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20-06-2010, 09:17   #31
troubleshooter
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Originally Posted by Glenshane Pass View Post
Which is it? Its both as far as I am concerned. There is no doubt the Volunteers had their human rights violated. A very large document was available online, the report of the European Court of Human Rights. The SAS were brutal. At Drumnakilly an SAS operative jumped up on the bonet, then onto the roof of the target car, and fired about fifty rounds into the sunroof in some act of sick bravado.

Some of the families of the Volunteers and indeed their comrades fully accept they were in a state of war and as such was just a bad day for the Army. But its the circumstances in/by which they were killed that becomes an issue.

I think anyone who argues that there was no shoot to kill policy at Loughgall is seriously delluded.

And just to add, no one in the Republican movement subscribes to the claims of fire over the water at Warrenpoint - that never happened. Just to clarify.

So why is there a republican mural showing " volunteers" firing down on the scene at warrenpoint?


If we accept the republican claims the PIRA were soldiers in a war, then they are guilty of warcrimes, ie deliberatly targetting civilans.


"While 1978 saw a decrease in terrorist activity it also saw their violence sink to a new low, with the murder of a father and daughter. The vicious murder of William Gordon, on February 8th 1978 shocked the country. A part time UDR lance-corporal aged 41 married with 3 children, was murdered along with his ten year old daughter Leslie when an IRA booby trap bomb blew up underneath his car. His seven year old son Richard was blown out of the vehicle onto the footpath. This shows the real face and nature of Francis Hughes – Hughes the child killer. In his crazed spree of terror he gave no regard for life whether that of an elderly lady or a young child, to him they were legitimate targets in a campaign fuelled by sectarian hatred."

What about these childrens human rights? why do demos or campaigns for their justice by republicans? is it because it was ok for republicans to murder, but if shot in the process it became a human rights violation, how cowardly.


As for south Armagh, it was never a no go zone for the British army, this is another lie, the area had more troops based there then any other part of the north.

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20-06-2010, 10:11   #32
Glenshane Pass
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So why is there a republican mural showing " volunteers" firing down on the scene at warrenpoint?
Why not? Its a commemorative mural. Propaganda if you will.

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If we accept the republican claims the PIRA were soldiers in a war, then they are guilty of warcrimes, ie deliberatly targetting civilans.
Why would they have targatted civilians, what would it achieve?

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"While 1978 saw a decrease in terrorist activity it also saw their violence sink to a new low, with the murder of a father and daughter. The vicious murder of William Gordon, on February 8th 1978 shocked the country. A part time UDR lance-corporal aged 41 married with 3 children, was murdered along with his ten year old daughter Leslie when an IRA booby trap bomb blew up underneath his car. His seven year old son Richard was blown out of the vehicle onto the footpath. This shows the real face and nature of Francis Hughes – Hughes the child killer. In his crazed spree of terror he gave no regard for life whether that of an elderly lady or a young child, to him they were legitimate targets in a campaign fuelled by sectarian hatred."
Its unfortunate to see you have quoted Willie Frazer - famous for his rants against 'dirty smelly taigs' (see video on youtube) and also for associating with Loyalist paramilitaries. Why would you quote him in all fairness? Francis Hughes was an exceptional volunteer, admitted even by SAS in a couple of books (of which one was killed in the last gun battle).


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As for south Armagh, it was never a no go zone for the British army, this is another lie, the area had more troops based there then any other part of the north.
Aye, couped up in heavily fortified bases, afraid of their ****e to leave.
South Armagh, parts of Tyrone and Fermanagh were once a no go area for soldiers on the ground. Fact.

The policy of harrassing mourners and disrupting republican funerals wasn't a possibility when Volunteers openly patrolled country roads, setup checkpoints, and took over Carrickmore village in the late 1970s. There is a multitude of photos and videos to this fact in the various republican exhibitions across these counties showing checkpoints and other patrols through villages and towns in broad daylight.

Of course the army or indeed the police could have entered these areas, in that sense they were no 'no go', but they would no doubt have suffered casulties. Actions speak louder than words. If there were APCs and troops moving through South Armagh on a regular basis then I would have conceded that it wasn't a 'no go' area. Similarly, today, if I see police patrolling areas of Fermanagh as they are supposed to, then I will concede that these areas are not 'no go'.

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20-06-2010, 10:26   #33
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The bomb which killed the child above had Hughes signature, the PIRA even admitted they targetted civilians, Birmingham pub bombings, various bombs of Protestant pubs in NI, hotels, even the gunning down of working men who were lined up taken out of their mini bus and shot.

