[Park Royal]

The German President Christian Wulff resigns because of alleged , " loans" ....
Sky News reports...
"Mr Wulff's film producer friend David Groenewold.
Mr Groenewold reportedly picked up the bills for Mr Wulff's hotel and paid for an upgrade during two short breaks.
Mr Wulff's lawyers have said he repaid the money in cash for one of the stays."

Lord oh Lord whats wrong with these Germans , whats bleeding wrong getting an upgrade for heavens sake......they should really loosen up.......

We in Ireland know all too well , its important for politicians to avail of upgrades , sure it goes with the job, for heavens sake........

For example a politician wants to rent a house and just to ensure the house is to your liking we would expect the landlord to bung you lets say £30,000 or even Euro.....to put in fallderalls , such as curtains new furniture , lights,
the usual stuff landlords give their tenants before they take up their tenancy ......but thats little Ireland ( we've got things right) , isnt that right Bertie but Germany have things all wrong....

a hint of a politician being God forbid and all harm brought to book on possible undue influence / corruption charge , in Ireland, this country of renowned Saints and Scroungers , we know its the politicians duty to uphold the highest standards and fight the case every step of the way, even if if means getting the lick arse servants around them to get into the dock and tell it as they saw things....the Irish way......

Do you think Ray will give us a receipt .........." will he fock"

Charlie I am calling to get back the £1,000,000 ( million) the big fellow gave you, and you giving out about the quality of the shirts my father was bringing in.........

Burke ,Dunlop, P Flynn, Lawlor, Lowry, ...et al......

Thanks be to God we Irish have had the benefit of long decades of good Catholic standards, and devotion to the Roman Catholic Church , we know political corruption from upgrades when we see it........

[The Corinthian]

I've read your above post about three times and I've given up trying to find a point in it - German standards on corruption are too high, ours are too low or something else. It appears to be a stream of conciousness, that has no beginning, middle or end and so I really don't know what response you're looking for other than "meh".

Or would you like to clarify what you're trying to say?

[gerryo777]

Originally Posted by The Corinthian

I've read your above post about three times and I've given up trying to find a point in it - German standards on corruption are too high, ours are too low or something else. It appears to be a stream of conciousness, that has no beginning, middle or end and so I really don't know what response you're looking for other than "meh".

Or would you like to clarify what you're trying to say?

Probably the point is that at the first hint of scandal the german president resigned whereas over it would be here deny everything until there's no other choice followed by a farce of a tribunal costing countless millions in fees for the so called 'elite' in this country with no consequences for anyone at the end of it all.
Refering to bertie, you can see why he feels so at home in Nigeria.

[The Corinthian]

Fair enough, it's just not terribly clear from what he wrote.

So tolerance for corruption is significantly higher in Ireland than in Germany? There's a blinding flash of insight.

'Screwing the system' in Ireland has long been seen in positive terms, with a 'cute hoor' being a character type to be admired. This is not unusual for formerly subjugated nations as historically 'screwing the system' was in effect a form of rebellion against an occupying power. Arguably the Greeks suffer from this too to a great extent, but that's another discussion.

Upon independence, we retained this cultural trait, which morphed from screwing the English system to screwing the Dublin-Jackeen system, and we just went along with it. That Haughey, for example, was utterly corrupt was widely known, and I remember some even expressing admiration at this. Fear of retribution (legal and otherwise) from him and a general culture of normality where it came to such behaviour meant that, despite this common knowledge, it remained an unspoken truth - we actually did the same thing with regard to clerical child abuse, or did you genuinely think that no one knew what was going on there?

When the proverbial shìt hit the fan, the political establishment panicked; corruption was so widespread and common practice that no one even bothered to cover their tracks half the time and reform would have implicated almost everyone.

Thus someone came up the idea of the tribunal; which was seen to be addressing the issue when it was in the public eye and then would drag on until the public eye would grow bored and could then quietly brush everything under a carpet of legalistic language that would only be understood by someone who stood to gain from said system. Pure genius.

And that's why Ireland has jailed practically no one for corruption, and even when we have it's never been for long.

On top of this, such is the nature of 'parish pump politics' in Ireland that we continue to support such 'cute hoors' despite being exposed publicly (how many continue/continued to get re-elected?). So demand to clean up is very limited given we would rather have a local councillor or TD who can 'sort out' planning permission for an extension to our house than one who's going to be above board.

