Is the dole too generous?

TheNog · 23-01-2009 10:33am

Taxipete29 wrote: »

This makes no sense as the only ones who suffer are the kids themsleves. Why punish children for the actions of their parents

Not trying to punish the kids at all, it is trying to make the parents more responsibile for their actions. If parents want to have 3 or more kids then those parents should be made finance those childrens future through either better paying jobs (scarce I know) rather than relying on the tax payers money.

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Why not review the other parts of the Social Welfare benefit system instead?
For instance, why does a double-earning couple in the 41% (+1% levy of course) tax bracket receive child benefit per child? Why should people already earning well qualify, without even a means test, for a benefit when they already have money to raise those children?

That is very true but the problem now is parents see and use childrens allowance as an income so during the boom years they got mortgages, loans etc with the expectation the childrens allowance will help with bills, food etc.

axer · 23-01-2009 10:36am

tallus wrote: »

Try paying a mortgage while on the dole. I was out of work and went on to a community employment scheme. I almost lost my house in the process.
I applied for a lot of jobs while on the dole and out of about 50 applications I got 3 returned answers.

In fairness you should have taken out insurance with your mortgage which would have paid your mortgage whilst unemployed. Besides irish people have a fixation with purchasing houses when there is nothing wrong with renting and then you would have gotten rent allowance.

A person can live on 100pw along with rent allowance. It is meant to be a temporary measure to tie you over whilst you search for a job it is not meant to replace your income.

hobochris · 23-01-2009 10:38am

johnnyc wrote: »

hobochris have you searched for a job recently? doubt you have

No, But despite the current climate their still are jobs out there, just not the most desired jobs. I know this becuase people I know have recently gotten such jobs.

My point above is more so that the dole should be at a level were someone will take the hand of the employer offering a job.Pride is a terrible thing. Also I agree that wasters should be cut off from the dole(no free rides here), it should be for honest people only, not wasters and dole scammers. You should get the dole for so long and after that if you still haven't bothered to find a job or enter training its food stamps.

professore · 23-01-2009 10:43am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Why not review the other parts of the Social Welfare benefit system instead?
For instance, why does a double-earning couple in the 41% (+1% levy of course) tax bracket receive child benefit per child? Why should people already earning well qualify, without even a means test, for a benefit when they already have money to raise those children?

Why should a single person, living at home with their parents, not pay extra taxes to a family of 5 with a large mortgage and huge shopping bill creating jobs for the economy every week ? The former only has 1 person to support whereas the latter supports 5 while they pay pretty much the same taxes. The childrens allowance and a pathetic stay at home carer allowance that amounts to a few hundred a year are the only differences.

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 10:50am

professore wrote: »

Politically unpopular - btw I reckon it would cost more to adminster the means test. And I have 3 kids. Also the hoo-ha about the pensioners getting medical cards up to 700 pw :eek:

Politically unpopular? I don't doubt that. Ironic though that people who earn decent salaries AND receive this welfare handout just for having childrren will cry foul on govt wastage in other areas.

Why should a healthy earning couple receive money for nothing, especially in this current economic climate?
That child allowance to earning couples over a certain level should have been scrapped long ago.

Then again, this is the country where people want everything for nothing.

Volthar · 23-01-2009 11:00am

hobochris wrote: »

No, But despite the current climate their still are jobs out there, just not the most desired jobs. I know this becuase people I know have recently gotten such jobs.

My point above is more so that the dole should be at a level were someone will take the hand of the employer offering a job.Pride is a terrible thing. Also I agree that wasters should be cut off from the dole(no free rides here), it should be for honest people only, not wasters and dole scammers. You should get the dole for so long and after that if you still haven't bothered to find a job or enter training its food stamps.

In some countries you have to apply for jobs and go for job interviews several times a week then show a proof (like signed schedule) before you can collect your dole. Often there are couple of interviews a day so job seeking turns into real job

SW office will also search for a job for you and you can not refuse to go for job interviews they schedule for you. They will also ask recruiters for some feedback about your interviews (just to make sure that you are really trying to get a job). If you fail to attend particular number of interviews or they can prove that you are doing your best to not get a job you will loose your dole. The only problem with this system is HUGE bureaucracy and as result it causes increased expenses and possibility of corruption. My second thought is that maybe FAS and SW can join their forces and introduce similar system.

TheNog · 23-01-2009 11:00am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Politically unpopular? I don't doubt that. Ironic though that people who earn decent salaries AND receive this welfare handout just for having childrren will cry foul on govt wastage in other areas.

