Western Rail Corridor

[bk]

Originally Posted by Stupido

1) People like to travel by train. They prefer it to Buses. More comfortable

People prefer the train because buses use to be crap, the roads bad and very slow.

However the newest buses are really very nice and the new roads given a much more comfortable and quick ride.

So the gap is quickly shrinking, while buses become faster and are much cheaper. Not good for IR at all.

Remember we aren't saying that IR will lose 100% of their customers, but if they lose even 20% to improved bus and car then that would be very serious for IR.

Also IR hasn't helped themselves here as the new carriages are significantly bumpier and less comfortable then the old ones, genius.

Originally Posted by Stupido

5) you will be able to get from M50 to Oranmore/Dunkettle in 2 or 3 hours, but centre to centre will take longer

But that can actually be an advantage for car, most people don't live in a train station, so most people need to commute (bus, Luas, taxi, etc.) to and from a station, which ads to the cost and time of rail based travel.

Car is door to door and therefore often quicker and cheaper (of course there is a cost in petrol and tolls, but it is usually at least €20 cheaper then by train IME).

Originally Posted by Stupido

6)Ireland needs all 3 forms of transport - road, rail and bus.

I agree and that is why I'm making these points, to point out the dangers faced by IR, so they can do something about it. IR need to improve rail by:

1) Vastly improve travel time by renewing track and lifting speed restrictions, etc.
2) Making the carriages ride more comfortable (currently out to tender to be done)
3) Put free wifi in all carriages
4) Put power in all seats.

The last three are relatively low hanging fruit that allows IR play to the strengths of rail.

5) Make rail more affordable by bringing back the weekender pass.

Originally Posted by Stupido

Firstly, in all the arguements on road v rail, roads do not have to finance themselves. Rail projects do. Ever wonder why this is?

Actually many do via tolls and most of the MIU's have at least one and many have two tolls.

Originally Posted by Stupido

If you take the money spent on the Dublin Cork motorway, and used it on High Speed Rail, such as they are doing in Spain, France and Italy, We could have financed TVG type lines from Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Galway and Belfast.

The problem rail faces, for intercity transport, road tends to give you a greater return on your investment and better impact on the economy.

Roads are as much about making it cheap and easy to move goods around the country as people and this is very important for the economy.

Generally you can't mix both rail freight and high speed trains, it is usually one or the other and normally even if you build high speed rail, you still need a decent road network to carry goods and people to places not served by rail (see Germany for example).

For the most part, Ireland is simply too small to support high speed rail. Typically for high speed rail, it needs to connect two large cities over a long distance. Here rail only connects relatively small cities to one medium sized city over relatively short distances.

[corktina]

quote from bk

"Remember we aren't saying that IR will lose 100% of their customers, but if they lose even 20% to improved bus and car then that would be very serious for IR."

this is the important point....evry passenger lost has to be paid for by either the other passengers or through tax. every time the cost per passenger goes up, more passengers will be lost....

[Sponge Bob]

You are being very short sighted in telling the Ryanair generation that they cannot and will not suffer mild discomfort but only for 2 - 2.5 hours in to save quite a lot of cash .

Originally Posted by Stupido

I'm afraid I don't agree. You are forgetting a number of factors in writing the epitath of rail in Ireland

1) People like to travel by train. They prefer it to Buses. More comfortable

I am one of those people , I cannot justify from next year as it will cost twice as much and will be slower .

2) Time is not always to most important factor in deciding what mode of transport to take

Not always but high in the mix. The bus was guaranteed to be slower , Galway - Dublin in 2005 . Much slower on a friday evening . It is now level . It will be faster starting next year and thereafter .

3) Not everyone has a car, and many do not like driving for more than an hour

I know The 1 hour car argument is very weak TBH as it depends on the road and time of year . Anyway I said that the big problem is the Express Bus not the car

4) Cars cost money too. Petrol and tolls and parking in city centre etc

This argument is in full reverse now. The pricing of cars out of city centres is causing a lot of problems for retailers who pay rates that pay for Council employees in Cities. Expect parking charges to drop by years end if anything !

5) you will be able to get from M50 to Oranmore/Dunkettle in 2 or 3 hours, but centre to centre will take longer

There are Bus lanes for buses thereafter

[serfboard]

Originally Posted by Sponge Bob

You are being very short sighted in telling the Ryanair generation that they cannot and will not suffer mild discomfort but only for 2 - 2.5 hours in to save quite a lot of cash .

