many good ideas look bad and many bad ideas look good with a clever choice of words .This is where Popular Democracy gets scary especially where understanding is low and there is realistically no plan b .I have never been as anxious about anything before in politics .It looks like total collapse could be on the way . Shows a terrible weakness in our system .

[syklops]

Originally Posted by paddyandy

How much does the average person understand about the treaty to be signed ?

Not a lot is the answer.

[meglome]

Originally Posted by syklops

Not a lot is the answer.

I can understand if people don't know and just don't vote. I can even understand since the EU has been a positive influence on Ireland that people might vote yes, even though they don't have all the details. But what I find scary is the many people online who have no real idea what this fiscal compact does but are rabidly calling for a No vote. These same people are generally putting forward 'alternatives' which quite frankly are even more scary.