[raymon]

Originally Posted by hallelujajordan

Not really.. Any objective analysis would say that FF are more or less in the same place as they were this time last year (although I would never accuse you of being objective when it comes to FF) . .

Sunday Independent poll today was imo far more interesting. . . 36% of those polled want to see FF recover and become a realistic alternative party in government, far more than the 23% who want to see Sinn Fein in government.

Another interesting finding in this poll . . Only 3% of people polled think they are to blame for the current economic crisis. . Strange, considering that Fianna Fail achieved 41% of first preference votes as recently as 2007, and I'll wager that more than 3% of us have either had investment properties, 100% mortgages or holidays/cars etc that we cannot afford. . We might not all have gone mad (as other posters will be quick to remind me) but certainly more than 3% of us did




+1 . . I am hoping that this weekend will be a turning point for FF . . no more apologies and gestures. Time to shed the sackcloth and ashes and get on with leading the opposition.

The independent poll was not an objective poll.

Please provide the questions that provided these percentages.

The questions were leading and do not compare like with like

In any case the results are poor for FF . The constant drone of whinge is obviously not working

[jank]

Originally Posted by Sierra Oscar

Fantastic Ard Fheis, positive and constructive discussions amongst the 5,000+ members in regards what needs to change in the party in order to ensure past mistakes are not repeated.

It was great to see the entirety of the organisational reform motions pass almost unanimously on Saturday, ensuring that the necessary change in the structures of the organisation can now occur in order to allow the empowerment of the ordinary member. It really is a game changer for the party and represents the greatest alteration in the structures of the movement since its foundation.

I also personally enjoyed the discussions in regard social policy and I was glad to see the same sex marriage motion being carried - I think that particular motion highlights that the party is moving on with the times. Also it was fantastic to see gender quotas being opposed in favour of creating policy which will actually encourage greater female participation in politics rather than women just being used as fodder on a ballot. More of those frank discussions need to happen, without them the party would be going nowhere. The opposition to the gender quotas illustrates that the ordinary members are not always just going to row in behind the party leadership in a show of blind faith, the practice of which in the past ensured elected representatives got away with doing things which were just downright wrong.

It was interesting to listen to the treasures report also, with members presented with the opportunity to question and challenge not only Niall Collins TD in regards the financial activities of the party, but also HQ finance staff. I am nearly certain that this was the first time this sort of a treasurers report occurred at an Ard Fheis and long may it continue!

One thing members were not really discussing all that much were opinion poll results - I think it dawned on everyone that if the hard work undertaken at the Ard Fheis continues then a regain of support is inevitable. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure!

First of all, social polices are not really on the top of peoples prorities. We are in the middle of an economic crisis and will be for the next few years at least. A crisis caused more or less by FF. Backing Gay marriage and expecting a big bump in the polls kinda shows us that they still don't get it. FF are like the Torries in 1997, they still think the problem is with the voters not them. They have to change utterly to be acceptable and even with that many many people will never vote for them again regardless of what they do. Thats life!

I still have no idea what they stand for (apart from Gay marriage!). Arm chair populist republicanism is dead and wont garner much votes any more.

[dublinman1990]

There is one question that is itching on my mind for a while now; When FF officially does go under the hatchet (whenever that will be), what will happen primarily to the TD's and Senators when it is wound up?

Is it going to be in the same position as the PD's left and became independents or will they all resign their seats straight away?

I mean the notion of former FF TD's going into different party affiliations in the present day does not sound right IMO.

The country has seen them go down once a year ago. The public would realise nowadays that their policies are just being described as lazy and self defeating.

[K-9]

Originally Posted by jank

First of all, social polices are not really on the top of peoples prorities. We are in the middle of an economic crisis and will be for the next few years at least. A crisis caused more or less by FF. Backing Gay marriage and expecting a big bump in the polls kinda shows us that they still don't get it. FF are like the Torries in 1997, they still think the problem is with the voters not them. They have to change utterly to be acceptable and even with that many many people will never vote for them again regardless of what they do. Thats life!

I still have no idea what they stand for (apart from Gay marriage!). Arm chair populist republicanism is dead and wont garner much votes any more.

