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Neil_Sedaka · 31-12-2007, 00:05

Just home after the Christmas holidays and the boiler has decided not to fire up.
As this is the last straw, with this piece of sh1t Ferroli, (that has been troublesome and leaky since we moved in two years ago) I've decided to replace it altogether.

The current boiler is a sealed system, wall mounted gas boiler with attached expansion vessel, that heats the rads and the water (when it feels like it)

I've heard Baxi or Potterton are the mutts nuts, so can anyone answer the following please?

What system should I be looking for? I'd like to get something with a good energy rating.

Roughly, how much should I expect to pay for a replacement boiler, pump, expansion vessel and timer switch?

How will I keep my family from freezing until next week sometime, as this is in all probability, the earliest anyone will be able to do the job for me?

Any advice, thoughts, comments, experience etc. gratefully accepted.

Thanks.

theplumber · 31-12-2007, 01:48

Vokera non condensing system boiler is reasonable and has expansion vessel pump stat.

Why would you not get a plumber to ensure that there is sufficient water, pressure and a functioning expansion vessel before you decide to change boiler was it serviced properly,

Neil_Sedaka · 31-12-2007, 17:06

Thanks for the reply.

Had a dripping pressure valve, got it replaced but the joint is now leaking.
The self bleed valve coming from the pump is leaking water the whole time.
The expansion vessel membrane seems to be shot, when I connect a pump to it, water pisses out.

I have to pressurize the system to 1 bar almost every day at this stage.
After spending €800 last year on various gas valves, pcb, ignition wire thing etc. I won't spend another cent on it, out of pure disgust.

Neighbour has had lots of trouble with his too, seems like we both got a lemon.

Neil_Sedaka · 01-01-2008, 20:10

Can anyone give me a guide price to have this thing replaced?
Should a new expansion vessel, pump etc. be included in any quoted price?

Also, how much would I pay to have the system flushed and an inhibitor added?

Thanks.

youtheman · 06-01-2008, 14:04

If you want the highest energy rating then you should look for a condesning bolier with a SEDBUK A rating (don't ask me what sedbuk stands for).

The gas boiler will come with its own pressure vessel and pump. They normally come without external controls (timer and air thermostat). You should be able to re-use your existing air thermostat and timer, though you can get a 'plug in' timer for you new boiler.

Have a look at the thermal rating of the existing boler (normally contained on a data plate, in btus/hr or kw/hr, and make sure your new one is of a similar size, or bigger).

A gas bolier for a typical 4 bed hourse will set you back 1200-1500 euros (supply only). Not sure what a plumber will charge, but I would estimate an additional 800-1000 euros.

ircoha · 06-01-2008, 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by youtheman

If you want the highest energy rating then you should look for a condesning bolier with a SEDBUK A rating (don't ask me what sedbuk stands for).

The gas boiler will come with its own pressure vessel and pump. They normally come without external controls (timer and air thermostat). You should be able to re-use your existing air thermostat and timer, though you can get a 'plug in' timer for you new boiler.

Have a look at the thermal rating of the existing boler (normally contained on a data plate, in btus/hr or kw/hr, and make sure your new one is of a similar size, or bigger).

A gas bolier for a typical 4 bed hourse will set you back 1200-1500 euros (supply only). Not sure what a plumber will charge, but I would estimate an additional 800-1000 euros.

would suggest smaller rather than bigger as, AFAIK, condensing boilers need the return temp to be 45C or lower to work most efficiently. if the boiler is too big then you may not get the necessary temp drop.

whosedaddy? · 07-01-2008, 17:47

I was told by gas guy that services my backboiler that getting a new high efficiency condensing boiler without replacing the rads and pipes isn't worth doing - as the boiler would never run at its optimum - he says leave old backboiler as long as you can and replace with normal boiler if needed!

Is that BS or true? Like new boiler on old system - no efficiency gain / reduced cost... unless I upgrade full system? And before someone ask, not the guy doesn't do installs - just service!

Coincidence that I got leavelet the other day for installing new condensing boiler + rads/ pipe cleaning... for €2500.

Can any1 shed some light on that - depending on how old OP's system is, might be a factor.

youtheman · 07-01-2008, 18:59

I would suggest that it would be a brave man that would put in a smaller boiler, though I do take your point that a new condensing boiler is more efficient so in theory it could be smaller.

The data plate on my old and new boilers stated the thermal input AND output (the output divided by the input is the efficiency). So make sure the OUTPUT from the new boiler is at least equal to the old one (the input for the new boiler can be smaller)

If you want to be scientific you can download software to calculate the thermal output from you boiler.