I am one of those people , I cannot justify from next year as it will cost twice as much and will be slower .

Not always but high in the mix. The bus was guaranteed to be slower , Galway - Dublin in 2005 . Much slower on a friday evening . It is now level . It will be faster starting next year and thereafter .

I know The 1 hour car argument is very weak TBH as it depends on the road and time of year . Anyway I said that the big problem is the Express Bus not the car

This argument is in full reverse now. The pricing of cars out of city centres is causing a lot of problems for retailers who pay rates that pay for Council employees in Cities. Expect parking charges to drop by years end if anything !

There are Bus lanes for buses thereafter

I agree with almost all the points raised by SpongeBob.

I recently travelled with GoBus.ie from Galway->Dublin. €10 non-stop took 2:45 (Vs €15 off-peak on the train taking 2:50). Got on the motorway at Athlone all the way, and on the bus lanes from Leixlip onwards. Very comfortable, with seats that reclined way back and with huge amounts of legroom (unlike some of those Bus Eireann ones - where the distances between the seats can be tiny and your knees are rammed up against the seat in front of you). Though there were only 10 people on the bus, this service has just started. Everyone coming off the bus complimented the driver on such a comfortable journey. Oh yeah, the bus also has a toilet and free wi-fi (though I didn't use either).

When Ballinasloe->Athlone and Leixlip->M50 are finished later this year, more time will be knocked off (possibly 2:30 - beating the pants off the train). The real blow will be when Galway->Ballinasloe opens next year - then it will beat the train in terms of time and be cheaper (with no penalty for using the service at peak times either).

Back on-topic, imagine what such a service would do to the WRC when Gort->Crusheen is finished? With Bus Lanes in Galway and Limerick, and the Limerick tunnel finished, you could have Galway->Limerick in 1:15 for €5. As against WRC taking how long and costing how much? The WRC (Galway->Limerick) is dead before it has even started. For the money that they've spent on it, Gort->Tuam could be well advanced by now.






Disclaimer: Neither I, nor anyone I know, works directly, or indirectly, for GoBus.

[Chris_533976]

Citylink go Limerick to Galway in 1h30 as it stands. It rivals the CAR at the moment due to bus lanes in Limerick and Galway. It'll beat the pants off the WRC.

However, the bus will be slightly slower than the car when the rest of the M18 is done.

[Sponge Bob]

Originally Posted by serfboard

Disclaimer: Neither I, nor anyone I know, works directly, or indirectly, for GoBus.

I must say the same , I do not work in or with transport but with network technologies . I have no pecuniary interest in the industry and nor do family etc . I am genuinely on the outside looking down .

Galway City Boundary to the Athlone bypass will be 70km of Motorway by summer 2010 . It is an hour from Athlone - M50 already.

I reckon about 2.15-2.30 by EXPRESS bus and still 2.50 on most trains .....same as 1979 and then you have to get a Luas to and from the Centre of Dublin don't forget that extra 10 mins either making it 3 hours each way by train city centre to city centre

All I can say is I told you so ( here last year ) ...I did not expect them in early 2009 though but another poster Marrmurr in that thread made a similar comment about Cork-Dublin and that with big sections of Motorway incomplete such as the long Cashel-Cullahill one at the time .

I travelled from Cork-Dublin by bus last week. The bus went non-stop except for a 10 minute stopover at Urlingford. It took only 3 hours 25 minutes from the centre of Cork to the centre of Dublin (O'Connell Bridge). That compares with a train time of 2 hours 50 minutes from Cork Kent Station (10 minutes walk even without heavy luggage from Cork city centre) to Dublin Heuston (15 minutes by bus or Luas to near O'Connell St).

When the motorways are complete, and genuine non-stop services, using coaches with on-board toilets, are introduced, then Irish Rail could be in serious trouble. The bus journeys will take approximately the same time but will be significantly cheaper. I've used buses a lot and there's definitely a demand for several non-stop services per day between Dublin and most of the main towns/cities.

Gobus even has free wi-fi internet for the passengers but that will be common soon .

[Carawaystick]

Originally Posted by serfboard

I recently travelled with GoBus.ie from Galway->Dublin. €10 non-stop took 2:45 (Vs €15 off-peak on the train taking 2:50).

I presume GoBus actually brought you to Dublin City centre too for your tenner and didn't try charge you an extra euro at heuston?