Social policy is a very important thing in a recession, you just don't get any thanks for it and might get the policy enacted 10 years later, Garret and divorce for example or never, Garret and Abortion for example!

[raymon]

Originally Posted by hallelujajordan

Not really.. Any objective analysis would say that FF are more or less in the same place as they were this time last year (although I would never accuse you of being objective when it comes to FF) . .

Sunday Independent poll today was imo far more interesting. . . 36% of those polled want to see FF recover and become a realistic alternative party in government, far more than the 23% who want to see Sinn Fein in government.

Another interesting finding in this poll . . Only 3% of people polled think they are to blame for the current economic crisis. . Strange, considering that Fianna Fail achieved 41% of first preference votes as recently as 2007, and I'll wager that more than 3% of us have either had investment properties, 100% mortgages or holidays/cars etc that we cannot afford. . We might not all have gone mad (as other posters will be quick to remind me) but certainly more than 3% of us did




+1 . . I am hoping that this weekend will be a turning point for FF . . no more apologies and gestures. Time to shed the sackcloth and ashes and get on with leading the opposition.

I had another look at the weekend polls

The Independent gave a very FF biased view. And hallelujajordan just reiterated this biased view.

Here are some real stats from the weekend

83% of people would not vote FF first preference.
In fact 40% of people do not want FF to recover and become a realistic alternative party of government. 28% are strongly of this view.


39% blame FF for the state of the economy

23% would like to see Sinn Fein in government unfortunately.

[hallelujajordan]

Originally Posted by raymon

I had another look at the weekend polls

The Independent gave a very FF biased view. And hallelujajordan just reiterated this biased view.

Here are some real stats from the weekend

83% of people would not vote FF first preference.
In fact 40% of people do not want FF to recover and become a realistic alternative party of government. 28% are strongly of this view.


39% blame FF for the state of the economy

23% would like to see Sinn Fein in government unfortunately.

Indeed, only 40% of people DO NOT want to see Fianna Fail recover. .

[raymon]

Originally Posted by hallelujajordan

Indeed, only 40% of people DO NOT want to see Fianna Fail recover. .

Exactly , so where is the good news ? That 36% that you refer to don't necessarily want them in govt. Only 17% would give them preference. The 36% just don't want them to die off completely yet

Looks pretty hopeless for FF

[Liam Byrne]

Originally Posted by hallelujahjordan

Only 3% of people polled think they are to blame for the current economic crisis

Originally Posted by raymon

39% blame FF for the state of the economy

Who's telling porkies ?

Oh - hj.....no "maybe" about it, so no need for that word if you want to try being genuinely open and truthful.

[hallelujajordan]

Originally Posted by raymon

Exactly , so where is the good news ? That 36% that you refer to don't necessarily want them in govt. Only 17% would give them preference. The 36% just don't want them to die off completely yet

Looks pretty hopeless for FF

And I would count myself in those 36% who want to see FF playing a strong role in opposition but who do not want to see them in government (at least not for a while) . . However, I am able to recognise that we need a strong opposition and this will not come from either SF or the Independents .

Originally Posted by Liam Byrne

Who's telling porkies ?

.

Not sure what you mean? 3% of people are willing to blame themselves. 39% blame FF ?..

[Liam Byrne]

Ah - I read it that the "they" meant FF

3% of 4.5 million is what ? 135,000 people ?

And the main golden circle is about 90 people that owe the vast majority of the private debt that FF lumped us with, IIRC ?

135,000 people is a hell of a lot more than the core actual cause, but at least it's a starting debating point as to how many.....that said, FF had more votes than that so I'd agree that it's on the low side.

[Sierra Oscar]

Originally Posted by dublinman1990

There is one question that is itching on my mind for a while now; When FF officially does go under the hatchet (whenever that will be), what will happen primarily to the TD's and Senators when it is wound up?

Is it going to be in the same position as the PD's left and became independents or will they all resign their seats straight away?

I mean the notion of former FF TD's going into different party affiliations in the present day does not sound right IMO.

The country has seen them go down once a year ago. The public would realise nowadays that their policies are just being described as lazy and self defeating.

