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Improving my 3000m time
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02-12-2008 5:25pm#1I'm just about to resume cross-country training after a long injury. Seen as the track season isn't too far away and I'm coming back from a break I reckon this is a good time to ask for a little bit of advice.
I'm a 26 year old male and I am considering focussing on reducing my 3000m time this summer. My current PB is 9:19.1. Cross-country is my best and favourite event - I can compete with sub 9 minute 3k guys in cross-country races. My 1500m PB is 4:21.1, my 5000m PB is 16:17, and my 10k PB is 33:59 on the road (34:03 Track).
So if any of you guys here who have gone faster than 9:19 for 3k would like to offer me any tips or advice on how I could improve my time I would really appreciate it. If you need any more info about me or my training, ask away.
Thanks!0
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Wouldn't be able to add any value on running advice but one aspect you could look at his strength (as in a gym as opposed being able to do hills!) even with weights or without weights? Its something often overlooked by most middle-distance athletes and it can really make a difference and doesn't have to be a big time consumer. Do you currently do strength work?0
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Wouldn't be able to add any value on running advice but one aspect you could look at his strength (as in a gym as opposed being able to do hills!) even with weights or without weights? Its something often overlooked by most middle-distance athletes and it can really make a difference and doesn't have to be a big time consumer. Do you currently do strength work?
I normally do some push-ups, sit-ups and back extensions after my evening runs. One day per week I would do circuit training - 3 sets of 10 exercises, 30 seconds on 30 seconds off. Most of the exercises aren't that tough. None of them involve free weights or machines, they're just things like lunges, squats etc. I do a small amount of core stability work once per week also.0 -
Hi cfitz,
First of all I had a look at your PB's and compared them below per 400m which can tell us where your strengths are and also your weaknesses:
4.21 (69.6 per 400m)
9.19 (74.5)
16.17 (78.1)
34.03 (81.7)
Looking at them your endurance is better than your basic speed. Im guesing you cant bang out a very fast 800m.
Your route forward is to keep developing your aerobic system while working on 1500m-5km pace in small doses. If you can improve your 1500m time your 3000m time will come down.
I suggest the following:
- Running 6 days a week with one rest day
- Never do more than 2 workous in a 7 day block
- 1 Long Run weekly starting at 70 mins and working towards 1 hr 40 mins on hills
- 1 weekly workout of CV reps (5km pace per km plus 10 secs) these work on both Vo2 max also also improving Lactate Threshold. Aim to do 6000m-8000m worth of reps. e.g. 6-8*1000m with 90 secs jog recovery and afterwards do 4*200m @ 1500m pace with 90 secs recovery
- Focus Dec-Mar on 1 hill session and 1 track session at 5km-10km pace every other week.
- The rest is easy running 50-60 mins with strides added twice weekly at roughly 1500m pace
Come Apr-Jul you can start adding workouts at 1500m-3000m pace.
Hope that helps a bit, remember the key is consistant training and staying injury/illness free. Theres no big secrets. Do this until the summer and you will improve.
Tergat0 -
What Tergat says seems to make sense. My first thought on reading this was 'improve your 1500m time'. It seems much 'slower' than your other performances, so I concur that speed is probably your limiting factor or speed endurance. I think you should get it down to 4.15 handily enough.
Come March I would do something like 2 sessions a week, so 4 a fortnight: 2 at 3k race pace (for race specific training), 1 at under race pace ie 800/1500 pace (for speed) and 1 at over race pace 5k/10k (to keep the speed endurance/lactate threshold ticking over).
I would gradually try to reduce the rest period of the 3kpace session (e.g. 8-12 400s), leave the rest period of the 800/1500 session nice and long so you can focus on speed.
Disclaimer - I have not run 9.19 so ignore as you like!0 -
Hi cfitz,
First of all I had a look at your PB's and compared them below per 400m which can tell us where your strengths are and also your weaknesses:
4.21 (69.6 per 400m)
9.19 (74.5)
16.17 (78.1)
34.03 (81.7)
Looking at them your endurance is better than your basic speed. Im guesing you cant bang out a very fast 800m.
Indeed, my 800m PB is currently a scary 2:14.Your route forward is to keep developing your aerobic system while working on 1500m-5km pace in small doses. If you can improve your 1500m time your 3000m time will come down.