Why should a healthy earning couple receive money for nothing, especially in this current economic climate?
That child allowance to earning couples over a certain level should have been scrapped long ago.

Then again, this is the country where people want everything for nothing.

+ 1

No truer words said

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 11:03am

professore wrote: »

Why should a single person, living at home with their parents, not pay extra taxes to a family of 5 with a large mortgage and huge shopping bill creating jobs for the economy every week ? The former only has 1 person to support whereas the latter supports 5 while they pay pretty much the same taxes. The childrens allowance and a pathetic stay at home carer allowance that amounts to a few hundred a year are the only differences.

Example:
Married professional Couple.
He earns €45,000 gross pa.
She earns €40,000 gross pa.

Two kids (5 and 7yrs old). One of them in private schooling.
4-Bed House.
Two cars (08 and 06 reg).
Two vacation trips pa. One abroad. One in Ireland.

You think they should receive a welfare payment every month?

axer · 23-01-2009 11:08am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

You think they should receive a welfare payment every month?

They would receive Jobseekers benefit since you say they are working now. Job seekers allowance (dole) is means tested.

I think you forget that they pay tax too.

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 11:15am

axer wrote: »

They would receive Jobseekers benefit since you say they are working now. Job seekers allowance (dole) is means tested.

I think you forget that they pay tax too.

I was referring to child allowance being paid to a couple who are already of a standard of wealth well above the comfort zone.
And you say they qualify for a 'job seeker allowance' too???

axer · 23-01-2009 11:19am

Serenity Now! wrote: »

I was referring to child allowance being paid to a couple who are already of a standard of wealth well above the comfort zone.
And you say they qualify for a 'job seeker allowance' too???

If they become unemployed they would be entitled to job seekers allowance since they would be claiming from their prsi contributions.

I get the impression that you think this comfortable couple are just keeping all their money to themselves. Do you forget that they pay a nice tax contribution too and the amount they get in child allowance wouldn't be near what they pay in tax? Overall they are paying a positive amount to this country.

I would be more inclined to reward non-wasters for having children than lazy f'uckers who threat their children as income.

ionix5891 · 23-01-2009 11:31am

Yep they should get just enough to survive on beans and toast and noodles and buckfast so they have an incentive to find a job

I survived on above during college and it gave me incentive to study harder and work harder at part time job

Serenity Now! · 23-01-2009 11:59am

axer wrote: »

If they become unemployed they would be entitled to job seekers allowance since they would be claiming from their prsi contributions.

I get the impression that you think this comfortable couple are just keeping all their money to themselves. Do you forget that they pay a nice tax contribution too and the amount they get in child allowance wouldn't be near what they pay in tax? Overall they are paying a positive amount to this country.

I would be more inclined to reward non-wasters for having children than lazy f'uckers who threat their children as income.

This is just brilliant lol
They earn plenty. They are comfortable. All this after paying their tax contribution to the country's infrastructure. They are fine. They are actually wealthy.

This is wastage of money by giving welfare payments to people who do not need it.
You are trying to justify a welfare payment (yes, thats what it is at the end of the day) for having children to people who CAN ALREADY AFFORD TO HAVE CHILDREN.
And why? Because they pay taxes ??? A tax isn't a christmas savings club ffs.

Classic...:rolleyes:

Terra · 23-01-2009 12:21pm

I think there should be a rolling scale to solve this problem

For example...

If someone is made redundant then by all means the should receive enough dole too tie them over while working towards getting a new job. Maybe give a good incentive like 3 months tax free pay if you make a good effort and get yourself a job....

Proper proof should be provided on this course.

However if your a long term person on the job with no real intention of going for any job then the dole for these should be reduced too 100 euro or less.

If they want more then that they they can apply too do community work, as long as they contribute too society in some way.

AlekSmart · 23-01-2009 12:57pm

As the Nog sez:

Not trying to punish the kids at all, it is trying to make the parents more responsibile for their actions

Its not about a quantitive amount of money at all,it should be about this notion of "Responsibility" something which the current DSFA shies away from at every opportunity....as a direct result of its Political masters in Dàil Eìreann.