Do you think the thousands of FF members and activists would just disappear off the face of the planet if hypothetically one day Martin woke up in a crazed manner and wound down the party? These are people who are committed to public life no matter the case.

Nope, I can assure you that will not be the case.

[hallelujajordan]

Originally Posted by Liam Byrne

Ah - I read it that the "they" meant FF

3% of 4.5 million is what ? 135,000 people ?

And the main golden circle is about 90 people that owe the vast majority of the private debt that FF lumped us with, IIRC ?

135,000 people is a hell of a lot more than the core actual cause, but at least it's a starting debating point as to how many.....that said, FF had more votes than that so I'd agree that it's on the low side.

I'm flabbergasted. . you really believe that the 'core actual cause' is down to 90 people ? ? ? 90 people created the Celtic Tiger, overheated the economy and inflated a most enormous property bubble. .

I can accept your assertion that not everyone was responsible for the creation of a bubble that eventually exploded all over us, but 90 people . . . really ? ? ?

What about the many many people who overspent, overborrowed, invested in property, bought cars/holidays/holiday homes/property extensions that they couldn't afford . . that continued to reward a government that put money in their pockets, that successfully encouraged the opposition parties at the time to adopt more or less the same economic policies. . ?? What about the people that were willing to accept the loans they knew they couldn't afford.. the ones that you were prudent enough to turn down ??

I'm flabbergasted.

[raymon]

Originally Posted by hallelujajordan

I'm flabbergasted. . you really believe that the 'core actual cause' is down to 90 people ? ? ? 90 people created the Celtic Tiger, overheated the economy and inflated a most enormous property bubble. .

I can accept your assertion that not everyone was responsible for the creation of a bubble that eventually exploded all over us, but 90 people . . . really ? ? ?

What about the many many people who overspent, overborrowed, invested in property, bought cars/holidays/holiday homes/property extensions that they couldn't afford . . that continued to reward a government that put money in their pockets, that successfully encouraged the opposition parties at the time to adopt more or less the same economic policies. . ?? What about the people that were willing to accept the loans they knew they couldn't afford.. the ones that you were prudent enough to turn down ??

I'm flabbergasted.

Here we go again with more FF history rewriting.

The main cause of the biggest financial disaster in Irelands history was Fianna Fail, Michael Martin admitted it and said sorry. Was I hearing things when all the FFers stood up and clapped and cheered and waved their FF flags and balloons in the air , united in glee???

It was your personal hero Bertie who also played a huge part.

Am I missing something ?

[hallelujajordan]

Originally Posted by raymon

Here we go again with more FF history rewriting.

The main cause of the biggest financial disaster in Irelands history was Fianna Fail, Michael Martin admitted it and said sorry. Was I hearing things when all the FFers stood up and clapped and cheered and waved their FF flags and balloons in the air , united in glee???

It was your personal hero Bertie who also played a huge part.

Am I missing something ?

Michael Martin admitted that Fianna Fail made mistakes and apologised on behalf of the party for those mistakes. . He was right on both counts . .

Does that mean that no other mistakes were made ? That no one else is culpable ? That there is no responsibility on those who overspent/overborrowed/overinvested in a hyper-inflated property market ? ? ? No responsibility on those who repeatedly rewarded and encouraged short term economic policies that served to feed the tiger and inflate the bubble ? ?

It seems that Fianna Fail are the only ones willing to acknowledge their culpability . . but that certainly does not mean that they are the only ones culpable. .

[raymon]

Originally Posted by hallelujajordan

Michael Martin admitted that Fianna Fail made mistakes and apologised on behalf of the party for those mistakes. . He was right on both counts . .

Does that mean that no other mistakes were made ? That no one else is culpable ? That there is no responsibility on those who overspent/overborrowed/overinvested in a hyper-inflated property market ? ? ? No responsibility on those who repeatedly rewarded and encouraged short term economic policies that served to feed the tiger and inflate the bubble ? ?

It seems that Fianna Fail are the only ones willing to acknowledge their culpability . . but that certainly does not mean that they are the only ones culpable. .

It is true that Fianna Fail did have accomplices in causing our bankruptcy.