I suggest the following:
For all of 2008, I was training towards 10k XC. Even still my training was quite similar to what you have suggested below. Your program looks to be tailored suitably towards the shorter distance.- Running 6 days a week with one rest day This is what I have been doing except for this year I would also do 2 or 3 morning jogs of 25 minutes
- Never do more than 2 workous in a 7 day block Check
- 1 Long Run weekly starting at 70 mins and working towards 1 hr 40 mins on hills Currently do all my long runs on flat courses. 70 to 1:40 is precisely my range though.
- 1 weekly workout of CV reps (5km pace per km plus 10 secs) these work on both Vo2 max also also improving Lactate Threshold. Aim to do 6000m-8000m worth of reps. e.g. 6-8*1000m with 90 secs jog recovery and afterwards do 4*200m @ 1500m pace with 90 secs recovery This is a bit different to what I had been doing, and it looks interesting.
- Focus Dec-Mar on 1 hill session and 1 track session at 5km-10km pace every other week. In the past I would have done maybe 4 weeks of hill sessions followed by 4 weeks of long intervals, rather than interchanging them.
- The rest is easy running 50-60 mins with strides added twice weekly at roughly 1500m pace I had been considering adding in strides after my runs, it seems to be popular among the top runners in my club anyway.
Come Apr-Jul you can start adding workouts at 1500m-3000m pace.
Hope that helps a bit, remember the key is consistant training and staying injury/illness free. Theres no big secrets. Do this until the summer and you will improve.
Tergat
Thanks very much for the advice. If you think of anything else, please post!0 -
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cfitz,
Add in 6*100m strides twice weekly after easy runs. Keep relaxed focusing on nice form.
The CV reps are vital to any runner from 800m to marathon. Try these out they are excellent for stamina and work both vo2 max and lactate threshold. For you about 6-8km worth of reps is about right so you can go like this:
-6-8*1000m with 90 secs jog rec (Done at current 5k pace plus 10 secs per km)
- 5-6*1200m with 90 secs jog rec
- 4-5*1600m with 90 secs jog rec
Always do 4*200m at current 1500m pace after the CV reps. If you do this weekly you will see a dramtic improvement. I coach several guys who have ran under 8.40 for 3000m and 1 guy who has ran 8.18.
Adding in 2-3 easy morning runs on grass is fine, helps loosen up the body for the pm workout. Dont do any reps at 800-3000m pace until April. Focus on your endurance this is what gets you through the race and helps you hold the goal pace when you hit 1200m in the race. Speed will only get you so far. A handy way to keep in touch with 3000m speed is on an easy day instead of strides do 40-50 mins easy and finish straight on the track and go into 100m, 200m, 300m, 200m, 100m at 3k pace with 100m very slow jog in between. This simulates race pace with the focus on relaxed form and it doesent take anything out of you.
Make sure your long runs are done on hills, will improve leg strength which will in turn help with basic speed. Remember the 3000m according to the most up to date research is roughly 85% Aerobic so speed endurance and strength endurance are the key. The fast interval work at 1500m-3000m pace is just the icing on the cake.
Think of it like this: every time you are working on your endurance you are putting money in the bank. You are adding more and more as the season goes on. This is where consistency comes in. Then when the track season comes around you are going to make a big withdrawal.
Also very important if you are willing to do things right is:
- Good diet
- Plenty sleep
- Massage weekly
- 70% of your training on soft surfaces
- Belief in you ability
- the ability to race better than you train
Tergat0 -
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All of Tergat's advice is very very sound. If you stick by that you wont go far wrong. What I would recommend is to get in and do your sessions with a group of 9 minute ish runners. There are a few such groups in Dublin - Raheny, Clonliffe, DSD and Rathfarnham all have good groups of runners of varying abilities that would bring you on no end. You would probably be better off doing less reps/distance than sub 9 guys and gradually build up.
With regards to weights Tingle, I think they are important but if there is a trade off between a weights session and a 10 mile run (as is the case with many amateur runners due to time constraints) I would take the 10 mile every time.
Can you give us some background on your current training schedule cfitz so we can critique on that rather than you starting to try something completely new0 -
Racing Flat,
The purpose is to keep in touch with some 800m-1500m speed during the winter but only over 200m nothing longer. If you keep to this and keep 90 secs jog rec there will be little lactate built up.
