[The Corinthian]

Originally Posted by yawha

lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.

It's a valid point to an extent, although I'm not certain that I'd agree with it.

If 'men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework' (presuming men have a 'lower' or 'less fastidious' one), then it would follow that men will do less housework as their standard can be more easily met, while women - unhappy with this standard - will bring it up to the one that they're happy with (from a male perspective she would be creating unnecessary work for herself).

Where I'd disagree is that I would not agree with such a stereotypical difference of attitudes between the sexes - I think we've all met enough female 'slobs' and 'fastidious' males to debunk that.

[iptba]

Originally Posted by The Corinthian

It's a valid point to an extent, although I'm not certain that I'd agree with it.

If 'men and women seem to have, on average, different standards with regard to housework' (presuming men have a 'lower' or 'less fastidious' one), then it would follow that men will do less housework as their standard can be more easily met, while women - unhappy with this standard - will bring it up to the one that they're happy with (from a male perspective she would be creating unnecessary work for herself).

Yes, that's exactly the point I'm making.

Originally Posted by The Corinthian

Where I'd disagree is that I would not agree with such a stereotypical difference of attitudes between the sexes - I think we've all met enough female 'slobs' and 'fastidious' males to debunk that.

And I've met enough to believe there is an average difference.
Do you also disagree with my suggestion that women on average have more of an interest in interior decoration/design than men?

[iptba]

Originally Posted by yawha

lolwut? How is that an important point? I guess noticing general trends in difference of attitudes between the sexes is mildly interesting, but it's a pretty trivial issue.

I thought it would have been clear that I was saying it was an important point in terms of the specific point in the discussion (as opposed to an important point in terms of everything in life).

The suggestion is that many men are deliberately leaving work for women. However, if men see that women are in effect creating work for themselves, they are not being negligent as it were. Yet, generally when we hearing discussions, this idea is not brought up.

If you feel the issue is trivial, probably best to leave it to other people who might be interested in it. We could all go around threads and say, "Lol, why are you talking about something which isn't important". It wouldn't make for a good environment.

[The Corinthian]

Originally Posted by iptba

Do you also disagree with my suggestion that women on average have more of an interest in interior decoration/design than men?

The old nest-building instinct theory?

TBH, this is one of those areas where I would not entirely trust myself to be judge objectively, largely because most men have more interest in interior decoration/design than me.

You do raise an interesting point vis-à-vis redundant housework, however I do feel that this, even if true, alone would not explain the statistical disparity between the genders with regards to the division of housework.

I do believe that we men do, regrettably, still have a bit of chauvinism lurking in our psyche.

[iptba]

Originally Posted by The Corinthian

The old nest-building instinct theory?

TBH, this is one of those areas where I would not entirely trust myself to be judge objectively, largely because most men have more interest in interior decoration/design than me.

I don't think one needs to apply any theory, although perhaps that is the reason. It would just seem empirically that the interior decoration/design market (magazines, etc.) is consumed more by women. The people who do such courses in college are nearly all women, etc. I've heard women say things that I would not associate with (heterosexual) men e.g. the pleasure they can get flicking through such magazines - it's almost like pornography (but not in a bad way). For whatever reason, there seems to be a bit of a difference to me.

But some men, perhaps more in those who are older, should do more at home. I remember my mum mentioning a man who, when his wife came home from the hospital after giving birth, started looking for his wife to make some tea for him.

But even among the younger generations, I don't think DIY jobs are divided 50/50 between men and women.

[The Corinthian]

I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, however I would contend that much of this disparity is as a result of persistent gender stereotypes that are to this day perpetuated within society, by both chauvinism and, ironically, post-Feminism.

[HavingCrack]

Originally Posted by iptba

But even among the younger generations, I don't think DIY jobs are divided 50/50 between men and women.

When it comes to DIY I do find there is an element of physical strength that comes into play moreso than in other situations.

The average man is physically stronger than the average woman. Quite a lot of DIY work requires lifting and hammering etc. and the average woman will tire quicker. Obviously there's things like painting etc. that strength does not come into it as much but a lot of DIY work is definately easier for men to do on average.

[wonderfulname]

Originally Posted by HavingCrack

When it comes to DIY I do find there is an element of physical strength that comes into play moreso than in other situations.

The average man is physically stronger than the average woman. Quite a lot of DIY work requires lifting and hammering etc. and the average woman will tire quicker. Obviously there's things like painting etc. that strength does not come into it as much but a lot of DIY work is definately easier for men to do on average.

Not a theory I'd agree with, DIY is amateur by definition and you'll find it rarely involves anything where physicality differences between the sexes would actually matter, I have to say I'm almost offended that you suggest hammering of all things to be something a woman would be inherently less capable of.

I'd put it to you that even in the younger generations, men are more likely to do the DIY because they are more likely to know how, it's traditionally the kind of skill set a father teaches his son, so the actions of the younger generations have been affected by the actions of their predecessors. It's one of many areas where the affects of our new found equal thinking aren't going to be immediately visible, because they've barely happened yet.

[iptba]

Originally Posted by Dudess

Could you provide even one example of these man-hating feminists, supported with examples of their behaviour?

I've seen quite a few conversations where even some feminists say some other well-known feminists have man-hating/misandric tendencies.

Here's a link to a sample list:
http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/c...ate_speech.htm

[The Corinthian]

Originally Posted by wonderfulname

Not a theory I'd agree with, DIY is amateur by definition and you'll find it rarely involves anything where physicality differences between the sexes would actually matter, I have to say I'm almost offended that you suggest hammering of all things to be something a woman would be inherently less capable of.

Absolutely. The strength necessary for the vast majority of household DIY is quite limited and most DIY is both mundane and requires little or no strength (electrics, being a prime example). If you look at pre-industrial age housework, women had to contend with some highly strenuous activities, from the carrying of heavy loads through to washing clothes by hand.

The 'strength' argument is a bit of a red herring, IMHO. Suggesting that "a lot of DIY work is definitely easier for men to do on average" on that basis, effectively argues that any physical work should rather be done by men, which is ridiculous.

[yawha]

If men are more likely to do DIY, it sort of contradicts the idea put forward earlier that women are more interested in interior decoration/design. Lots of DIY is centered around interior design.

Lots of men are very into gardening too.

I'm not sure that the idea that women want to do more housework as a result of an inherent difference due to gender holds much water.

[iptba]

Originally Posted by yawha

If men are more likely to do DIY, it sort of contradicts the idea put forward earlier that women are more interested in interior decoration/design. Lots of DIY is centered around interior design.

Not necessarily. For one thing, it depends whose idea it was.

[Dudess]

Originally Posted by iptba

I've seen quite a few conversations where even some feminists say some other well-known feminists have man-hating/misandric tendencies.

Here's a link to a sample list:
http://www.fatherhoodcoalition.org/c...ate_speech.htm

I'm not disputing that at all - but they're on the fringes. It's simply inaccurate to say they're a regular part of everyday life.

[iptba]

Originally Posted by Dudess

I'm not disputing that at all - but they're on the fringes. It's simply inaccurate to say they're a regular part of everyday life.

Ok. It wasn't my point, so I'm not going to defend it.