Boards.ie

dermo88 · 11-10-2011, 11:16

A few years ago (I will look up my files), I wrote on another website about an alternate history of the Great Northern where the Northern Irish Administration was less hardline on cooperation with the Republic of Ireland, and more 'open' to modernising their part of the system.

Maybe its a sense of a 'tidy mind' on my part, but that rail network "hole" in several counties looks unbalanced.

Northern Ireland is a curious case study. Rail services have 80% of the population of Northern Ireland within a 10 mile radius of a railhead, and its fairly well integrated with other transport modes. But there are significant large towns that are not served, such as Omagh, Strabane and Enniskillen, and no amount of pipe dreams are likely to change that scenario, however much we'd like that. Many of the old formations have been wiped out and used for bypasses.

So what would survive to today, and how:

1. Dundalk to Enniskillen would likely close around 1976. Two trains daily, both locals, connecting at Dundalk. Likely 141/121 hauled with 2-3 coaches.
2. Portadown to Derry would today host the Gatwick Stock and IR Mk3's hauled by 071's for direct Dublin-Derry services until Railcars arrived.
3. Belfast to Enniskillen via Monaghan would likely be an efficient railcar service run jointly between Iarnrod Eireann and Translink
4. Strabane station would be a major hub for buses in Donegal.

But it would have had a hell of a time getting through the troubles, financial constraints and all else.

Losty Dublin · 11-10-2011, 16:22

What would almost definitely have been kept open by CIE, maybe even until this day is the line towards Bundoran and Ballyshannon, probably via Dundalk and Clones. It also saw that Cavan and Belturbet remined open as a branch, the latter catering for the burgeoning trade from Sean Quinn's Derrylin quarry via a stub on the C+L line and a small branch towards the border; C Classes working this line. At this stage, the SLNCR would be gone since the mid 60's, the link to Newry and Warrenpoint making it's cattle traffic near impossbile to ship.

The Derry Road would have been the preferred road through mid Ulster (It would have allowed Derry,Enniskillen and Omagh to have a link to Dublin and Sligo without a change at Portadown; Monaghan, Armagh and Armagh losing their direct links by way of sacrifice for the longer term good of it all. The other casualty to it's survival would have been the NCC line into the current station, it's location on the "wrong side" of the Foyle also going against it's case. Portrush would be the end of the line to and from Belfast today.

On motive power issues, the lines on the NIR end would all be railcar worked, owing to it's withdrawal from freight. Allowing for the additional services to be covered, extra 181's and Cravens are ordered for what effectively are inter city runnings; Bredins and some of the older stock seeing the odd trip at busy periods and on the remaining branch and local workings around Cavan and Clones. In time, Mark 2's make the Derry and Bundoran road as Park Royals begin to show their age and are called up for branch work.

One final thing... CIE, having space issues on Derry as well as perennial customs on both sides, use Strabane, Clones and Enniskillen as a mass liner terminal, the former also being bus hub. This eliminates time and hassle takenwith Excise and Custom inspections on both sides of the border.

Sure is a quiet day in work for us both

dermo88 · 11-10-2011, 17:20

Losty Dublin

Sure is a quiet day in work for us both

I'm on holidays....and I have already met "Drimnagh Road" and a couple of lads already for a few pints.

What would almost definitely have been kept open by CIE, maybe even until this day is the line towards Bundoran and Ballyshannon, probably via Dundalk and Clones. It also saw that Cavan and Belturbet remined open as a branch, the latter catering for the burgeoning trade from Sean Quinn's Derrylin quarry via a stub on the C+L line and a small branch towards the border; C Classes working this line. At this stage, the SLNCR would be gone since the mid 60's, the link to Newry and Warrenpoint making it's cattle traffic near impossbile to ship.

I envisage Bundoran and Ballyshannon being closed in the 1967 round of cutbacks which saw the axe fall on Mallow-Waterford, Thurles-Clonmel. Unless (not sure) they are carrying the same traffic levels as the Westport line. Its not a part of the country I am very familiar with. Build quality and speeds also make a difference. If its not capable of tolerating 15+ tonne axleloads, then its toast.

Cavan and Belturbet lose their passenger services around the same time. These become Freight only until 1975-1976. I am not sure if there is the Industrial base up there to keep it going, plus both lines were decrepit from what I gather. Once the Cattle traffic and sundries go....they go also.

The Derry Road would have been the preferred road through mid Ulster (It would have allowed Derry,Enniskillen and Omagh to have a link to Dublin and Sligo without a change at Portadown; Monaghan, Armagh and Armagh losing their direct links by way of sacrifice for the longer term good of it all. The other casualty to it's survival would have been the NCC line into the current station, it's location on the "wrong side" of the Foyle also going against it's case. Portrush would be the end of the line to and from Belfast today.