Overall, Ireland has the politicians that we deserve and until we change our culture with regard to some of the above, we will continue to elect them, regardless of party name; because corruption is not a function of ideology, but opportunity.

[Ellis Dee]

Obviously there's not too much wrong with German standards of political ethics when a head of state resigns after some serious questions are raised about certain loans he received.

Now, if only we could try and achieve the same level of probity and accountability in Ireland.

[Park Royal]

Dear The Corinthian, you make excellent points and thanks for reading my post three times , I'm impressed.....genuinely ...I can see why your a moderator...

I guess I'm bemoaning the total lack of standards ( in so many cases) we Irish are subject to.by some Politicians.....( or have been subject to)...

The chasm in moral standard we are seeing from British and now from this
German politician is for me mind numbing.....

What you say about getting some rogue politicians we deserve is so true but it still( for me) and I'm 60 years old , to see such polar opposite approach in Ireland to what we are seeing in neighbouring countries, just makes my mind collapse or freeze.....like a computer overload.......I cant handle what I'm seeing/reading....realizing......

I have watched for years the various corrupt instances in my little Irish country , and indeed shook my head as a particular politician was elected time and time again despite being engulfed in scandal. But the wounds those instances caused , the deep feelings of being betrayed , reopen when I see , for example ,how Germany's Wollf and Britian's Chris Huhne ( speeding offence ) deal with their allegations.......

and we are a so called Roman Catholic country......with decades of Mass going , and receiving the body of Christ......

[The Corinthian]

Originally Posted by Park Royal

What you say about getting some rogue politicians we deserve is so true but it still( for me) and I'm 60 years old , to see such polar opposite approach in Ireland to what we are seeing in neighbouring countries, just makes my mind collapse or freeze.....like a computer overload.......I cant handle what I'm seeing/reading....realizing......

Unfortunately we still admire the 'cute hoor' in Irish society and as we seek to elect politicians on the basis of what they can do for us individually, what do you expect? The culture of 'parish pump politics' in Ireland rewards corruption - we want politicians who'll bend or break the rules when it suits us and we'll vote for them again when they do.

And even if we are not directly involved, we'll still follow the countryside principle of "if you have nothing good to say about someone, say nothing", which frankly played a large part in not only protecting people like Haughey, but many a parish priest.

And if you despair of this, then fair enough, but you too were complicit in this. We all were and frankly still are.

[mdebets]

Originally Posted by gerryo777

Probably the point is that at the first hint of scandal the german president resigned whereas over it would be here deny everything until there's no other choice followed by a farce of a tribunal costing countless millions in fees for the so called 'elite' in this country with no consequences for anyone at the end of it all.
Refering to bertie, you can see why he feels so at home in Nigeria.

To be fair, the former German President didn't resign at the first hint of a scandal. He was dragging his heels for some month now, with one scandal after another coming out and he was only ever admitting what was already known and claiming there would be no new scandal after this one.
He only now resigned, because the prosecutors asked parliament to be allowed to open an investigation into these scandals. Even after that he feels hard done by and said he didn't do anything wrong and it was all the media who were after him.

[gerryo777]

Originally Posted by mdebets

To be fair, the former German President didn't resign at the first hint of a scandal. He was dragging his heels for some month now, with one scandal after another coming out and he was only ever admitting what was already known and claiming there would be no new scandal after this one.
He only now resigned, because the prosecutors asked parliament to be allowed to open an investigation into these scandals. Even after that he feels hard done by and said he didn't do anything wrong and it was all the media who were after him.

Yea, haven't really being paying much attention to that particular case, I'd be more concerned with what goes on here.
I know one thing, power corrupts people and we seem to have a hell of a lot of that in this country.
Just look at the lot that are in government now, before they were elected it was all about honesty and transparency and now, not a year later it's all pay rises for advisors, extra payments for junior ministers, 'jobs for the boys/gals' while at the same time attacking the lowest paid or the unemployed to fund their extravagances.

[bijapos]

Originally Posted by gerryo777

Probably the point is that at the first hint of scandal the german president resigned ...........