I have my 800m guys do 6-8*1000m depending on their endurance followed by 3-4*150-200m
There is also the added benefit of getting the legs to turn over quicker when a little fatigued after the CV reps.
Tergat0 -
This is what I'd suggest:
Aerobic runs: start out easy but work up the pace to hit around 3:55 average for last 3k or so. Start out with 35-40 mins and increase the time for a few weeks. When the time gets to 55-60mins go back to 40 but at a faster pace, eg, getting up to 3:40-45 at the end. Don’t get caught up in the times though. Certain factors change from day to day, they’re just guidelines.
Recovery Runs: really really easy. The aim is to get the blood flowing and aid recovery not wear you out. Don't worry if fat girls run past you, it's a recovery session.
Long Runs: 70- 90 mins at a moderate pace depending on how you’re feeling on the day.
Circuits: Make them running specific – bounds, one legged squats, squat jumps, uphill sprints, flat sprints, hopping,
Core work: 10-15 mins 3 times a week. Plank, leg extensions (seated with legs in the air), leg extensions (lying on your back, starting with knees above hips), bridging, leg raises while lying on side, back extensions
Speed: strides or hills after runs. Very close to max intensity, full recovery.
Sessions:
Anaerobic threshold runs – can be done in reps format. 20minns, or 4x10mins, 2x15mins. You could also try two 20min AnT runs in the one day if you had the time.
Race pace reps – this should be a fairly easy session to start with. 10x200m with 200m jog recovery. Progress by shortening the recovery distance, increasing the reps or running the recovery faster.
Lactate tolerance – not important early in the season. Gets you ready to race. Don’t introduce it too late in the season or you could find yourself dead on your feet in the races.
Vo2 max pace (slightly slower than race) – 5-8x1k, 10x600m, 3-4x2k etc. Keep the sessions varied so you get good at running at that intensity, rather than at running that session. In my opinion, if you run Ks with a minute recovery each week you improve but the biggest improvement is in your ability to run Ks off a minute recovery. Verying it keeps your body guessing.
Everything except the race pace reps can be done on flat or hills in my opinion.
Structure:
Mon: Aerobic run 40-60 mins, progressing to a good pace. Strides/Hill sprints. Core work
Tue: Vo2 max session
Wed: am: recovery run pm: aerobic run like Monday. Strides. Core.
Thurs: am: Aerobic run pm: Circuits. Squats (progress to squat jumps), Lunges (progress to with weights, then to split lunges where you jump from one to the other), Press-up etc. Alternate each exercise with a sprint, stride or hill sprint.
Fri: rest/recovery run
Sat: am: AnT run. Pm: recovery run. Core
Sun: Long Run 70-90
Most of what ha been said seems to be good advice.
Tingle, what type of weights/strength work would you advise for a middle distance runner?
tergat, do you use any strength/core work in your training?0 -
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With regard to weights etc I would much prefer a guy to run on hills to increase leg strength. This in turn will help increase basic leg speed.
Core Strength work and circuits are also very good at the right time. I am not a big fan of plyometrics as there is a big injury threat if not done correct and also can be hard to fit them in with mileage etc.
Tergat0 -
Thanks for all the replies lads, they're brilliant. I'll have to read over the stuff again to digest it all. I'll have more question then I expect. Thanks again!0
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Can you give us some background on your current training schedule cfitz so we can critique on that rather than you starting to try something completely new
This is what an average week this summer would have been. I have only been aqua-jogging for the past few months because of my injury.
Every 4th week was a low mileage week. My longest run was 25k in 1:42:30. A normal week would have been something like this (barely over 100k):
Monday - AM: 25min jog (~5k) PM: 60min (~14k)
Tuesday - 4 x 1600m w/5min recovery within 60min very easy. (~5:23 1600m)
Wednesday - 60min (~14k). Gentle core exercises.
Thursday - AM: 25min jog (~5k) PM: 60min (~14k)
Friday - REST
Saturday - 60min (~14k). Circuit training: 3 x 10 (30sec on, 30sec off - not very high intensity).