If we accept they were soldiers of an army, then they are guilty of warcrimes.

South Armagh was never a "no go zone". Soldiers moved on foot and by helo, it was the roads which were not used. It had more troops there then any other part of the province.

Claiming soldiers never left their base is just more republican propeganda, patrols often went out for 10 days moving through the countryside on foot checking on PIRA known faces and keeping an eye on isolated Protesant farmers etc, who were ubder threat.

http://militarymemories.co.uk/tours/nireland.html


My first six week tour of South Armagh was a totally different experience. In this part of Ireland it was deemed to dangerous to drive round in Landrovers, so we had to be helicoptered in to our patrol area; patrols were carried out daily. We learnt how to 'fast rope' (slide down a rope) out of a helicopter hovering at around 60ft. We would patrol the whole of South Armagh, areas like, Crossmaglen, Newtownhamilton, Forkhill and Newry. During this period I was promoted to Lance Corporal and took command of a four man team.

South Armagh is a nice part of the world, however, the locals do not take kindly to the British Army being there. On one stretch of road there is the infamous sign 'sniper at work'; South Armagh has seen some of the bloodiest fighting during the troubles. Fortunately for us, and the local civilians, there was relative peace during our time out there. Apart from the odd bomb threat or the finding of dead bodies, nothing much happened.



Are you denying the fact there were permenant and mobile VCPs/vehicle check points across South Armagh?

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20-06-2010, 10:33   #34
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The bomb which killed the child above had Hughes signature, the PIRA even admitted they targetted civilians, Birmingham pub bombings, various bombs of Proteastant pubs in NI, hotels, even the gunning down of working men who were lined up taken out of their mini bus and shot.

If we accept they were soldiers of an army, then they are guilty of warcrimes.

South Armagh was never a "no go zone". Soldiers moved on foot and by helo, it was the roads which were not used. It had more troops there then any other part of the province.

Are you denying the fact their were permenant VCPs/vehicle check points South Armagh?
Can you link me to the statement in which the IRA 'admitted' to deliberately targetting civilians? Statements are all over the internet (CAIN archive).
The republican movement have called for an international process whereby people are held to account for their actions, no matter what side they were on. The republican movement remain the only ones to have called for this. There are those out there who was to hide the truth. And could you also explain the 'Protestant pubs' aswell as answer my previous post as to what would the IRA achieve by targetting civilians?

It seems you won't agree on the no go point, which is fair enough. It makes little odds. The people of these areas know full well republican guerrillas could move around almost freely without fear of running into Brit security forces because they wouldn't enter those areas. Fact.

EDIT: I'm not all that interested in 'Military Memories', but I'll have a read later on. I prefer to take the word of people on the ground, locals. What you deem 'republican propoganda' can also be applied to the various 'bad boy' soldier diary sites and books that exist.

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20-06-2010, 10:40   #35
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Can you link me to the statement in which the IRA 'admitted' to deliberately targetting civilians? Statements are all over the internet (CAIN archive).
The republican movement have called for an international process whereby people are held to account for their actions, no matter what side they were on. The republican movement remain the only ones to have called for this. There are those out there who was to hide the truth. And could you also explain the 'Protestant pubs' aswell as answer my previous post as to what would the IRA achieve by targetting civilians?

It seems you won't agree on the no go point, which is fair enough. It makes little odds. The people of these areas know full well republican guerrillas could move around almost freely without fear of running into Brit security forces because they wouldn't enter those areas. Fact.

Are you saying the Birmingham pub bombings did not target civilians

1971: Bomb demolishes crowded Belfast pub
At least 10 people, including a 13-year-old boy and a woman, have been killed and 17 injured after a bomb exploded in a crowded pub in Belfast.
The bomb is believed to have been placed near the front entrance of McGurk's Bar, in North Queen Street



The fact your claiming British army foot patrols did not patrol on a daily in areas you claim were out of bounds, marks you down as yet another armchair republican.

It was very rare the PIRA had more firepower the 12 man British army patrols or (P)VCP, a bigger danger was IEDs and Sinn Fein organised riots, were troops could quickly be outnumbered by violent and hostile civilians.

