Boards.ie uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Click here to find out more x
Post Reply  
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
06-05-2011, 15:42   #46
KH25
Registered User
 
KH25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi View Post
It was on the HEAR scheme til about 2007. No idea why it was taken off because the results were going down and from what I could see the "socio-economic" status or whatever you wish to call it of students seemed to be getting worse. In my year I think 2 people and one repeat got over 500 points. As it happens though up til maybe 5 years ago the standard of the teachers in it was absolutely excellent, unfortunately there's been quite a few retirements since then.
The Leaving Certificate is a remarkably easy exam to do quite well in in my opinion, hard work (for most people, not me ) is far more important than teaching or equipment.
Yeah, you need to work hard theres no arguing with that. But a student can only do so much themselves and after that they need good teachers and good environments to be taught in. Not every teacher is going to be perfect thats a given but it is much harder for a teacher to assist students when a class has 30 or more in it as there's just not enough time for it.
I had some absolutely fantastic teachers while I was at school but they weren't helped by poor funding and facilities.
KH25 is offline  
Advertisement
06-05-2011, 15:45   #47
amacachi
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by g'em View Post
There's no points requirements for entry but you do need to show a level of proficiency in certain subjects i.e. you can't enter the Science stream if you haven't got at least a C in pass Maths iirc.
A C in OL maths passes for proficiency now?

Quote:
You apply via the CAO and your end of year marks are translated into points and that dictates whether you get a place or not but I guess you could argue that the points are kind of reduced - but then that's because you do an extra year on top of the Leaving so it balances out.
What's the formula for the points? Just out of interest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthnxbai View Post
Ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but how does someone get 17k a year?


I know BTEA can add up to a fair bit, if you're mature and stuff, but that's by FAR not what the majority of people get.

I went straight from secondary school to college and I'm on the full maintenance grant and I get €1300 a year.
A mature student who had spent a year on the dole before college would be entitled to the full non-adjacent rate plus the top-up plus the BTEA, coming to about 17k a year. They got rid of that just before I started though, fcukers.
amacachi is offline  
06-05-2011, 15:46   #48
amacachi
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KH25 View Post
Yeah, you need to work hard theres no arguing with that. But a student can only do so much themselves and after that they need good teachers and good environments to be taught in. Not every teacher is going to be perfect thats a given but it is much harder for a teacher to assist students when a class has 30 or more in it as there's just not enough time for it.
I had some absolutely fantastic teachers while I was at school but they weren't helped by poor funding and facilities.
I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed.
amacachi is offline  
06-05-2011, 15:46   #49
28064212
Registered User
 
28064212's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Here
Posts: 6,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by g'em View Post
Ah fair enough, does that apply to students who go through the Foundation Course too?
Not that I know of, HEAR and the Foundation Course are separate. I don't know what supports are available to Foundation grads

Quote:
Originally Posted by g'em View Post
And don't you still have to apply for those extra's? As in they aren't guaranteed but you have to apply for them and be selected?
Once you're accepted for HEAR, those are available to you as part of it
28064212 is offline  
06-05-2011, 15:47   #50
kthnxbai
Registered User
 
kthnxbai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi View Post
A C in OL maths passes for proficiency now?


What's the formula for the points? Just out of interest?

A mature student who had spent a year on the dole before college would be entitled to the full non-adjacent rate plus the top-up plus the BTEA, coming to about 17k a year. They got rid of that just before I started though, fcukers.
So, you're complaining about the money and assistance that some people get, yet you would have taken it yourself?

So you're just being bitter about it, then?
kthnxbai is offline  
Advertisement
06-05-2011, 15:48   #51
Tragedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,822
Send a message via Yahoo to Tragedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by g'em View Post
There's no points requirements for entry but you do need to show a level of proficiency in certain subjects i.e. you can't enter the Science stream if you haven't got at least a C in pass Maths iirc.
Yup, but I was eligible for entry to a 485 point course with ~235 points as a mature. TAP isn't any different to the best of my knowledge.

Quote:
The free fees have nothing to do with TAP though right?
Sorry, meant to say free registration fees*

Quote:
And it's understood that even if you didn't get the points the year you do in TAP will partially make up for this and bring you to a level of competency alongside 'regular' entry students.
I think the point is that there's plenty of people from middle class/lower middle class backgrounds who would be just as capable and apt as TAP/HEAR entrants, if also given a chance.

Quote:
Aren't Matures also interviewed for places as well?
Mostly, depends on circumstances, history and your application. I wrote quite a long personal essay/biography and it was sufficient to get me in without an interview.


Quote:
You apply via the CAO and your end of year marks are translated into points and that dictates whether you get a place or not but I guess you could argue that the points are kind of reduced - but then that's because you do an extra year on top of the Leaving so it balances out.
To the best of my knowledge, they aren't translated to points.
What happens is theres a quota for TAP/HEAR/Mature Students and you're benchmarked against other applicants, not normal entry students.
I think it's quite rare for people who successfully complete the access programme to not be offered a place, in most colleges it's guaranteed.
Tragedy is offline  
06-05-2011, 15:48   #52
kthnxbai
Registered User
 
kthnxbai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi View Post
I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed.
Ok well, which subjects are these now? And since they're apparently all so easy, I'm assuming that you got A1s in all of them, yeah?

