[Amhran Nua]

Originally Posted by feicim

That was not my point (at all, not sure why you brought it up in this context).

The study you cite is from a moronic "scientific racist" in the 19th century sense, bluntly. Any and every piece of tripe that comes out of Lynn should be discarded at this point, or at the very least treated with extreme scepticism from the outset, in much the same way as you would treat a KKK/neo nazi joint funded study.

Originally Posted by feicim

But the correlation of IQ and wealth on european countries pretty well matches the economic and political realities of real life today in Europe. (greece, ireland, portugal at the bottom, Germany on top). That is the point that I was making.

IQ tests Do Not Work Like That. When they work at all.

[later12]

Originally Posted by Fo Real

one sixth of the island is ruled by the UK, while the remainder is ruled by the Catholic church and a selection of gombeens.

Gombeens, fine, but The Catholic Church? Seriously, you would say that the Catholic Church shares governance with politicians? What decade are you living in?

[Kaiser2000]

As I said over in the "Where's Gormley" thread, the biggest problem we have is that we are indeed too young as a nation and too parochial and greedy as individuals to be let at the controls.

People here have said it's our political system, but the fact is that it's embedded at every level of society - be it the civil/public sector, the Gardai, eircom, whatever - everything is run to this "ah sure it'll be grand" mentallity and the response you get will always depend on who you get on the day.

We (as a people) are too busy trying to screw each other over or get one over on "the man" whilst showing off our (credit-fuelled) wares to the neighbours that the concept of acting in "the greater good" never comes into it. The political system, and personalities it throws up, is merely a product of this, not the cause.

Of course those same people who harp on about "the Brits" and "800 years", are probably the same ones who follow English football teams, shop in British high street chain stores, and watch all the English soaps.

The fact is that culturally we have a lot more in common with our UK neighbours than our European mainland counterparts, but ultimately it's an academic debate as, in the age of globalisation and the common EU market, the stakes are much higher and the decisions we've made have far wider implications than they would have even 20 years ago - hence why the important decisions have been taken away from us by our EU and IMF paymasters under the guise of "saving" us with a bailout.

Thanks to Irish greed and shortsightedness, and the decisions made by a handful of men (and a few token women) whose mandate to govern surely must have been shredded beyond any doubt when they signed off on the bank guarantee, we no longer have control over our country's destiny.
That'll be decided by unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels and it'll be the next generation(s) of Irish people that will have to clear up the mess that we've made.

Ultimately then, Irish independence now isn't worth the paper it was written on and THAT is surely the best evidence that we weren't/aren't ready for it.

[Anonymous1987]

Originally Posted by feicim

His methods may have flaws depending on the context of what you are trying to prove.

I'm not talking about immigrants or africans or women or any of these things you mention. That was not my point (at all, not sure why you brought it up in this context).

But the correlation of IQ and wealth on european countries pretty well matches the economic and political realities of real life today in Europe. (greece, ireland, portugal at the bottom, Germany on top). That is the point that I was making.

Standardising across populations and societies might make the results more relative but economic and political realities don't understand or work to suit the principles of standardised relative realities.

Correlation does not imply causation. Even if causation was at work here which direction would causation work? Perhaps economic performance drives IQ levels through better educational facilities and a higher standard of living?

[Sand]

As I said over in the "Where's Gormley" thread, the biggest problem we have is that we are indeed too young as a nation and too parochial and greedy as individuals to be let at the controls.

Its 2010. [EDIT] Doh!..2011[/EDIT] Ireland is no longer able to use the "young" nation excuse. There are younger nations out there who havent got themselves into this sort of mess. West and East Germany reunified only in 1990 for example, and it wasnt all smiles and sunshine.

As for the parochialism and greed, they are human traits, not uniquely Irish traits.

How do other nations achieve better outcomes when faced with the same challenges?

People here have said it's our political system, but the fact is that it's embedded at every level of society - be it the civil/public sector, the Gardai, eircom, whatever - everything is run to this "ah sure it'll be grand" mentallity and the response you get will always depend on who you get on the day.

Roy Keane. Michael O'Leary. Shane Ross. There are many Irish people, famous and anonymously doing their jobs every day who would disprove the generalisations made about the "ah sure it'll be grand" Irish mentality.

Yes, I am sure examples exist and most of them vote Fianna Fail, but thats human nature which exists in all countries and political systems. The key difference is that well governed nations have strong systems of government which acknowledge the threat of corruption and populism overwhelming good policymaking considerations and work to prevent that.

What we have is weak system of government, where the winner takes all. Power is concentrated in the hands of a few dozen cabinet members and civil servants and they can simply do whatever they like without any meaningful oversight or criticism. Should we be surprised that such a system leads to disastrously bad governance?