(1) The Derry Road is much slower (by about 20 minutes) than the NCC line. Both lines survive. There is the threat of closure of the Derry Road during the troubles and recession of the 1980's-1990's, but it gets a similar 'rennaissance' like the Dublin-Sligo in the 1990's.

(2) Portadown-Monaghan-Armagh-Clones-Enniskillen survive due to the track being laid to a high standard, and the ability to run at 75mph (120kph) as far as Clones. This facilitates a Belfast-Enniskillen service to run in less than 2 hours.

(3) Freight would remain on the NIR to a slightly larger extent. NIR initially buys English-Electric, and has 16 1350hp Class 101 BoBo's. But these barely last into the 1990's and are replaced by GM's and reengined C Class from the South after being cascaded from the DART.

(4) Dundalk-Clones closes to passengers around 1976 as a cross country route with similar slow twisty rural characteristics as Athenry-Claremorris. From what I gather it was even slower. So it needs a full rebuild or closure, and on cost benefits from the likes of McKinseys gets axed. It becomes Freight only. It MIGHT reopen with Border development funds in the 1990s'

(5) Dublin-Derry and Dublin-Belfast are loco hauled. Dublin-Enniskillen does not have a direct service. There is a joint NIR/IE local from Portadown-Enniskillen.

(6) Derry-Omagh-Enniskillen is an additional service run by 70 Class, then 80 Class, splitting and joining at Enniskillen.

Agree on the Freight, and that gets a revival in the 1990s as border restrictions are removed.

ardmacha · 11-10-2011, 17:42

There would certainly be scope for some Belfast bound commuter services to start in Dungannon or Armagh and perhaps the Warrenpoint line might have survived in your new world, so trains could start there for Belfast.

Quote:

Dundalk-Clones closes to passengers around 1976 as a cross country route with similar slow twisty rural characteristics as Athenry-Claremorris. From what I gather it was even slower.

Was it as bad as Athenry-Claremorris? I doubt if it had as many level crossings for instance, but drumlin country makes for bends, I suppose. Perhaps some Dundalk trains could originate in Castleblaney?

dermo88 · 11-10-2011, 18:15

Warrenpoint survives and has an intense commuter/shuttle service.
Armagh also has an intense commuter service. Dungannon might have an hourly or even bihourly service with the Double track from Portadown being reinstated/retained.
Beyond to Monaghan-Clones-Enniskillen, 3-4 daily, gradually rising over time to 7 daily.
Short branches do not survive. Main lines and secondary lines do.

ardmacha · 11-10-2011, 18:41

Quote:

Warrenpoint survives and has an intense commuter/shuttle service.

That would need DART Merrion Gates type arrangements for the level crossings in Newry. And several shopping centres would have to be elsewhere.

JeffK88 · 12-10-2011, 01:18

The Limerick to Foynes Line open with freight traffic connecting a large Developed port at Foynes with the link to tralee and due to the freight traffic using the line companies have set up all around the limerick city area.The Population increased dramatically to well over 150,000 with a commuter line linking the various towns along the route which have grown in size also

...Ireland in general having a substantial Rail freight service on par with New Zealand

Partizan · 12-10-2011, 11:18

Slightly off topic dermo, but what do you think would have happened to the Waterford-Tramore line had it survived the axe in 1961 when the West Cork went? Would it have survived to the present day or be gone by the next tranch of closures in either '63, '67, '76 and '87? Could Waterford-Mallow line have survived into the 1980's and beyond?

corktina · 12-10-2011, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffK88

The Limerick to Foynes Line open with freight traffic connecting a large Developed port at Foynes with the link to tralee and due to the freight traffic using the line companies have set up all around the limerick city area.The Population increased dramatically to well over 150,000 with a commuter line linking the various towns along the route which have grown in size also

...Ireland in general having a substantial Rail freight service on par with New Zealand

I appreciate your point but hardly a Great Northern branch

dermo88 · 12-10-2011, 15:27

Waterford Tramore today would likely have 2 sets of 2600's on it had it survived, and would actually do quite well.

Waterford Mallow sadly could not survive. It was too slow and too expensive to operate. If it survived 1967, it would not make it past 1976, although the game changer would be the Quigley Magnesite plant near Dungarvan. That closed inn 1982, so beyond that, it does not survive.

corktina · 12-10-2011, 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Partizan

Slightly off topic dermo, but what do you think would have happened to the Waterford-Tramore line had it survived the axe in 1961 when the West Cork went? Would it have survived to the present day or be gone by the next tranch of closures in either '63, '67, '76 and '87? Could Waterford-Mallow line have survived into the 1980's and beyond?