What did you go on to do in college out of interest?
kthnxbai is offline  
06-05-2011, 15:49   #53
KH25
Registered User
 
KH25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,302
Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi View Post
I can think of 4 subjects I did where teaching was next to unnecessary and one other where about 2 months of teaching would have sufficed.
CSPE for junior cert doesn't count

Fair play to you if that was the case, but a lot of others would need to be taught.

Last edited by KH25; 06-05-2011 at 15:52.
KH25 is offline  
(2) thanks from:
06-05-2011, 15:57   #54
g'em
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 20,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by 28064212 View Post
Not that I know of, HEAR and the Foundation Course are separate. I don't know what supports are available to Foundation grads
Ah grand, I was referring specifically to the Foundation course - those students are treated as any other student would be.

Quote:
Once you're accepted for HEAR, those are available to you as part of it
So you have to be first accepted to HEAR and meet criteria for it? I'm just trying to point out that stuff isn't "thrown at" these students as has been suggested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragedy View Post
Yup, but I was eligible for entry to a 485 point course with ~235 points as a mature. TAP isn't any different to the best of my knowledge.
But with the TAP foundation course you do an extra foundation eyar so although you may get in on lower points you also do an extra year of learning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragedy
I think the point is that there's plenty of people from middle class/lower middle class backgrounds who would be just as capable and apt as TAP/HEAR entrants, if also given a chance.
Very possibly, but that's the nature of the points race. There's not many people in the TAP foundation course - 50 get accepted, 25 matures and 25 young adults, not all complete, not all go on to University but I'm getting the impression think that TAP students are somehow stealing the places of other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tragedy
To the best of my knowledge, they aren't translated to points.
What happens is theres a quota for TAP/HEAR/Mature Students and you're benchmarked against other applicants, not normal entry students.
I think it's quite rare for people who successfully complete the access programme to not be offered a place, in most colleges it's guaranteed.
I think that's changed in the last 12 months. And I'd definitely argue that you're guaranteed a place via TAP - you still have to work your year and get your marks, it's not an easy backdoor option. I don't think os anyway

Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi View Post
A C in OL maths passes for proficiency now?
It is when you're applying for a foundation course where you'll spend a year being brought up to the same standard as other students. If you don't meet that standard you can't apply for your course. You still need to meet the CAO requirements at the end of the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi
What's the formula for the points? Just out of interest?
I'm not at liberty to say
g'em is offline  
Advertisement
06-05-2011, 15:59   #55
amacachi
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthnxbai View Post
So, you're complaining about the money and assistance that some people get, yet you would have taken it yourself?

So you're just being bitter about it, then?
Of course I would have taken it, I'm a human being and self-interest is ingrained in us. What's unfair when others have to support someone else's self-interest. I shouldn't be getting what I'm getting now, but of course I'll take it. If there had been a loans system in place for fees I would still have gone to college because I'm not an idiot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthnxbai View Post
Ok well, which subjects are these now? And since they're apparently all so easy, I'm assuming that you got A1s in all of them, yeah?

What did you go on to do in college out of interest?
Geography is remarkably easy, as is Biology. Economics I understood intuitively and Business is a joke. There's 4. I did three of them and got Bs in all of them, literally did no studying whatsoever and did maybe 30% of the homework we got through 5th and 6th year.

Currently in second year of Science. Will most likely be back in August, much harder to wing it in college.
amacachi is offline  
06-05-2011, 16:01   #56
amacachi
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by g'em View Post
It is when you're applying for a foundation course where you'll spend a year being brought up to the same standard as other students. If you don't meet that standard you can't apply for your course. You still need to meet the CAO requirements at the end of the day.
Again I'm mainly talking about a specific case but it makes me wonder about the literacy standards in one of the other foundation programmes. (Not science.)

Quote:
I'm not at liberty to say
Didn't think so.
amacachi is offline  
06-05-2011, 16:03   #57
Tragedy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,822
Send a message via Yahoo to Tragedy
Quote:
Originally Posted by g'em View Post
But with the TAP foundation course you do an extra foundation eyar so although you may get in on lower points you also do an extra year of learning.
Which is great, and successful - again, I think the issue a few people have is that it's only available to just "poor" people.


Quote:
Very possibly, but that's the nature of the points race. There's not many people in the TAP foundation course - 50 get accepted, 25 matures and 25 young adults, not all complete, not all go on to University but I'm getting the impression think that TAP students are somehow stealing the places of other people.
The points race everyone competes in, except TAP/HEAR(and HEAR is the issue for me, I don't have a problem with TAP past the criteria being based on paper statistics/numbers and not looking at the real situation of those applying).

Quote:
I think that's changed in the last 12 months. And I'd definitely argue that you're guaranteed a place via TAP - you still have to work your year and get your marks, it's not an easy backdoor option. I don't think os anyway
According to the website, anything over 50% and you're golden. 50% for a foundation year isn't asking particularly much.

