[MerryDespot]

Originally Posted by Airsoft Reloded

every little thing or a prick looking for a quick bit of cash. If someone asked me to see our cover I would assume he was planning to have an "accident" on site and sue so I would refuse hoping that would entire him to leave.

As mentioned below by Inari, the fact that someone has an accident does not mean that you (or by extension, your insurer) are liable. The claimant has to prove negligence in order to succeed. I my honest opinion if they're able to prove negligence against a site owner and suffer an injury, and the site is uninsured, that's double stupidity on the part of the site owner/operator (1. to be uninsured and 2. to be negligent in some way). In such case, tough shít.

Originally Posted by Inari

Insurance is there to protect the operator, not to protect you. Liability and negligence are two key words in any claim. If you are hurt or injured, and it was not through any fault of your own, nor through any accepted risk, then you are entitled to compensation

Absolutely Inari - couldn't agree more. This isn't about being covered so some little scrote can claim off you (thereby somehow providing him with a free cash injection off the back of your no doubt expensive premium), it's about protecting yourself from the inevitable scumbag who will come along and try to do you at some stage. You're missing the point entirely here. That's me looking at it from the perspective of a site operator.

From a players perspective I'd rather know the place was insured - just as much as there are no doubt players out there who'd have few qualms about taking a claim (though few I'd say, as I don't think airsofters are as much that way inclined as the gen pop) there are equally sites out there that don't exactly engender tremendous confidence in their safety or insurance arrangements. I've been to some - I haven't gone back.

To be clear, I've spent ten years doing defence work to defend against claims - mostly public liability of the sort that deals with the sorts of issues you could have on an airsoft site. I'm no friend of insurance claimant - I'm too cynical and I've seen too much bullshít over the years. Brian - I'm posting up here to give a bit of free guidance, not to have a go at you or any site owner. I'm also trying to forewarn people so that they stick to the more reputable sites - i.e., that they don't go and make the mistakes I did when I was starting out.

Anyways - happy bank holiday weekend fellow airsoft fiends - rant over.

[Sam Fisher]

This maybe useful.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...php?p=68779924

[whyiotta]

i didnt realise i would case such a debate, as one person as stated already i have seen other businesses display their insurance certs, cro cert etc, just wondering its not done here in fact if you are a registered company by law you have to display your company registeration cert in a public place.

Airsoft reloaded you said that if someone asked to see your insurance cert you would refuse to show it that again is against the law, What have you to hide, don't be afraid to show it but you should be proud to boast that you actually have insurance. If somebody wnated to sue you the last thing they would do would announce to you oh can i see your insurance cert they will act totally normal and only when they fall down your stairs or kick in a door and twist their ankle then they will let you know about it and a nice letter show arrive shortly too,

Everybody thinks that the waiver passes all blame, they are not worth the paper its printed on all it is a piece of paper that makes a lot of people think "ah well sure i signed the waiver, nothing i can do", its the same as if you park your car in a private car park and you see the signs "cars parked at owners risk" eh not so if you have payed for secure parking you can sue for any damages to your causes while you have paided for your car to be securely parked. Trust me on this i know as a fact

I'm sure most sites ahve insurance you would be dumb not too all i ask is that you display it, if not on site why not even on your website such as insurance provided by ***** whatever insurance company.

I personally have got whiplash from a site because of their half barn doors left open you know who i'm talking about but personally i didnt sue not because it was my fault in fact if a health & saftey officer visited the site they would insisit that half door be left fully open but because i know that a insurance claim would possibly close the site and ruin the sport and i'm sure i'm not alone none of us want to distroy the sport we just want to have fun

[Inari]

As I previously mentioned, some insurance companies explicitly say to their clients NOT to display or allude to being insured, as people are less likely to claim when it affects the person directly, as opposed to going through an insurance company.

In airsoft, and most things, there is what is called accepted risk. Airsoft has the accepted risk of running around (tripping, falling, holes & hazards), getting shot (that lone BB doing damage etc), and more of the same. Waivers etc are part of the terms and conditions of insurance policies that show you are being responsible by informing your customers of the risks involved.

If an accident occurs, you have to hold the site operator responsible and prove negligence in order to make a successful claim. If they were not negligent, then it will normally fall under 'Accepted risk'.

Public Liability insurance is, as far as I am aware, required by law for any public access building/land, and is normally in place by the land owner. If something like a roof falls on top of you, then this is not your fault, nor is it down to the negligence of the site operator, and thus falls under the public liability insurance policy.

[MerryDespot]

Originally Posted by Inari

.
If an accident occurs, you have to hold the site operator responsible and prove negligence in order to make a successful claim. If they were not negligent, then it will normally fall under 'Accepted risk'.

And people have to take responsibility for their own actions. So, you injured yourself on a site then? Yeah? Aaaannnd where was the negligence? What's that kind sir, you were unable to prove any? Really? Well tough break there then my friend - insurance is not to hand you a lob of cash simply because you've been injured, despite what people seem to believe in this country. It is to provide cover in the event of an operative clause under the policy - such as negligence in the case of a public liability policy or clause under a master policy.

But - bottom line - people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

[Airsoft Reloded]

Originally Posted by whyiotta

Airsoft reloaded you said that if someone asked to see your insurance cert you would refuse to show it that again is against the law, What have you to hide, don't be afraid to show it but you should be proud to boast that you actually have insurance. If somebody wnated to sue you the last thing they would do would announce to you oh can i see your insurance cert they will act totally normal and only when they fall down your stairs or kick in a door and twist their ankle then they will let you know about it and a nice letter show arrive shortly too,

Untill you have run a business and had people trying bogus claims on you I don't think you can speak definitively here. The main two things you have to think are, get the rent and protect the assets after that its all gravy.

Originally Posted by Inari

As I previously mentioned, some insurance companies explicitly say to their clients NOT to display or allude to being insured, as people are less likely to claim when it affects the person directly, as opposed to going through an insurance company.

Which is exactly what we have been told from day one, when someone takes the risk day to day, puts thier money and time into running a site and has a clue about any of it then I'll listen to how they think I should run mine.

[IrishRatticus72]

Having worked in the retail sector for 22 years, for some of the country's largest retailers, I can speak from experience regarding lawsuits from the public.
When under the employment of previous employers, we were always explicitly told to never discuss insurance liability with customers, and to instead direct them to the ombudsman for further information.
Trust me, having witnessed potential claimants setting up accidents, it does beggar belief the extent some knob ends will go to.

[MerryDespot]

I once went out to interview a farmer who'd had some guy who'd been painting one of his barns fall off and break a leg.

He asked me what I thought the claimant would get out of his claim - unfortunately the farmer was liable - so I told him. It was a lot of money.

The farmer just looked at me and said "next time I'll just get the shotgun, finish the guy off and bury him in a lime pit". There wasn't a glimmer of humour in the guys eyes.

Let's just say I was really careful when walking back to my car to make sure I didn't trip over anything....

[IrishRatticus72]

Originally Posted by MerryDespot

I once went out to interview a farmer who'd had some guy who'd been painting one of his barns fall off and break a leg.

He asked me what I thought the claimant would get out of his claim - unfortunately the farmer was liable - so I told him. It was a lot of money.

The farmer just looked at me and said "next time I'll just get the shotgun, finish the guy off and bury him in a lime pit". There wasn't a glimmer of humour in the guys eyes.

Let's just say I was really careful when walking back to my car to make sure I didn't trip over anything....

Pfff, well, what really can you say to that.
"take your hits" would take on a whole new meaning.........