Sunday - 90min (~22k)
Every day apart from Friday and Saturday I would do 20 press-ups, 150 sit-ups, and 60 back extensions.0 -
Looks ok but a few things I would note straight off.....you need to incorporate another session/workout into your week, most likely on the Saturday. As Tergat has pointed out, hills are invaluable for strength and speed so maybe you could do something like 12*300/400 hills on a decent incline.
The recovery on the Tuesday session is far too long, cut it down to at most 2.30 and maybe decrease the intensity a little.
100k a week is fine but if you feel your body is up to more (thats a big IF you have to ask yourself) I would be looking to push that up to 120k come February/March.
Strides once a week, moving up to twice a week are also important but make sure they are not too fast, around 80% with good form the key0 -
cfitz,
I think you need to re jig your week a bit. When up to full fitness I would advise something like this:
Mon- 50-60 mins easy with 6*100m strides afterwards
Tue- am: 25-30 mins easy pm: CV Reps 6-7*1000m & 4*200m
Wed- 50 mins easy
Thur- Rest
Fri- am- 25-30 mins pm- Tempo Run folowed by 4-6*100m hills
Sat- 50 mins easy
Sun- Long Run on hills 80-100 mins
If you are in 16.30 5km shape today here would be the training paces:
5km pace per mile- 5.18
vo2 max- 5.03
CV- 5.32
Tempo- 6.05
Easy- 7.10
Recovery- 7.37
Tergat0 -
Racing Flat wrote: »Great advice above, Tergat. Can I ask, what is the purpose/benefit of the 200s after the long reps? Thanks.
The two hundreds are for leg turnover which is to make your legs not forget that they can run at a fast pace and make it ecomomic to run at faster paces without expending excess energy0 -
Looks ok but a few things I would note straight off.....you need to incorporate another session/workout into your week, most likely on the Saturday.
Just before I got injured I had added in the second weekly session, I had purposefully left it out during the base phase. Do you think there should be two sessions in the week even in the early phases of training?0 -
Just before I got injured I had added in the second weekly session, I had purposefully left it out during the base phase. Do you think there should be two sessions in the week even in the early phases of training?
i would say rather than a second interval session tempo would be more productive in your base phase this would still be building on your strength which is the aim of the base phase0 -
I normally do some push-ups, sit-ups and back extensions after my evening runs. One day per week I would do circuit training - 3 sets of 10 exercises, 30 seconds on 30 seconds off. Most of the exercises aren't that tough. None of them involve free weights or machines, they're just things like lunges, squats etc. I do a small amount of core stability work once per week also.
Thats seems ok. I would try and increase your core/circuits to 3 days a week to start getting benefits. The bodyweight leg circuit you describe seems good and you can progress by doing single leg squats, leg raises on the ground (front, side, inside leg), supermans on the ground, hip lifts on the ground and all very slow and controlled (even do as part of a dynamic warmup??). Keep the circuit and time spent on them small at maybe 15-20 mins as then its not onerous and likely to get dropped if training is heavy. 3 x 20mins a week is an hour, not much when you think about it. Also, on your post run push-ups, sit-ups etc, throw in planks, both on the side and frontal (single, double legged) with long holds. All this is helping your overall body conditioning which is a gateway to doing further weights (as in free) and also great for preventing injuries and shoring up muscles imbalances.
Generally on strength training for middle distance I would say the knowledge and acceptance to do it is very poor by coaches. I would preface this by saying I don't coach middle distance but from what I have observed there seems to be a fear to do strength or weights as it will slow you down or make you heavy (does Jeremy Wariner look heavy?). A season of building up overall body conditioning with stuff like above and continually progressing it will mean that after that time a middle distance athlete would be strong enough to do free weights and start getting real benefits. The stronger your muscles are means the more power you can exert on each stride - if power is force by time. Also, the stronger your muscles are means you will have to expend less energy to get the required output which in turn means you will be more efficient and will dip into the more fatiguing fast-twitch muscles later than usual.
Someone mentioned plyometrics and they are a very misunderstood term I'd say. There is no point doing plyos unless you are strong (as in gym strong). Working in a gym (on body or free weights) will make you strong and then stuff like plyos will help you channel that strength, no poing doing them if there is no strength to channel. Also, guidelines I'd use before doing plyos would be first that on a repetitive bound an athlete can stop and stick at any time on the bound and also the standard that they can squat 1.5 times their bodyweight.
