[DePurpereWolf]

Originally Posted by scartman1

...
The following is a link to an independendent report carried out by Queens University College Belfast. It shows when coursing was stopped in the North of Ireland that hare numbers actually decreased while in the republic they actually increased, particularly in areas where Coursing Clubs were active.

This reports demonstrates the link between coursing and conservation.
http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/Quercus/N...ml#d.en.184184

This link you describe is that there are more hares in conservations due to active population control. So, in some sense the ICC 'breeds' hares to course with, nothing I would be surprised about.
It goes on by declaring that if there are changes in the legal status of coursing in Ireland, the conservation of the Irish hare would fall on the government and may necessitate an increase in subsidies.

The abstract from the paper:

Conflicts between field sports, animal welfare and species conservation are frequently contentious. In Ireland, the Irish Coursing Club (ICC) competitively tests the speed and agility of two greyhounds by using a live hare as a lure. Each coursing club is associated with a number of discrete localities, known as preserves, which are managed favourably for hares including predator control, prohibition of other forms of hunting such as shooting and poaching and the maintenance and enhancement of suitable hare habitat. We indirectly tested the efficacy of such management by comparing hare abundance within preserves to that in the wider countryside. In real terms, mean hare density was 18 times higher, and after controlling for variance in habitat remained 3 times higher, within ICC preserves than the wider countryside. Whilst we cannot rule out the role of habitat, our results suggest that hare numbers are maintained at high levels in ICC preserves either because clubs select areas of high hare density and subsequently have a negligible effect on numbers or that active population management positively increases hare abundance. The Irish hare Lepus timidus hibernicus Bell, 1837 is one of the highest priority species for conservation action in Ireland and without concessions for its role in conservation, any change in the legal status of hare coursing under animal welfare grounds, may necessitate an increase in Government subsidies for conservation on private land together with a strengthened capacity for legislation enforcement.

Digital object identifier (DOI):
10.4098/j.at.0001-7051.030.2009

I am not outright against coursing, and I don't feel that this is what the thread should be about. I believe the hares have a much better live than the greyhounds.
But you have to be correct about your point. Which is that with coursing, the population of hares is actively kept high by the coursers. This doesn't say anything about coursing being 'good' or 'bad'.

[Srameen]

Originally Posted by scartman1

Hares are generally taken from areas in which they thrive, generally the coursing clubs own preserves, and returned to same after the coursing meeting...I hope also that we are debunking any myths and untruths that are constantly being protrayed in relation to coursing.

I think you need to come into the real world. Taken from club preserves? On 2 Sunday mornings in a row (a few months back) I was surveying bird activity in pastureland when I met men who were catching Hares for coursing. There was no coursing Club preserve; indeed I know of no such thing in my division in the North East. Also, I have been to Coursing meets and Hares are certainly not returned to where they were caught around here. There maybe some clubs you know who do things "right" but please see that the picture you keep painting is not of the whole country by any stretch of the imagination.

Far from debunking any so-called myths you are fueling a platform to allow others show exactly what coursing is. I never gave it great thought (having been brought up in a coursing family) but your highlighting of the subject sparked me to consider it more and to make enquires on the subject among my collegues. I have come to the conclusion that for me it is cruel and unnecessary.

[Discodog]

Scartman:

You seem to think that there is this huge animal rights army with limitless resources. If this is true then would it not suggest that they have a lot of support ?. How could there be so much animal cruelty if there was this imagined army patrolling the land ?. The groups that promote awareness have influenced some people in the UK but the majority simply know that exploiting a dog, purely for entertainment & then casting it away is wrong. The situation in Ireland will slowly change as people become more aware.

There is no framework in the IGB. According to you owners can do as they like because of their supposed property rights. Do you really believe that there are 200,000 Greyhounds living happy lives here ?. That would be one for every 6 households. I live in a fair sized rural village & I am the only one with a pet Greyhound. You are right that the Pound situation is bad & the huge numbers of Greyhounds ending up there make it much worse. If Greyhound owners care so much why do so many Greyhounds die in the Pound ?. Why don't the caring Greyhound owners re-home them ?. Regarding property rights you imply that an owner can do as he likes yet you also claim that the owners care.

When a Greyhound is put down the Vet could easily supply a certificate but it isn't necessary. If the Industry suddenly suggested that lots of dogs had died of cancer no one would believe it. Give us the figures & we are perfectly capable of analysing them.

If you believe that it is easy to get information from the IGB why don't you prove it ?. Why have you failed to provide one single link to the IGB accounts, welfare spending, etc ?. You keep linking the fate of greyhounds to other breeds but there is a huge difference. You & the IGB tell us that the Industry is well regulated & that births are recorded. You use this as an argument to justify us giving €12 million of our hard earned money never mind the huge betting revenue. Your industry breeds 20,000 dogs every year when they know that only a small percentage of those dogs will ever race & then they cannot account for the fate of the rest.