See http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/.../boilersizing/

If you put in a bigger boiler then it doesn't mean that you necessarilty waste all the extra output. If you connect the boiler to a room thermostat then the bigger boiler will just reach the set point that bit quicker than a smaller unit (and switch itself off until the temp drops below the set point). Bit like a 3.0L engine compared to a 2.0L engine. If you drive them both at 55 mph then there won't be a huge difference in mpg, but the 3.0L has that bit of extra capacity when needed.

beldin · 08-01-2008, 09:26

Here is a list of the boilers and their ratings.
http://www.sedbuk.com/

In the UK I don't think you are allowed to put anything in except a condensing boiler.

# SEDBUK (Seasonal Efficiency of Domestic Boilers in the UK)

youtheman · 09-01-2008, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by whosedaddy?

I was told by gas guy that services my backboiler that getting a new high efficiency condensing boiler without replacing the rads and pipes isn't worth doing - as the boiler would never run at its optimum - he says leave old backboiler as long as you can and replace with normal boiler if needed!

Is that BS or true? Like new boiler on old system - no efficiency gain / reduced cost... unless I upgrade full system? And before someone ask, not the guy doesn't do installs - just service!

Coincidence that I got leavelet the other day for installing new condensing boiler + rads/ pipe cleaning... for €2500.

Can any1 shed some light on that - depending on how old OP's system is, might be a factor.

Most of the new boilers are designed to be closed, pressurised systems (as opposed to open header tank). The problem with an old piping system is that you cannot guarantee that the system can take the pressure. You can take a risk and do a pressure test on the piping, but if it fails then you're rightly screwed (you will never find the leak to repair). It's o.k. when you are installing in a new house as you can test before you lay the floors, and fix any faulty joint.

I fitted a new boiler to an old system, but the plumber just disabled the pressurisng part of the system (the pressure gauge reads zero all the time). I'm losing some of the benefits, mostly the ability to heat up quickly both downstrairs as well as upstarirs, but it's still way more efficient than the old system.

Rads are not a problem as they are visible and any leak is easily isolated and fixed. You also have the ability of installing a bigger rad. I went for the vertical units in two of the rooms, floor to ceiling, thay are a nice feature.

In summary, I cannot see why you cannot live with the existing piping as a minimum. My vote : Plumber is bullsh***ing you.

Neil_Sedaka · 09-01-2008, 23:35

Thanks all for the comments and advice. I've decided to replace with a Baxi and have the hot water cylinder replaced too while I'm at it as it's not insulated.

Will have a dual, programmable timer for water and rads, two way valve in the hot press, room stat in the living room and a few thermostatic rad valves fitted for good measure.

Not getting much change from €3500, but hey, it's all about creature comforts.

whosedaddy? · 14-01-2008, 23:12

thanks youtheman.

not an immediate job on my list. But when tackling it, i also want gas in the kitchen for a new cooker. one thing tho, as I have to move location of the backboiler (and i don't want it wallmounted in the living room), moving pipes could be expensive.. gas and water from and to the boiler...

i reckon the hotpress would be the natural place for the new boiler? the kitchen is a lot further.

And while I would love using a boiler for instant on hot water, (and removing the hot water tank) this might be all a bit too much change for my 50 year old house.

31-12-2007, 00:05	#1
Neil_Sedaka Registered User Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: North County Dublin Posts: 1,555 Adverts \| Friends	Advice needed on replacement boiler please Just home after the Christmas holidays and the boiler has decided not to fire up. As this is the last straw, with this piece of sh1t Ferroli, (that has been troublesome and leaky since we moved in two years ago) I've decided to replace it altogether. The current boiler is a sealed system, wall mounted gas boiler with attached expansion vessel, that heats the rads and the water (when it feels like it) I've heard Baxi or Potterton are the mutts nuts, so can anyone answer the following please? What system should I be looking for? I'd like to get something with a good energy rating. Roughly, how much should I expect to pay for a replacement boiler, pump, expansion vessel and timer switch? How will I keep my family from freezing until next week sometime, as this is in all probability, the earliest anyone will be able to do the job for me? Any advice, thoughts, comments, experience etc. gratefully accepted. Thanks.