[Jim Martin]

The myth of High Speed Rail (HSR):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...avel-europe-uk

[IIMII]

Is it true that the WRC is going to become part of NAMA?

[DWCommuter]

Originally Posted by IIMII

Is it true that the WRC is going to become part of NAMA?

YES.

In fact I heard the Government was thinking of throwing in the entire West of Ireland as it has failed to deliver on its 50 years of grants, subsidisations and pity from the east. The only thing it has contributed is a decent venue for a stag night/piss up or a diddly doodle aye holiday for some bored Americans/German back packers. But of course try justifying the cost of TG4 to "real" programme makers that can actually attract an audience and the pump action will come out. I have one waiting right now!

The west is alive???? Eh no. The west is asleep and expects others to dream its dreams.

[dermo88]

Let us not be under any illusions. Economic depressions, and I now use that word in an Irish context invariably lead to a hard nosed analysis of CIE and Iarnrod Eireann. This has been avoided for close on 20 years, the last reform being the partial implementation of the 1981 McKinsey report which recommended breaking up CIE.

The breakup of CIE was done half heartedly.

To look to the future, we need to look at two previous reports on Irish Railways. The first is the 1957 Beddy report, and the rail network today broadly matches what was recommended in that report, save for the survival of Limerick to Ennis, and soon, Ennis to Athenry, the Nenagh branch, and instead of Mullingar to Athlone being closed, Portarlington to Athlone was recommended for closure.

The next report is Pacemaker, from 1963. Again, comissioned by Dr CS (Todd) Andrews. By that stage, the Mayo road was losing money. The profitable routes were Dublin to Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway, Tralee and Waterford.

So, what is under threat today.

I do not see Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy surviving another 10 years. Limerick Junction to Waterford has a chance. Rosslare to Waterford is finished, make no doubt on that, it was never busy in terms of passenger traffic in the first place. The Ballina branch is touch and go in terms of its future, as is Gorey to Rosslare Harbour. In fact, I'd go as far as saying that the Rosslare line is not likely to survive if the cold light of financial analysis is made.

It is misguided to consider reopening regional routes until a clear effort is made to improve existing services.

The game from now will be about Commuter services. Some Intercity will survive, mainly the radial routes from Dublin. The Mayo and Sligo lines will only survive for political reasons, indeed that is the only reason they did survive, as I do recall the days when the track on the Sligo line in the early 1990's was in a terrifying condition.

The savings from the closure of minor routes however will be negligible. But Ireland, right now, faces an economic crisis of Argentine proportions. I would go as far as saying that the Government will have no choice in a few years but to privatise the whole lot. The likely scenario will be a huge 20% fare increase to try and bridge the revenue expenditure gap, which will lead to shorter, more frequent trains anyway. They might go faster, and I know for a fact that they are capable of slashing 20-30 minutes on several routes, with minimal expenditure.



And frankly speaking, I would have no objections whatsoever.

[bk]

Originally Posted by dermo88

The likely scenario will be a huge 20% fare increase to try and bridge the revenue expenditure gap, which will lead to shorter, more frequent trains anyway.

Which is where intercity rail heads into a death spiral. 20% more and it be comes that much less competitive versus car and coach on the MIU's, plus don't forget the danger of flying.

[serfboard]

Just to let ye know, Noel Dempsey was on Galway Bay FM this morning and he said the feasibility study for Athenry->Claremorris is on-going with an anticipated opening in 2011.

And you know, I believed every word he said.

[D'Peoples Voice]

Originally Posted by serfboard

Just to let ye know, Noel Dempsey was on Galway Bay FM this morning and he said the feasibility study for Athenry->Claremorris is on-going with an anticipated opening of the feasibility study in 2011.

there, fixed that for you!

[Judgement Day]

"The game from now will be about Commuter services. Some Intercity will survive, mainly the radial routes from Dublin. The Mayo and Sligo lines will only survive for political reasons, indeed that is the only reason they did survive, as I do recall the days when the track on the Sligo line in the early 1990's was in a terrifying condition."

Dermo88 - please tell me of any inter-city service that is not on a radial route from Dublin?

The only reason any of the rail network survives is for political reasons - what other reasons are there?

The 1st McKinsey report highlighted that the heaviest losses occur on the busiest lines so it follows that Dublin/Cork is the heaviest loss maker and should be closed!

It is not the railway that should be shut down but CIE and the woeful Dept.of Transport.