If the figures were going to show the Industry in a good light they would be broadcast from the rooftops. We all use good numbers as PR & we hide the bad. If the IGB cannot provide basic information then it cannot argue that the Industry is well regulated. It is no longer acceptable for any publicly funded body to be self regulated as we have all seen the results. So justify your claims & give us some real numerical evidence ?.

[Srameen]

Well said Discodog. Scartman would have us believe that there is a huge Animal Rights lobby in Ireland. I have been involved with animals and Wildlife all my life - including professionally - and I can honestly say even when dealing with wildlife poisoning, crulety or killing cases I have never come across anybody from any organised Animal Rights groups. Yes there are animal welfare and animal rescue groups, but these are not the legions Scartman refers to. I believe he is trying to steer the boards towards a myth that such lawbreaking organisations are patrolling the Irish countryside, in an effort to deflect attention from the activities of some groups involved in blood sports. Regardless of my opinion on blood sports I take exception to him trying to brand those of us who love nature, and nurture it, as fanatics. Let's be honest if there are any Animal Rights groups (as portrayed by Scartman) in Ireland they are a very very small and inactive group. Certainly not worth the weight of words directed at them on this thread to date.

[scartman1]

Originally Posted by Srameen

Well said Discodog. Scartman would have us believe that there is a huge Animal Rights lobby in Ireland. I have been involved with animals and Wildlife all my life - including professionally - and I can honestly say even when dealing with wildlife poisoning, crulety or killing cases I have never come across anybody from any organised Animal Rights groups. Yes there are animal welfare and animal rescue groups, but these are not the legions Scartman refers to. I believe he is trying to steer the boards towards a myth that such lawbreaking organisations are patrolling the Irish countryside, in an effort to deflect attention from the activities of some groups involved in blood sports. Regardless of my opinion on blood sports I take exception to him trying to brand those of us who love nature, and nurture it, as fanatics. Let's be honest if there are any Animal Rights groups (as portrayed by Scartman) in Ireland they are a very very small and inactive group. Certainly not worth the weight of words directed at them on this thread to date.

I am concerned that your replies relating to my posts seem to continually miss the point and you strive to dismiss my postings as those of a crank. Please don't concern yourself as to my mental well being as I am a cheerful sort and can take your sling shots on the chin without flinching. However the problem is that readers need to be aware that Animal Rights, while small in number, are very adept at increasing their profile, thro constant propoganda as the following links will demonstrate. Srameens attempts to advise otherwise leads to people sticking their heads in the sand. While Srameen is correct that large numbers of them don't stalk the land, those few that do try to make their presence felt by using less that peaceful means and other media. At the national coursing meeting this year they arranged for a demonstration and while they only numbered 30 or so, compared with the 30,000 inside supporting, they are continually bombarding field sports and currently through their connections in the Green Party, inspite of their miniscule numbers, they are attempting to dictate government policy with regard to Animal Welfare. This not only affects field sports but also farming practices.

Nuala Fenlon, Claire O Donavan are well known activists in the Animal Rights Front and they are 2 of a four member Green Party Animal Welfare advisory commitee charged with drafting the upcoming Bills on The Ban on Carted Stag Hunting, The Dog Breeding Establishments Bill and the Animal Wellfare Bill. Another major contributer to Green Party Policy is Bernie Wright who is a life long animal Wrights activist with connections to the UK movement.


http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire/animalrights This group are very media savvy and promote various causes that are questionable to say the very least. Bernie Wright is very much involved with them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXkKbk_R8Is This is the kind of activites that she supports.

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2000/09...l_2/index.html. This is what the farmers think.


I will try and dig out a few more links for the public to consider, and perhaps you can judge for yourself whether Animal Rights have a foothold in Ireland or not.

[scartman1]

Originally Posted by DePurpereWolf

This link you describe is that there are more hares in conservations due to active population control. So, in some sense the ICC 'breeds' hares to course with, nothing I would be surprised about.
It goes on by declaring that if there are changes in the legal status of coursing in Ireland, the conservation of the Irish hare would fall on the government and may necessitate an increase in subsidies.

The abstract from the paper:


Digital object identifier (DOI):
10.4098/j.at.0001-7051.030.2009

I am not outright against coursing, and I don't feel that this is what the thread should be about. I believe the hares have a much better live than the greyhounds.
But you have to be correct about your point. Which is that with coursing, the population of hares is actively kept high by the coursers. This doesn't say anything about coursing being 'good' or 'bad'.

I'm glad that you read the report and found it interesting. I agree with your statement that it does not say coursing is good or bad in a moral sense, but it provides Independent evidence as to the link between coursing and conservation. I agree with your emphasis Which is that with coursing, the population of hares is actively kept high by the coursers. Whether this is right or wrong morally is another question.

