[Logical Fallacy]

It's good to give kids something that is a little bit difficult and maybe a little bit pointless...gets them used to a lot of the way the world works.

People seem to be desperate to turn the school system into a hand holding session that breeds remedial dumb-asses that are afraid of a bit of hard work.

[Iwasfrozen]

Originally Posted by Logical Fallacy

It's good to give kids something that is a little bit difficult and maybe a little bit pointless...gets them used to a lot of the way the world works.

People seem to be desperate to turn the school system into a hand holding session that breeds remedial dumb-asses that are afraid of a bit of hard work.

Your name is apt. That's not a reason to keep irish cumpulsory. We might as well have our kids dig holes in the yard as something difficult and pointless. By the way I don't know how you think the world works but from my perspective if someone asks me to do something difficult there'd better be a bloody good reason for it.

[Logical Fallacy]

Originally Posted by Iwasfrozen

Your name is apt.

Well done, no one has ever said that before, and i certainly haven't joked about how my name is a warning about my posts content.

Also, this is AH, so it's best to not take posts entirely seriously.

If you start a petition to replace Irish with hole digging i will sign it though.

Finally kids are not being "asked" to do something, they are being "told" to do something, yet kids being kids are they are ****ing lazy, and parents being parents they are willing to protect their kids right to be lazy, and their freedom to grow up to be both stupid and lazy.

These threads are always the same, people who were too stupid for school blaming the "difficult" and "pointless" subjects that were too complex for their feeble brains.

It's secondary school ****. It's easy.

[Iwasfrozen]

Originally Posted by Logical Fallacy

Finally kids are not being "asked" to do something, they are being "told" to do something, yet kids being kids are they are ****ing lazy, and parents being parents they are willing to protect their kids right to be lazy, and their freedom to grow up to be both stupid and lazy.

These threads are always the same, people who were too stupid for school blaming the "difficult" and "pointless" subjects that were too complex for their feeble brains.

It's secondary school ****. It's easy.

Nice to see my little joke was original so. I really thought it wouldn't be.

You really can't be serious? We aren't talking about kids here, we're talking about teenagers in secondary school who although most of them may still be legally kids they're old enough to know what they have interest in and what they consider a waste of time. What business does the state have to mandate their education based on some dumb cultural illusion?

And yes as a matter of fact they are being "asked" to do irish not "told". Many students rightly refuse to do the subject and get excemptions on some pretty shaky ground because they see the language has no merit and their valuable time is better spent studying more important subjects. You know, the ones that will futher their careers?

There's no way you can "tell" any student to do anything. I for instance refused to do PE in 6th year. It earned me the ire of my principal but I got an extra hour and ten minutes studying during the day while the rest were running around a field.

It's not about the subject being difficult, it's about it being pointless.

[Princess Consuela Bananahammock]

Originally Posted by Logical Fallacy

Well done, no one has ever said that before, and i certainly haven't joked about how my name is a warning about my posts content.

Also, this is AH, so it's best to not take posts entirely seriously.

If you start a petition to replace Irish with hole digging i will sign it though.

Finally kids are not being "asked" to do something, they are being "told" to do something, yet kids being kids are they are ****ing lazy, and parents being parents they are willing to protect their kids right to be lazy, and their freedom to grow up to be both stupid and lazy.

These threads are always the same, people who were too stupid for school blaming the "difficult" and "pointless" subjects that were too complex for their feeble brains.

It's secondary school ****. It's easy.

Again, how is saying that somehting is pointless and hard for the sake of being pointless and hard helping? How does this promote the language?

And what is the point of teaching kids how to debate and make decisions if we think the correct porcedue is to throw all that out the window and tell then what to do? Are you seriously suggesting that pointlessness should be a requirement of an education system? To me, this is the mark of beign just too damn lazy to accept or adjust to change.

Also, this thread, if you bother to read it, is full of intelligent people making cases for freedom of choice out of logical practical reasons, chief amongst them the idea that it will allow a student to tailor their Leaving Cert to their personal needs, or to enhance their knowledge or enjoyment of something. To dismiss them as purely blaming "pointless" and "difficult" subjects for the "failures" you see to perceive (and, specifically, what failures, may I ask, are you talking about?) is a massive amount of assumption and ignorance on your part.

[KeithAFC]

How does this promote the language?

Surely the language does not need promotion? If people want to learn it, they will. Times move on. People don't need to learn the Irish language or be forced to learn a language which is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Like I said, it seems to be a more cultural and political thing than it being about the language itself.

[Princess Consuela Bananahammock]

Originally Posted by KeithAFC

Surely the language does not need promotion? If people want to learn it, they will. Times move on. People don't need to learn the Irish language or be forced to learn a language which is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Like I said, it seems to be a more cultural and political thing than it being about the language itself.

Exactly my point. But I am assuming those that wish for Irish to remain compulsory do so for the sake of the langauge. Perhaps erroneously on my part.

[GaryIrv93]

Originally Posted by Logical Fallacy

Well done, no one has ever said that before, and i certainly haven't joked about how my name is a warning about my posts content.

Also, this is AH, so it's best to not take posts entirely seriously.

If you start a petition to replace Irish with hole digging i will sign it though.

Finally kids are not being "asked" to do something, they are being "told" to do something, yet kids being kids are they are ****ing lazy, and parents being parents they are willing to protect their kids right to be lazy, and their freedom to grow up to be both stupid and lazy.