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31-12-2007, 01:48	#2
theplumber Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8 Adverts \| Friends	Vokera non condensing system boiler is reasonable and has expansion vessel pump stat. Why would you not get a plumber to ensure that there is sufficient water, pressure and a functioning expansion vessel before you decide to change boiler was it serviced properly,

31-12-2007, 17:06	#3
Neil_Sedaka Registered User Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: North County Dublin Posts: 1,555 Adverts \| Friends	Thanks for the reply. Had a dripping pressure valve, got it replaced but the joint is now leaking. The self bleed valve coming from the pump is leaking water the whole time. The expansion vessel membrane seems to be shot, when I connect a pump to it, water pisses out. I have to pressurize the system to 1 bar almost every day at this stage. After spending €800 last year on various gas valves, pcb, ignition wire thing etc. I won't spend another cent on it, out of pure disgust. Neighbour has had lots of trouble with his too, seems like we both got a lemon.

01-01-2008, 20:10	#4
Neil_Sedaka Registered User Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: North County Dublin Posts: 1,555 Adverts \| Friends	Can anyone give me a guide price to have this thing replaced? Should a new expansion vessel, pump etc. be included in any quoted price? Also, how much would I pay to have the system flushed and an inhibitor added? Thanks.

06-01-2008, 14:04	#5
youtheman Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 664 Adverts \| Friends	If you want the highest energy rating then you should look for a condesning bolier with a SEDBUK A rating (don't ask me what sedbuk stands for). The gas boiler will come with its own pressure vessel and pump. They normally come without external controls (timer and air thermostat). You should be able to re-use your existing air thermostat and timer, though you can get a 'plug in' timer for you new boiler. Have a look at the thermal rating of the existing boler (normally contained on a data plate, in btus/hr or kw/hr, and make sure your new one is of a similar size, or bigger). A gas bolier for a typical 4 bed hourse will set you back 1200-1500 euros (supply only). Not sure what a plumber will charge, but I would estimate an additional 800-1000 euros.

07-01-2008, 17:47	#7
whosedaddy? Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: 15 Yemen Road, Yemen Posts: 672 Adverts \| Friends	I was told by gas guy that services my backboiler that getting a new high efficiency condensing boiler without replacing the rads and pipes isn't worth doing - as the boiler would never run at its optimum - he says leave old backboiler as long as you can and replace with normal boiler if needed! Is that BS or true? Like new boiler on old system - no efficiency gain / reduced cost... unless I upgrade full system? And before someone ask, not the guy doesn't do installs - just service! Coincidence that I got leavelet the other day for installing new condensing boiler + rads/ pipe cleaning... for €2500. Can any1 shed some light on that - depending on how old OP's system is, might be a factor.

07-01-2008, 18:59	#8
youtheman Registered User Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 664 Adverts \| Friends	I would suggest that it would be a brave man that would put in a smaller boiler, though I do take your point that a new condensing boiler is more efficient so in theory it could be smaller. The data plate on my old and new boilers stated the thermal input AND output (the output divided by the input is the efficiency). So make sure the OUTPUT from the new boiler is at least equal to the old one (the input for the new boiler can be smaller) If you want to be scientific you can download software to calculate the thermal output from you boiler. See http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/.../boilersizing/ If you put in a bigger boiler then it doesn't mean that you necessarilty waste all the extra output. If you connect the boiler to a room thermostat then the bigger boiler will just reach the set point that bit quicker than a smaller unit (and switch itself off until the temp drops below the set point). Bit like a 3.0L engine compared to a 2.0L engine. If you drive them both at 55 mph then there won't be a huge difference in mpg, but the 3.0L has that bit of extra capacity when needed.

08-01-2008, 09:26	#9
beldin Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 160 Adverts \| Friends	Here is a list of the boilers and their ratings. http://www.sedbuk.com/ In the UK I don't think you are allowed to put anything in except a condensing boiler. # SEDBUK (Seasonal Efficiency of Domestic Boilers in the UK)

09-01-2008, 23:35	#11
Neil_Sedaka Registered User Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: North County Dublin Posts: 1,555 Adverts \| Friends	Thanks all for the comments and advice. I've decided to replace with a Baxi and have the hot water cylinder replaced too while I'm at it as it's not insulated. Will have a dual, programmable timer for water and rads, two way valve in the hot press, room stat in the living room and a few thermostatic rad valves fitted for good measure. Not getting much change from €3500, but hey, it's all about creature comforts.

14-01-2008, 23:12	#12
whosedaddy? Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: 15 Yemen Road, Yemen Posts: 672 Adverts \| Friends	thanks youtheman. not an immediate job on my list. But when tackling it, i also want gas in the kitchen for a new cooker. one thing tho, as I have to move location of the backboiler (and i don't want it wallmounted in the living room), moving pipes could be expensive.. gas and water from and to the boiler... i reckon the hotpress would be the natural place for the new boiler? the kitchen is a lot further. And while I would love using a boiler for instant on hot water, (and removing the hot water tank) this might be all a bit too much change for my 50 year old house.