The welfare of the Greyhounds that course is I admit another related issue which has basically been discussed at lenght between disco dog and You and I over a number of posts. I think we all are approaching it from different angles, but i believe your position and mine are more closely aligned in dealing with the welfare issues that arise from Greyhound Racing/Coursing than Discodogs position of banning it outright. I believe in the fact that we have an imperfect situation, (who does?) but we can work on it together.

[Srameen]

It has become clear that this is not a thread about Animal Rights activists but a simple Coursing/Stag Hunt V Anti Blood Sports groups or Hunt Saboteurs.

A few links to obscure websites and Youtube doesn't cut the mustard with me, I'm afraid. Even the article from the Journal emphasises that attempts by UK activists to hold a meeting here were boycotted by Irish Animal Welfare groups. Honestly, this is not an issue in Ireland. I'm not trying to personalise this. I simply want to state that the notion that Animal Rights groups are anything other than a small handful of individuals is absurd. Some posters obviously have given this a political slant but let's face it 99% of the people of Ireland have never considered such groups and are totally unaware of them due to their minute impact. Even within those who have a Nature/Environmental interest Animal Rights groups are alien and immaterial.
Mountains are certainly being made of Molehills here!
A straight forward debate on the merits, or otherwise, of Stag Hunting and Coursing would have been more appropriate and would probably have led to a more informative discussion - however it's too late for that now.

[scartman1]

Originally Posted by Srameen

It has become clear that this is not a thread about Animal Rights activists but a simple Coursing/Stag Hunt V Anti Blood Sports groups or Hunt Saboteurs..

Srameen
The title on the thread is The Frontline Animal Rights and Rural Ireland Debate. I think we have all followed the essence of the topic to date. Basically the Frontline program had a Green Senator Niall O Brollachain on in relation to defending the Green Party and Their intention to bring 2 Bills to the Dail. One relateed to the Ban on Carted Stag Hunting, and the Other to the Dog Breeding Establishments Bill. A portion of the audience siding with the minister contained many well known animal rights activists and a farmer representing Farmers against the Hunts, and those against the Bills contained representatives from RISE,(rural Ireland Says Enough), The IGB, The ICC, and the Hunt association of Ireland. I think that we have followed the basic thread quite well considering tha above.

Originally Posted by Srameen

A few links to obscure websites and Youtube doesn't cut the mustard with me, I'm afraid. Even the article from the Journal emphasises that attempts by UK activists to hold a meeting here were boycotted by Irish Animal Welfare groups. Honestly, this is not an issue in Ireland. I'm not trying to personalise this. I simply want to state that the notion that Animal Rights groups are anything other than a small handful of individuals is absurd. Some posters obviously have given this a political slant but let's face it 99% of the people of Ireland have never considered such groups and are totally unaware of them due to their minute impact. Even within those who have a Nature/Environmental interest Animal Rights groups are alien and immaterial.
Mountains are certainly being made of Molehills here! .

I would respectfully dissagree here, as , though I agree with your assertion that the Animal Rights people are few on the Ground, they have become involved in the Green Party, and given this parties involvement in the Government they are now striving to implement their objectives politically, and are working under the guise of animal welfare. Many of the audience on the Frontline program are active animal rights campaigners and even a quick sconce at their websites show them supporting the release of Mink from farms, and even carrying out this act. The evidence is clear that they have an agenda and are in a position to put the Ward Union out of business and the give the Greyhound industry and the Hunt Kennels a kick in the teeth by putting them under the scope of the DBEB.

I'm not alone in my concern and the size of the petition raised to date by the RISE will illustrate this.

I could and will post more links from reputable sources illustrating the connection between the government and the animal rights and how it is affecting our country and how it is run. The links posted to date which you state doesn't cut the mustard with you are in fact the sites of the Animal Rights people themselves, its their position in their own language, and the Farmers Journal is obviously a well known and respected media.

Originally Posted by Srameen

A straight forward debate on the merits, or otherwise, of Stag Hunting and Coursing would have been more appropriate and would probably have led to a more informative discussion - however it's too late for that now.

Its never too late discuss the above in more detail as it is still covered by the scope of the thread.
I was curious by your previous statement that you were prepared to support fishing yet saw coursing and the stag hunting as activities that should be banned. Surely this position lacks consistency, particularly when you consider that the objective of the latter is not to kill the animals where fishing does, and fishing does. Fishing where you catch and release is however very similar.

[tomybhoy]

Lets be fair, the antis are willing to portray themselves as pro animal welfare when in fact the animals are the last thing on their minds.
I have heard it more than once from antis saying they love nature when the anti philosophy would lead to the extinction to a number of species that are now thriving.
The hare population in the North is proof enough for people who really do love animals, the Green/anti policies are aspirational policies that will see the destruction of habitats and species on a scale we have not seen in Ireland in our life times.