Tramore? well given the rise of the motor car in the sixties and the continued decline of the "seaside" it hadnt a hope.
West Cork? well really there isnt much beyond Bandon to provide enough passengers and Bandon to Cork traffic alone would nt have been enough to fight the mootor car.
Waterford to Mallow? How many people made that journey ? The line was built to carry GWR passengers to Cobh to catch Liners and really hadnt a ghost of a chance after this finished.

JeffK88 · 12-10-2011, 15:37

Wasn't the Waterford to Tramore railway not connected to any other railway just a single line linking Waterford to Tramore ..that might have posed a problem for the rolling stock ..a separate rail-car maintenance facility would have to be built....unless a link was built to the main railway ..or the railway was sold to private operator ??

11-10-2011, 11:16	#1
dermo88 Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 977 Adverts \| Friends	Great Northern.......what if? A few years ago (I will look up my files), I wrote on another website about an alternate history of the Great Northern where the Northern Irish Administration was less hardline on cooperation with the Republic of Ireland, and more 'open' to modernising their part of the system. Maybe its a sense of a 'tidy mind' on my part, but that rail network "hole" in several counties looks unbalanced. Northern Ireland is a curious case study. Rail services have 80% of the population of Northern Ireland within a 10 mile radius of a railhead, and its fairly well integrated with other transport modes. But there are significant large towns that are not served, such as Omagh, Strabane and Enniskillen, and no amount of pipe dreams are likely to change that scenario, however much we'd like that. Many of the old formations have been wiped out and used for bypasses. So what would survive to today, and how: 1. Dundalk to Enniskillen would likely close around 1976. Two trains daily, both locals, connecting at Dundalk. Likely 141/121 hauled with 2-3 coaches. 2. Portadown to Derry would today host the Gatwick Stock and IR Mk3's hauled by 071's for direct Dublin-Derry services until Railcars arrived. 3. Belfast to Enniskillen via Monaghan would likely be an efficient railcar service run jointly between Iarnrod Eireann and Translink 4. Strabane station would be a major hub for buses in Donegal. But it would have had a hell of a time getting through the troubles, financial constraints and all else.

12-10-2011, 11:18	#8
Partizan Banned Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 627 Adverts \| Friends	Slightly off topic dermo, but what do you think would have happened to the Waterford-Tramore line had it survived the axe in 1961 when the West Cork went? Would it have survived to the present day or be gone by the next tranch of closures in either '63, '67, '76 and '87? Could Waterford-Mallow line have survived into the 1980's and beyond? Last edited by Partizan; 12-10-2011 at 11:20.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-10-2011, 16:22	#2
Losty Dublin Registered User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 3,050 Adverts \| Friends	What would almost definitely have been kept open by CIE, maybe even until this day is the line towards Bundoran and Ballyshannon, probably via Dundalk and Clones. It also saw that Cavan and Belturbet remined open as a branch, the latter catering for the burgeoning trade from Sean Quinn's Derrylin quarry via a stub on the C+L line and a small branch towards the border; C Classes working this line. At this stage, the SLNCR would be gone since the mid 60's, the link to Newry and Warrenpoint making it's cattle traffic near impossbile to ship. The Derry Road would have been the preferred road through mid Ulster (It would have allowed Derry,Enniskillen and Omagh to have a link to Dublin and Sligo without a change at Portadown; Monaghan, Armagh and Armagh losing their direct links by way of sacrifice for the longer term good of it all. The other casualty to it's survival would have been the NCC line into the current station, it's location on the "wrong side" of the Foyle also going against it's case. Portrush would be the end of the line to and from Belfast today. On motive power issues, the lines on the NIR end would all be railcar worked, owing to it's withdrawal from freight. Allowing for the additional services to be covered, extra 181's and Cravens are ordered for what effectively are inter city runnings; Bredins and some of the older stock seeing the odd trip at busy periods and on the remaining branch and local workings around Cavan and Clones. In time, Mark 2's make the Derry and Bundoran road as Park Royals begin to show their age and are called up for branch work. One final thing... CIE, having space issues on Derry as well as perennial customs on both sides, use Strabane, Clones and Enniskillen as a mass liner terminal, the former also being bus hub. This eliminates time and hassle takenwith Excise and Custom inspections on both sides of the border. Sure is a quiet day in work for us both