Its been going on for months, he did things that were dodgy for a politician but completely untenable for a President. He was dragged kicking and screaming from that job, as scandal after scandal, lie after lie was exposed he should have stepped down months ago and as a result he has seriously damaged the office of German President.

Originally Posted by Park Royal

I guess I'm bemoaning the total lack of standards ( in so many cases) we Irish are subject to.by some Politicians.....( or have been subject to)...

The chasm in moral standard we are seeing from British and now from this
German politician is for me mind numbing.....

What you say about getting some rogue politicians we deserve is so true but it still( for me) and I'm 60 years old , to see such polar opposite approach in Ireland to what we are seeing in neighbouring countries, just makes my mind collapse or freeze.....like a computer overload.......I cant handle what I'm seeing/reading....realizing......

Germany has plenty of corruption too. Incidentally one of the reasons Merkel cam to the head of the CDU relatively quickly was that so many CDU politicians had to resign in the 90's due to a huge scandal involving illegal financing of their party. As she had only joined in 1990 and as she was not involved in any opposition activities in the GDR there was no mud to stick to her.

I've seen first hand corruption in municipal politics there, there are loads of dubious decisions made at local, state and national level, and the influence of industry should not be underestimated. I think the only difference is that the "cute hoor" here is in same ways admired, in Germany many more people wouldn't tolerate it.

One of the other points is that Germany like many other countries has a list voting system. This means that there is more pressure on parties to get rid of a corrupt person, as they will lose no power due to the list system ensuring that the party will retain the same number of seats. Thus they don't have the Pat "the Cope" Gallagher scenario where a bye-election was put on hold as it may result in a swing of power. Something to be considered here when we are discussing electoral reform.

[The Corinthian]

Originally Posted by bijapos

I've seen first hand corruption in municipal politics there, there are loads of dubious decisions made at local, state and national level, and the influence of industry should not be underestimated. I think the only difference is that the "cute hoor" here is in same ways admired, in Germany many more people wouldn't tolerate it.

The absence of 'cute hoor' hero-worship does make a big difference, IMO, but as you have rightly pointed out, there's no shortage of corruption in Germany (everyone's favourite Freistaat comes to mind), but on balance I do feel it is less prevalent than in Ireland.

One of the other points is that Germany like many other countries has a list voting system. This means that there is more pressure on parties to get rid of a corrupt person, as they will lose no power due to the list system ensuring that the party will retain the same number of seats. Thus they don't have the Pat "the Cope" Gallagher scenario where a bye-election was put on hold as it may result in a swing of power. Something to be considered here when we are discussing electoral reform.

The list voting system would kill 'parish pump politics' in Ireland. Which is one reason I can't see TD's voting it in.

[Funfair]

We had at least 1 politician who was an exception to the rule and resigned once the scandal broke- Trevor Sargent. Not even sure scandal would be the right terminology with Mr. Sargent, more a storm in a tea pot over nothing in relevance to what the major hitters done. For example Ray Burke claiming a 100 grand Pension despite being jailed for corruption leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[gerryo777]

[QUOTE=bijapos;77192174]Its been going on for months, he did things that were dodgy for a politician but completely untenable for a President. He was dragged kicking and screaming from that job, as scandal after scandal, lie after lie was exposed he should have stepped down months ago and as a result he has seriously damaged the office of German President.



I acknowledged that fact yesterday.

[munchkin_utd]

The problem is that the week after the businessman provided a hitel upgrade for the president who was then prime minister of his local federal state, the federal state within days provided 4 million of a credit guarantee for a film being made by the businessman

Even Bertie never was that obvious in "repaying" favours!

[SEEMagazine]

Any system with overly harsh standards is doomed to failure. Politicians are still human, and while it can be expected to avoid corruption on the scale we have endured in Ireland I certainly see no real problem with benefits in kind as 'people of note' often receive.

Imagine a political figure being forced to resign everytime they overstepped the mark? We'd have elections and chaos 24/7.

A modicum of flexibility is required in most instances. I loved the laissez faire attitude of Irish bureaucracy when it worked for me... And the compassion the system could show to me when I truly needed it.

Where I am now is ever so different...though I expect it to lighten up in July '13.

I think we could do with something akin to the UK model. Actively prosecute those found guilty... More than a few MPs have ended up behind bars recently.