Heres an article on the repulsed attack on Derryard checkpoint, in an area you claim the British army did not have a presence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_...ard_checkpoint

The attack

The assault would involve the use of two 12.7mm DShK machine guns, 11 AK-47s, different kinds of grenades, and a flamethrower. The bulk of the flying column would be driven to the checkpoint on a makeshift armoured truck.[3] To assure widespread destruction, the column decided to detonate a van bomb after the initial surprise assault. The chosen target, a vehicle checkpoint at Derryard, near Rosslea, was manned by 8 soldiers of the 1st Battalion of the King's Own Scottish Borderers regiment and a member of the RUC.[1]

After launching a number of grenades (either RPGs or home made devices),[1] the IRA volunteers managed to break into the compound using the armour-plated lorry, supported by automatic fire and the flamethrower’s stream of fire. In the process they killed two soldiers, Pte James Houston and L/Cpl Michael Patterson. Cpl Law was severely wounded by shrapnel[4]and later airlifted for treatment. The defenders were forced to seek shelter in sangars, from where they fired into their own base.[1] The IRA unit left inside the complex a van loaded with 400-lb (182 kg) of Semtex, which failed to explode. The attack was finally repulsed by a Borderers section from the checkpoint that was patrolling nearby, with the support of a Wessex helicopter. The patrol fired more than 100 rounds.[1] The IRA column, at risk of being surrounded, then fled in the truck, possibly toward the border.[2][5]

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20-06-2010, 10:42   #36
Glenshane Pass
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Are you saying the Birmingham pub bombings did not target civilians

1971: Bomb demolishes crowded Belfast pub
At least 10 people, including a 13-year-old boy and a woman, have been killed and 17 injured after a bomb exploded in a crowded pub in Belfast.
The bomb is believed to have been placed near the front entrance of McGurk's Bar, in North Queen Street
Could you answer my posts apart from copying and pasting from random websites? I am well able to find this information myself, if I wanted to.
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20-06-2010, 10:50   #37
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Could you answer my posts apart from copying and pasting from random websites? I am well able to find this information myself, if I wanted to.

Heres where the PIRA took 11 protestant workmen off a bus and shot them, was this not an attack on civilans?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsmill_massacre

The following day, January 5, 1976, a Ford Transit mini-bus carried sixteen textile workers travelling home from work in Glenanne to Bessbrook along the Whitecross to Bessbrook road, of whom five were Catholics and eleven were Protestants. Four of the Catholics got out at Whitecross, while the remainder continued on the road to Bessbrook.[15] At this point, the coach was stopped by a group of approximately twelve armed men waiting on the road. At first, the workers assumed that they were being stopped and searched by a British Army or RUC checkpoint, and when ordered to line up beside the bus, they obeyed. However, at this point, the gunmen ordered the only Catholic, Richard Hughes, to step forward. Hughes' workmates thought then that the armed men were loyalists, come to kill Hughes and tried to stop him from identifying himself, however, when he stepped forward, he was told, "Get down the road and don't look back".[16]

The remaining eleven men were shot, with Armalite rifles, SLRs, a 9mm pistol and an M1 carbine, a total of 136 rounds were fired in less than a minute. Ten men died at the scene, and one, Alan Black, survived despite having eighteen gunshot wounds

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20-06-2010, 19:06   #38
Glenshane Pass
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The fact your claiming British army foot patrols did not patrol on a daily in areas you claim were out of bounds, marks you down as yet another armchair republican.
How would that mark me down as an armchair republican? If anything it would mark me down as someone who knows what they're talking about, would it not? Really, how the **** would you know who I am or what I am?

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It was very rare the PIRA had more firepower the 12 man British army patrols or (P)VCP, a bigger danger was IEDs and Sinn Fein organised riots, were troops could quickly be outnumbered by violent and hostile civilians.
Lots of firepower, but unwise to confront in the 'conventional' sense.

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Heres an article on the repulsed attack on Derryard checkpoint, in an area you claim the British army did not have a presence.
Again, a presence in a heavily fortified base, which was annihilated by local guerrillas, never to be rebuilt. (The only time the flamethrower was used)

You can give up this 'armchair' behaviour, pasting stuff from websites. I have already stated I can find this if needs be. It doesn't make you any more intellgent either nor does it neccessarily make your points fact.

I'll ask the two questions again - and if you can't answer then I will presume you have no more intellectual capacity than to copy and paste wikipedia articles.

Where have the IRA 'admitted' targetting civilians?
What would targetting civilians achieve?

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20-06-2010, 19:14   #39
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Children please, i think ye lads have gone a tad off topic here with accusations of armchair republicans and all that.

As a few above have stated, circa 500 seems to be the general concensus here and with many people regarding active PIRA members. However taking into account sympathisers, the people who operated safehouses, various non-violent assistants(for the want of a better term) and i suppose even some contacts the numbers could be much higher. and if you believe everything you hear down the pub, about half of the Island was once a 'Ra man!!
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20-06-2010, 20:18   #40
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I'm inclined to agree. The original question has been asked, and answered.

NTM
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