11-10-2011, 17:20	#3
dermo88 Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 977 Adverts \| Friends	Losty Dublin Sure is a quiet day in work for us both I'm on holidays....and I have already met "Drimnagh Road" and a couple of lads already for a few pints. What would almost definitely have been kept open by CIE, maybe even until this day is the line towards Bundoran and Ballyshannon, probably via Dundalk and Clones. It also saw that Cavan and Belturbet remined open as a branch, the latter catering for the burgeoning trade from Sean Quinn's Derrylin quarry via a stub on the C+L line and a small branch towards the border; C Classes working this line. At this stage, the SLNCR would be gone since the mid 60's, the link to Newry and Warrenpoint making it's cattle traffic near impossbile to ship. I envisage Bundoran and Ballyshannon being closed in the 1967 round of cutbacks which saw the axe fall on Mallow-Waterford, Thurles-Clonmel. Unless (not sure) they are carrying the same traffic levels as the Westport line. Its not a part of the country I am very familiar with. Build quality and speeds also make a difference. If its not capable of tolerating 15+ tonne axleloads, then its toast. Cavan and Belturbet lose their passenger services around the same time. These become Freight only until 1975-1976. I am not sure if there is the Industrial base up there to keep it going, plus both lines were decrepit from what I gather. Once the Cattle traffic and sundries go....they go also. The Derry Road would have been the preferred road through mid Ulster (It would have allowed Derry,Enniskillen and Omagh to have a link to Dublin and Sligo without a change at Portadown; Monaghan, Armagh and Armagh losing their direct links by way of sacrifice for the longer term good of it all. The other casualty to it's survival would have been the NCC line into the current station, it's location on the "wrong side" of the Foyle also going against it's case. Portrush would be the end of the line to and from Belfast today. (1) The Derry Road is much slower (by about 20 minutes) than the NCC line. Both lines survive. There is the threat of closure of the Derry Road during the troubles and recession of the 1980's-1990's, but it gets a similar 'rennaissance' like the Dublin-Sligo in the 1990's. (2) Portadown-Monaghan-Armagh-Clones-Enniskillen survive due to the track being laid to a high standard, and the ability to run at 75mph (120kph) as far as Clones. This facilitates a Belfast-Enniskillen service to run in less than 2 hours. (3) Freight would remain on the NIR to a slightly larger extent. NIR initially buys English-Electric, and has 16 1350hp Class 101 BoBo's. But these barely last into the 1990's and are replaced by GM's and reengined C Class from the South after being cascaded from the DART. (4) Dundalk-Clones closes to passengers around 1976 as a cross country route with similar slow twisty rural characteristics as Athenry-Claremorris. From what I gather it was even slower. So it needs a full rebuild or closure, and on cost benefits from the likes of McKinseys gets axed. It becomes Freight only. It MIGHT reopen with Border development funds in the 1990s' (5) Dublin-Derry and Dublin-Belfast are loco hauled. Dublin-Enniskillen does not have a direct service. There is a joint NIR/IE local from Portadown-Enniskillen. (6) Derry-Omagh-Enniskillen is an additional service run by 70 Class, then 80 Class, splitting and joining at Enniskillen. Agree on the Freight, and that gets a revival in the 1990s as border restrictions are removed.

11-10-2011, 18:15	#5
dermo88 Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 977 Adverts \| Friends	Warrenpoint survives and has an intense commuter/shuttle service. Armagh also has an intense commuter service. Dungannon might have an hourly or even bihourly service with the Double track from Portadown being reinstated/retained. Beyond to Monaghan-Clones-Enniskillen, 3-4 daily, gradually rising over time to 7 daily. Short branches do not survive. Main lines and secondary lines do.

12-10-2011, 01:18	#7
JeffK88 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Newbridge Posts: 226 Adverts \| Friends	The Limerick to Foynes Line open with freight traffic connecting a large Developed port at Foynes with the link to tralee and due to the freight traffic using the line companies have set up all around the limerick city area.The Population increased dramatically to well over 150,000 with a commuter line linking the various towns along the route which have grown in size also ...Ireland in general having a substantial Rail freight service on par with New Zealand

12-10-2011, 15:27	#10
dermo88 Registered User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 977 Adverts \| Friends	Waterford Tramore today would likely have 2 sets of 2600's on it had it survived, and would actually do quite well. Waterford Mallow sadly could not survive. It was too slow and too expensive to operate. If it survived 1967, it would not make it past 1976, although the game changer would be the Quigley Magnesite plant near Dungarvan. That closed inn 1982, so beyond that, it does not survive.

12-10-2011, 15:37	#12
JeffK88 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Newbridge Posts: 226 Adverts \| Friends	Wasn't the Waterford to Tramore railway not connected to any other railway just a single line linking Waterford to Tramore ..that might have posed a problem for the rolling stock ..a separate rail-car maintenance facility would have to be built....unless a link was built to the main railway ..or the railway was sold to private operator ??