I used to hate weights and strength work (due to fear and not understanding them) but once I got over myself I have seen the benefits and apart from getting stronger, injury prevention is probably the main benefit. Don't be afraid to ask other people or coaches I'd advise. I would be no expert on weights or strength but my own coach is good on them as is my wife and they constantly advise. I also always ask other coaches who are expert in the area but generally the key and message is keep it simple. Get all over body strong, then move onto free weights like squat and lunge and then move onto plyos or bounds (that can take a year). The same applies for a sprinter as for a middle distance, Seb Coe is probably the best example of a middle distance athlete with a penchant for strengthwork and he was handy enough:) Sorry, bit of a long one but this has turned out being a super thread. Also, strength all year round and in synch with your running training and always taking into account the load you are undertaking on the track or road.
No point having a big engine if the chassis is sh*t and weak and keeps breaking under the stress the engine is putting it under.0 -
I'm going to work through the responses one at a time, otherwise I won't be able to take it all in. Also, my questions aren't just directed at the person I quote, so feel free to chip in. Thanks again for all the help.Make sure your long runs are done on hills, will improve leg strength which will in turn help with basic speed. Remember the 3000m according to the most up to date research is roughly 85% Aerobic so speed endurance and strength endurance are the key. The fast interval work at 1500m-3000m pace is just the icing on the cake.
Often when I run on hills my body seems to take a long time to recover. When I do hill reps I'm fine, so I think it's the downhills that hurt me. Bearing this in mind, would I be better to do one of the shorter runs on hills for a while first?Also very important if you are willing to do things right is:
- Good diet I stay away from junk food and don't eat that much processed food. I eat a lot of fruit.
- Plenty sleep Probably a bit short here, I'd say usually about 7 hours.
- Massage weekly This would be more like monthly for me. Do you think weekly would make my training easier?
- 70% of your training on soft surfaces Almost all my training is on a nice grass surface (but it's a short lap (800m), so more turns than I would like)
- Belief in you ability Well I definitely believe I can go a lot faster than 9:19
- the ability to race better than you train Yes
Tergat0 -
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All of Tergat's advice is very very sound. If you stick by that you wont go far wrong. What I would recommend is to get in and do your sessions with a group of 9 minute ish runners. There are a few such groups in Dublin - Raheny, Clonliffe, DSD and Rathfarnham all have good groups of runners of varying abilities that would bring you on no end. You would probably be better off doing less reps/distance than sub 9 guys and gradually build up.
I am not in Dublin and I train with a small group (3 other guys) and sometimes that means training on my own. It's a great group and they're all faster than me on the track (8:15, 8:43, 8:57). I sometimes think it would be great to have a big group to train with but I don't think it's really an option for me at the moment.0 -
The CV reps are vital to any runner from 800m to marathon.
For you about 6-8km worth of reps is about right so you can go like this:
-6-8*1000m with 90 secs jog rec (Done at current 5k pace plus 10 secs per km)
- 5-6*1200m with 90 secs jog rec
- 4-5*1600m with 90 secs jog rec
Hi Tergat,
Trying not to rob cfitz's thread here but in relation to the above mentioned CV reps for longer distance runners would a similar session suit or should the overall distance covered in the session be increased? (For a 10K to marathon runner).
Thanks.0 -
Yea ecoli your right, I think a tempo run could be used for a couple of months of the base phase instead of a 2nd interval session. I would just make sure it is on a decent surface (hard grass suface/tarmac). Doing it on a concrete, banked road would most definitely not be conducive to injury prevention.
One thing I would comment to you tergat is that is there a need to do 200's after a session of 1k's...especially if you are doing strides on 2 other days? Also, I just feel in my own opinion that you might hold back a bit too much on the k's to leave something for the 200's? The last thing I would want after a hard 8k worth of running on a cold night is to recover and do some 200's. Just my own opinion.
Also, while you quote exact training paces based on his current fitness, the body is not an exact science so some days the pace of each specific run will be faster, others slower.
