[Sleepy]

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

Absolutely. But Creighton and Varadkar are a case in point.

Of what? People working their way up through a party?

I'm not on a witch hunt here. FG will most likely be getting my vote in the next election unless a better alternative emerges (even though I find the notion of Labour getting near government terrifying) I just can't stand by and watch FF pillage the coffers any longer.

[Red_Marauder]

Originally Posted by Amhran Nua

If they are such capable politicians, they should have no difficulty getting elected in another constituency.

Why should a councillor who lives in West Cork run in East Cork? You think it's in the best interests of a constituency to have outiders deciding internal politics for that region? You haven't thought this through, it doesn't make sense, but feel free to keep digging down.

Can you respond to my other question please, is Mr Kenny still holding down a permanent teaching position at this time?

I had to google it to find out, because I don't give a damn. Next time use google yourself

Link

Oh - and the answer is No.

[Red_Marauder]

Originally Posted by Sleepy

Of what? People working their way up through a party?

No, all of their previosu work with FG was part time, including the three years they spent as councillors. I don't think that's excessive. The chances are that Creighton in particular would have gotten elected even without that given her popularity in Dublin South East.

You can't please everyone. If you parachute in a candidate it's accused of being a cheap vote buyer, if you appoint a candidate whose spent three years as a councillor (a relatively tiny amount of time) people call it croneyism.

Sometimes the parties with no representatives at all have it too easy.

[Amhran Nua]

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

Why should a councillor who lives in West Cork run in East Cork? You think it's in the best interests of a constituency to have outiders deciding internal politics for that region? You haven't thought this through, it doesn't make sense, but feel free to keep digging down.

Local elections, fine, national elections shouldn't have anything to do with internal politics for a region. What is internal politics anyway?

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

I had to google it to find out, because I don't give a damn.

So hold on a minute, you didn't know whether or not the leader of the party you support with every single post was holding a permanent teaching position away from a young teacher in a time of soaring unemployment, and furthermore you didn't care?

Interesting order of priorities there.

Maybe its time to ask yourself which is more important to you, party or country.

[Red_Marauder]

Originally Posted by Amhran Nua

Local elections, fine

Ah look, make up your mind another time, it's probably all just Amhran Nua crazy rhetoric anyway

So hold on a minute, you didn't know whether or not the leader of the party you support with every single post was holding a permanent teaching position away from a young teacher in a time of soaring unemployment, and furthermore you didn't care?

Yes and yes. I didn't know and I don't care. As it happens, he doesn't have a teaching job.

I just don't know why you couldnt have found that out yourself, it takes about 2 mins on google.

[Amhran Nua]

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

Ah look, make up your mind another time, it's probably all just Amhran Nua crazy rhetoric anyway

Whats crazy is the parish pump "ah he came from a good family" political nonsense that has saddled the country with the crop we have in charge at the moment, and the party structures that enabled this to happen.

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

Yes and yes. I didn't know and I don't care.

Well, thats a pity.

[Red_Marauder]

Originally Posted by Amhran Nua

Whats crazy is the parish pump "ah he came from a good family" political nonsense that has saddled the country with the crop we have in charge at the moment, and the party structures that enabled this to happen.

Welcome to democracy, all the people won't all make the best decision, but they'll all make the democratic one.

[Amhran Nua]

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

Welcome to democracy, all the people won't all make the best decision, but they'll all make the democratic one.

The general idea behind democracy is that it doesn't turn into an aristocracy wherein blind loyalty to leaders you don't know much about is the norm.

[Red_Marauder]

Originally Posted by Amhran Nua

The general idea behind democracy is that it doesn't turn into an aristocracy wherein blind loyalty to leaders you don't know much about is the norm.

Sure, Ireland is an aristocracy. Very Clever Observation.

The idea behind a democracy is popular choice. If people want to vote for Willy O Dea or Enda Kenny or the great grandson of a TD who was the great great grandson of another MP, then it really is their own democratic business.

The alternative is a sort of chaperoned Seanad-esque electoral system where 'people who know better' install leaders as opposed to making them directly accountible to the people via popular election.

[Tommy Bateman]

Ah sure them FGers can hold nothing together, never mind the country through a crisis which is why the people love Lenny, because they know better. Not that they would have gotten my vote anyway, but this is really really showing me that they wouldn't get my vote even if they paid me. FG are a feckin joke.

[Amhran Nua]

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

The idea behind a democracy is popular choice.

So why do we need proportional representation, which among other things institutes a minimum voting threshold which restricts full democratic representation?

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

If people want to vote for Willy O Dea or Enda Kenny or the great grandson of a TD who was the great great grandson of another MP, then it really is their own democratic business.

And if Willy O'Dea or Enda Kenny are such great politicians, they won't need any unfair advantages bestowed on them by dint of having the same family name as someone who achieved things on their own merits.

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

The alternative is a sort of chaperoned Seanad-esque electoral system where 'people who know better' install leaders as opposed to making them directly accountible to the people via popular election.

This is a false dichotomy, although what you are describing is similar to a party list system which is used by the overwhelming majority of countries that use proportional representation, the intention of which is to make parties which decide policies accountable, rather than individual representatives who may be forced to choose between the national good versus the good of their home constituency.