These threads are always the same, people who were too stupid for school blaming the "difficult" and "pointless" subjects that were too complex for their feeble brains.

It's secondary school ****. It's easy.

Would it not be better to work hard for something difficult but actually worth doing? Irish is both difficult and not useful (for most people), so why should kids be forced to learn it? A waste of money and a waste of student's time, especially when they could be learning something that's actually useful for their futures. And my point is that not only that Irish is pointless and not useful, it's also more along the lines of ''why not give kids a bit more freedom in their own education?'' instead of dictating everything they learn.

[ToddyDoody]

Originally Posted by Logical Fallacy

It's good to give kids something that is a little bit difficult and maybe a little bit pointless...gets them used to a lot of the way the world works.

People seem to be desperate to turn the school system into a hand holding session that breeds remedial dumb-asses that are afraid of a bit of hard work.

we need to work smarter not harder

[skylight1987]

Having spent more than seven hundred euro on a private weekly grinds teacher for my kid, i can whole heartedly say IRISH SHOULD BE OPIONAL

[WillieFlynn]

Originally Posted by iBeast

The fact that we are even talking about the language not being compulsory shows how the west brit media have brainwashed the country.

No, we are talking about the frustration of people for one reason or another don't want to do Irish as a Leaving Cert subject, being forced to.

[WillieFlynn]

I feel that those calling for Irish to remain compulsory, would be better directing their effort to making the course attractive to students.

Coercion doesn't work very well in Ireland, just look at how may people will drink more on good Friday than on a normal Friday. It's nearly a national sport to break rules / laws you don't agree with.

I also find it weird that Irish is the only compulsory subject......

[SeanW]

Originally Posted by Logical Fallacy

It's good to give kids something ... pointless...gets them used to a lot of the way the world works.

Great, so when students have to drop physics, sciences and accountancy because the country is broke (see link) and we must protect the gaeilgoirs fetish and the religious orders, LC graduates looking for a job can tell their prospective employer when interviewing for a adminstrative/bookeeping jobs "ehh ... well, I know I didn't do accountancy or anything like that, useful productive stuff but logical fallacy says it's great to learn pointless stuff, I'm an expert in religion and I sat through 1000s of hours "learning" the Irish language ... I should be the best worker you've ever had."

I can just imagine the business owner tripping over themselves to offer that person a job.

People seem to be desperate to turn the school system into a hand holding session that breeds remedial dumb-asses that are afraid of a bit of hard work.

No, I am desperate to turn the educaction system into one that serves the best interests of our children, preferably by engaging them with their education by giving them an extensive array of elective choices from bookeeping, sciences, IT, carpentry and trades, foreign languages etc. I don't know of anyone who wants a school system that "breeds remedial dumb-asses" but the current system does this very well. 25% of boys leave the system functionally illterate and most students waste nearly 1/3 of their time learning useless rubbish like religion and Irish that will not help them one bit in the real world, at least not on this world anyway.

[endacl]

Originally Posted by sher55

Irish should be done away with.
Totally useless unless the could actually teach a student the language at a young age.
And at that the Irish language would have to be revived from the dead which is not going to happen.
Having it as a subject is pointless you are only confusing people by learning them words and simple phrases without going the whole hog .

'learning them phrases.....'.....?

[endacl]

Originally Posted by SeanW

Great, so when students have to drop physics, sciences and accountancy because the country is broke (see link) and we must protect the gaeilgoirs fetish and the religious orders, LC graduates looking for a job can tell their prospective employer when interviewing for a adminstrative/bookeeping jobs "ehh ... well, I know I didn't do accountancy or anything like that, useful productive stuff but logical fallacy says it's great to learn pointless stuff, I'm an expert in religion and I sat through 1000s of hours "learning" the Irish language ... I should be the best worker you've ever had."

I can just imagine the business owner tripping over themselves to offer that person a job.

No, I am desperate to turn the educaction system into one that serves the best interests of our children, preferably by engaging them with their education by giving them an extensive array of elective choices from bookeeping, sciences, IT, carpentry and trades, foreign languages etc. I don't know of anyone who wants a school system that "breeds remedial dumb-asses" but the current system does this very well. 25% of boys leave the system functionally illterate and most students waste nearly 1/3 of their time learning useless rubbish like religion and Irish that will not help them one bit in the real world, at least not on this world anyway.

Let's be realistic. There's not a single subject on lc that prepares a person for the 'real world'. What an education should do is allow a child to develop the ability to think. Doesn't matter a damn if the subject us Irish, maths or nepalese nose whistling. Why not Irish? LC maths won't make an engineer. It only develops a capacity in a particular way if thinking, if of course it is conceptualized properly. Likewise biology. Won't make doctor. Or for that matter, a biologist. Picking on a particular subject is silly. I have seven years of French. Two of those at third level, and Delboy would parlez rings around me. There's not a single LC subject that has been of any use in life, work or further education (halfway through my 3rd post-grad at the moment, just for context). That doesn't mean they weren't of value developmentally, in terms of how I learned to learn. Maths wise, for example... In daily life, my primary school arithmetic serves me just fine, thank you very much. Does that mean that the five years of calculus and theorems were wasted? I'll never use them, but I can certainly think in that direction.