I am just wondering why no one recommends more miles as a way to improve anymore? Why does everyone these days seem to recommend weights, plyos, core instead of just running a few extra miles a week. If you have the time and energy for these its all well and good but at the end of the day (I hate that phrase!) the best training for running IS running.0 -
I am not in Dublin and I train with a small group (3 other guys) and sometimes that means training on my own. It's a great group and they're all faster than me on the track (8:15, 8:43, 8:57). I sometimes think it would be great to have a big group to train with but I don't think it's really an option for me at the moment.
Without trying to sound smart, surely you can look at what these guys are doing and see what works for them. That doesnt mean copy their training but they are a great asset to you in terms of seeing the type of hard work that goes into a performance like 8.15 for 3k0 -
I am just wondering why no one recommends more miles as a way to improve anymore? Why does everyone these days seem to recommend weights, plyos, core instead of just running a few extra miles a week. If you have the time and energy for these its all well and good but at the end of the day (I hate that phrase!) the best training for running IS running.
I'd say that most of the people who have responded to this thread would take it as understood that doing weights, plyos etc is done on top of an optimal mileage for that person - ie they are doing as much as they should be doing0 -
Without trying to sound smart, surely you can look at what these guys are doing and see what works for them. That doesnt mean copy their training but they are a great asset to you in terms of seeing the type of hard work that goes into a performance like 8.15 for 3k
I do that. And our coach does be at some of our faster sessions so he can see what's going on too. I didn't post here because I'm completely stuck - I'm just trying to get some outside opinions, in case I'm missing something that's staring me in the face!0 -
Racing Flat wrote: »I'd say that most of the people who have responded to this thread would take it as understood that doing weights, plyos etc is done on top of an optimal mileage for that person - ie they are doing as much as they should be doing
Ah but why would you assume he is doing optimum mileage? He never originally mentioned mileage. I guarantee you 80% of runners are doing less mileage than they should. Another 10% are probably doing too much and the last 10% just about right.
There is no magic formula but I would never assume straight off the mileage someone is doing is perfect for them as a runner.0 -
I am just wondering why no one recommends more miles as a way to improve anymore? Why does everyone these days seem to recommend weights, plyos, core instead of just running a few extra miles a week. If you have the time and energy for these its all well and good but at the end of the day (I hate that phrase!) the best training for running IS running.
Ignoring supplementary work is asking for trouble no matter what distance in my opinion, might be a cliche but I'll repeat it again, no point having a great engine if the chasis is weak, you will breakdown and when that happens you won't be doing any running let alone a few extra miles a week.
Do you advocate any use of off track/road training?0 -
One thing I would comment to you tergat is that is there a need to do 200's after a session of 1k's...especially if you are doing strides on 2 other days? Also, I just feel in my own opinion that you might hold back a bit too much on the k's to leave something for the 200's? The last thing I would want after a hard 8k worth of running on a cold night is to recover and do some 200's. Just my own opinion.
they dont have to be fast when i began using these after sessions i did them in 35 and worked it down to 30 these shouldn feel hard but rather a comfort pace and i noticed that it managed to take nearly ten seconds off my 5k time with just this small adjustment in my training0 -
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This is what I'd suggest:
Aerobic runs: start out easy but work up the pace to hit around 3:55 average for last 3k or so. Start out with 35-40 mins and increase the time for a few weeks. When the time gets to 55-60mins go back to 40 but at a faster pace, eg, getting up to 3:40-45 at the end. Don’t get caught up in the times though. Certain factors change from day to day, they’re just guidelines.
Recovery Runs: really really easy. The aim is to get the blood flowing and aid recovery not wear you out. Don't worry if fat girls run past you, it's a recovery session.
Other people here seem to have suggested just one type of 'everyday' run, and it is slower than your 'Aerobic' run and much faster than your 'Recovery' run. Do you think there is much extra to be gained by following your approach?Structure:
Mon: Aerobic run 40-60 mins, progressing to a good pace. Strides/Hill sprints. Core work
Tue: Vo2 max session
Wed: am: recovery run pm: aerobic run like Monday. Strides. Core.
Thurs: am: Aerobic run pm: Circuits. Squats (progress to squat jumps), Lunges (progress to with weights, then to split lunges where you jump from one to the other), Press-up etc. Alternate each exercise with a sprint, stride or hill sprint.
Fri: rest/recovery run
Sat: am: AnT run. Pm: recovery run. Core
Sun: Long Run 70-90
Most of what ha been said seems to be good advice.0
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