There are many alternatives, only two of which have been mentioned in this thread.

I have to say, at the end of the day I do have a great respect for Enda Kenny and his achievements as a person, and to a lesser extent his achievements within the FG party, but too much has gone wrong for the glaring problems within the Irish political system to be glossed over this time.

[Red_Marauder]

Originally Posted by Amhran Nua

So why do we need proportional representation, which among other things institutes a minimum voting threshold which restricts full democratic representation?

I didn't say we need PR, I don't give a damn about PR. It can be scrapped if people want it scrapped. The big benefit to the state and the national interest is that it would decimate some of the small, loony parties.

What I said is that I'm oposed to you crazy notion about non resident TDs running constituencies, and making decisions for constituents that they don't have to go back and live beside.

We've had absentee rulers in this country before; it doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Amhran Nua

And if Willy O'Dea or Enda Kenny are such great politicians, they won't need any unfair advantages bestowed on them by dint of having the same family name as someone who achieved things on their own merits.

But nobody is saying they do. The son or the daughter or the great great grandnephew of a TD is just as entitled to run for office as the son or the daughter or the great great grandnephew of a road sweeper. That is equality of opportunity.

My Grandfather had the same profession as I do. Did he give me my place at University? No. I got there myself, but he probably inspired me. It's the same for parents who work in industry, teaching, farming, entertainment, whatever. You cannot escape the naked fact that TDs cannot install themselves, only the demiocratic vote can install a TD. The people are free to say yes or no to a party's candidate.

Look, as for your other ideas, you can talk about the list system or the STV until the cows come home, fine. It's not a practical reality, it's unlikely to become a reality within this generation or the next. The reality is democracy as it stands by means of PR/ STV.

[Tricity Bendix]

Originally Posted by Vivisection

Why shouldn't the ideal for internal party organization be meritocratic, rather than gerontocratic careerism?

Sorry to pick out just this small bit from your post, but I would like to put forward the proposition that 'hanging in there' and 'paying your dues' are a means that people use to signal to higher ups in a party that they do merit consideration. If someone manages to hold an elected position for some amount of time it indicates that their beliefs and opinions and personality are viewed favourably by the electorate.

It would be difficult to run a party based on a meritocratic basis, as what merits a good politician is subjective. And a successful politician might be preferred to a good one. So firstly the leadership would have to decide on what basis they want to promote politicians, and then they would have to think about how they could measure such qualities as they deem desirable.

When looking at what makes a good politician, you have to see it from the party leaderships' point of view. First and foremost is electability. Someone like George Lee was obviously very electable, but how many people like him could come in and have that sort of impact? For everyone else the best way to signal that you have electability is to win elections. Which by neccessity starts out small. Rising up a constituency or youth organisation, then on to a town/county/city council and then on to the Dáil. The PDs were famous for bringing in outsiders, but in the end the big names failed to be electable and the party was left with only its most experienced vote-getter and a cute hoor from Galway.

Things other than electability are important of course, otherwise the Taoiseach would be the individual to garner most votes in an election. Media savy, a grasp for details, and command of a brief are all good traits, if harder to measure.

[wicklowwonder]

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

The fact is that Fine Gael has got it quite right on injecting new blood and has a bigger youth following than any other party. This thread needs a serious reality check.

Sorry to go slighty off point just wondering do you ave figures to prove Fine Gael has the biggest youth following and if you have could you please post a link be interested in reading them.

Thanks

[Amhran Nua]

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

I didn't say we need PR, I don't give a damn about PR.

Theres quite a lot you don't give a damn about it seems.

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

It can be scrapped if people want it scrapped. The big benefit to the state and the national interest is that it would decimate some of the small, loony parties.

What I said is that I'm oposed to you crazy notion about non resident TDs running constituencies, and making decisions for constituents that they don't have to go back and live beside.

TDs make few enough decisions at the national level about their constituencies, except on the odd occasion; thats why parties have a whip, to make sure that everyone toes the line. Local decisions should be made at the local level.

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

My Grandfather had the same profession as I do. Did he give me my place at University? No. I got there myself, but he probably inspired me. It's the same for parents who work in industry, teaching, farming, entertainment, whatever. You cannot escape the naked fact that TDs cannot install themselves, only the demiocratic vote can install a TD. The people are free to say yes or no to a party's candidate.

You need to sit down at an impartial exam and prove yourself on your own merits in any other career than politics, and this is the vital difference. You don't get +10 points because you're a Cowen, or +15 points because your grandfather was shot in the shin by the black and tans, and you don't get +20 points due to having an established network of financial support and contacts from birth, which lends itself to you passing the exam by sitting on your arse doing nothing.

Originally Posted by Red_Marauder

Look, as for your other ideas, you can talk about the list system or the STV until the cows come home, fine. It's not a practical reality, it's unlikely to become a reality within this generation or the next. The reality is democracy as it stands by means of PR/ STV.

And that attitude is exactly why people are disillusioned with politics in Ireland. Sure it hasn't changed yet, why would it ever change. I'm hoping thats not the FG party line.

I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye on these matters so I'll leave it at that, good vigorous discussion and I certainly enjoyed it - I hope theres food for thought there on both sides.