For example, UCD guarantees places to Access graduates if they achieve over 60% in their Access year - and UCD are far more stringent when it comes to Access/Mature Students.
Tragedy is offline  
06-05-2011, 16:06   #58
kthnxbai
Registered User
 
kthnxbai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by amacachi View Post
Of course I would have taken it, I'm a human being and self-interest is ingrained in us. What's unfair when others have to support someone else's self-interest. I shouldn't be getting what I'm getting now, but of course I'll take it. If there had been a loans system in place for fees I would still have gone to college because I'm not an idiot.

Geography is remarkably easy, as is Biology. Economics I understood intuitively and Business is a joke. There's 4. I did three of them and got Bs in all of them, literally did no studying whatsoever and did maybe 30% of the homework we got through 5th and 6th year.

Currently in second year of Science. Will most likely be back in August, much harder to wing it in college.
Well why are you being so offensive to people who are getting government funding? Would you have hated yourself if you'd gotten more assistance?

And I'm not just looking out for my own self-interest. It is MUCH better for the entire economy for me to go to college and get an education and get a decent job at the end of all this and pay taxes and the like.

So, you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to an education. I personally think it's something that everyone should have the opportunity to avail of. This is why I think it's right for the government to provide education just like it would for housing or healthcare.

The only one of the 4 subjects that you listed above that I did for my LC was biology. And as much as I'll admit that I did not struggle at all with the subject (I did get an A though) I don't think it's true to say that it's only 2 months of work for the majority of students.

Also, just from your last statement, it doesn't sound like you work very much. You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to go to college and appreciate it a bit more.
kthnxbai is offline  
06-05-2011, 16:15   #59
amacachi
Closed Account
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 23,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kthnxbai View Post
Well why are you being so offensive to people who are getting government funding? Would you have hated yourself if you'd gotten more assistance?
You're reading disagreement as offensiveness, I can't control how someone reads my posts. I don't hate anyone for taking anything from the government, I hate that it's available.

Quote:
And I'm not just looking out for my own self-interest. It is MUCH better for the entire economy for me to go to college and get an education and get a decent job at the end of all this and pay taxes and the like.
Really now, is 90% of the reason you're going to college not to improve your situation and that of a possible future family? The economic argument is something I disagree with as well but it may be for another thread. People should pay for their own things and shouldn't have to pay more for making use of what they get/make/do, as will be the case if a graduate tax rather than loans system is introduced.

Quote:
So, you don't seem to think that everyone is entitled to an education. I personally think it's something that everyone should have the opportunity to avail of. This is why I think it's right for the government to provide education just like it would for housing or healthcare.
Everyone should be entitled to the opportunity of having an education. Some people don't want it, some aren't very good at it and some can't see the wood for the trees.

Quote:
The only one of the 4 subjects that you listed above that I did for my LC was biology. And as much as I'll admit that I did not struggle at all with the subject (I did get an A though) I don't think it's true to say that it's only 2 months of work for the majority of students.
I wasn't saying it was a couple of months of work for students. Other than photosynthesis and metabolism and a couple of other bits and pieces the huge majority of the course is simply reading and remembering things, there's nothing to understand or concept to unlock. I was saying that there is little "teaching" needed for much of the course.

Quote:
Also, just from your last statement, it doesn't sound like you work very much. You should be thankful that you have the opportunity to go to college and appreciate it a bit more.
I'm probably the laziest bastard I've ever known. Even smackheads make an effort to get drugs, when I was doing them I had to make no effort.
I'm thankful I have the chance to go to college and do appreciate it. However I've got several major beefs with how the education system in this country works and I should have been finished a long time ago. It's only the next two years that count on the degree so I'll start working then.
amacachi is offline  
06-05-2011, 16:19   #60
starling.
Registered User
 
starling.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fo Real View Post
Can't get enough points or just couldn't be arsed studying? No problem, move into the council flats on Pearse St and you're guaranteed a place in Trinners.
Er... That's not how it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fo Real View Post
And yet the college will still wastefully squander funds on needless expenses like class rep training and ethnic minority societies.
This is completely irrelevant to your main 'argument' and false to boot. The class rep training is paid for by the SU, not the college. Societies are given money from the CSC, not the college.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fo Real View Post
Instead I predict another influx of "cash cow" students from Malaysia and India who don't integrate into college life at all.
Why do you say that foreign people don't integrate into college life at all? That's not something I've ever come across, and you don't seem to be a very good source on that point since your vitriolic rant leads me to doubt that you have very many international student friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fo Real View Post
Can Trinity's rep fall any further?
With people like you, undoubtedly.

It's important to increase access to university for obvious reasons. Unfortunately everyone is not privy to the same opportunities in life and programs like this help to even the playing field.
starling. is offline  
(2) thanks from:
Post Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Remove Text Formatting
Bold
Italic
Underline

Insert Image
Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text
 
Decrease Size
Increase Size
Please sign up or log in to join the discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Share Tweet