Whether it be Moral,Financial,Social or Personal,responsibility remains very visibly absent from a rapidly expanding chunk of modern Irish society

mikehn · 23-01-2009 12:57pm

Just been made redundant last week, no redundancy as with present company about a year. worked all my life, paid my taxes, wife, two kids, mortgage.
NO the dole should not be cut, whats needed here is a bit of thinking outside the box. its going to be rough trying to get a job but I think that everybody on the dole should have the oppertunity to work if only to preserve their self esteem,there are plenty of groups that could use a pool of skilled workers to carry out local improvements, help the eldery etc.
One big problem in this country is that people seem to have no sense of outrage,
a previous post mentioned NI residents using Southern addresses to claim dole, it could only happen in Ireland, any other country in Europe the phone would be picked up they would be stopped, same thing with nixers,black economy, people seem to think its ok to pull a stroke but long term its damaging ours kids future prospects.
We could have a great country here with a bit of an attitude shift, Ok the lead from the top aint great but maby this recession will focus peoples minds a bit.I can only hope that the present Gov. will realise that a good government leads by example and gets off its back side.
If only we had someone in the Obama mould that would have the courage to make unpopular decisions and the vision to see what needs to be done.
OK rant over.

tallus · 23-01-2009 8:20pm

axer wrote: »

In fairness you should have taken out insurance with your mortgage which would have paid your mortgage whilst unemployed. Besides irish people have a fixation with purchasing houses when there is nothing wrong with renting and then you would have gotten rent allowance.

A person can live on 100pw along with rent allowance. It is meant to be a temporary measure to tie you over whilst you search for a job it is not meant to replace your income.

I had insurance taken out previously to cover the eventuality of me not being able to pay the mortgage, but after having a road traffic accident I had to remortgage to make certain changes to my house and the insurance to cover payment was no longer available to me.
Not everybody out of a job lives in rented accommodation.
After starting back full time work last March 08 I have only recently caught up with mortgage/gas/electricity arrears.
I chose to buy my house because I didn't want to be paying dead money to someone else.
I'm 100% glad that I did too.

tallus · 23-01-2009 8:21pm

mikehn wrote: »

Just been made redundant last week, no redundancy as with present company about a year. worked all my life, paid my taxes, wife, two kids, mortgage.
NO the dole should not be cut, whats needed here is a bit of thinking outside the box. its going to be rough trying to get a job but I think that everybody on the dole should have the oppertunity to work if only to preserve their self esteem,there are plenty of groups that could use a pool of skilled workers to carry out local improvements, help the eldery etc.
One big problem in this country is that people seem to have no sense of outrage,
a previous post mentioned NI residents using Southern addresses to claim dole, it could only happen in Ireland, any other country in Europe the phone would be picked up they would be stopped, same thing with nixers,black economy, people seem to think its ok to pull a stroke but long term its damaging ours kids future prospects.
We could have a great country here with a bit of an attitude shift, Ok the lead from the top aint great but maby this recession will focus peoples minds a bit.I can only hope that the present Gov. will realise that a good government leads by example and gets off its back side.
If only we had someone in the Obama mould that would have the courage to make unpopular decisions and the vision to see what needs to be done.
OK rant over.

Best of luck getting a new job Mike, been there myself.

23-01-2009 8:55pm

I've lived on dole, without rent allowance.

200 euro dole
-
80 rent
-
50 food
-
70 going out
=
0

i was living like a king after college on dole. how can anyone say that it's not too much?

if I'd had rent allowance, about 140 would have been spent on drink or drugs cause 50 on food and 80 on rent is all you need.

oh well , okay · 23-01-2009 11:05pm

Haven't been on the dole in 15 yrs but here's my weekly expenses ......

car ins ..... €10pw
car tax ..... €10pw
petrol ..... €20pw need the car , I live in the country .
food ......... €50pw I gotta eat
electricity .. €15pw need lights and gotta wash me clothes
gas ........... €10pw need heat , hot water
coal etc ..... €15pw need more heat in the sitting room
b'band ....... €5pw need the internet to find a new job
home ph... . €10pw need the house phone to ring around for work
mobile ....... .€10pw need to be contactable
bin tag ....... €5pw gotta put out the trash
footie ..........€10pw have to pay to use the pitch

There's €170 without really thinking about it .

I'm left with €34 to pay a mortgage , cover any medical / dentist bills , service / repair the car , upkeep the house / garden and buy clothes .

I'd be living the life of Riley on the dole I tell ya !!

Permabear · 24-01-2009 1:41pm

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turgon · 24-01-2009 2:25pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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I fully agree with donegalfellas sentiments. The dole should not be a one size fits all payment. It should be means tested based on what you really need. For example Im technically unemployed at the moment, so I could claim it if I wanted. But I live at home so I get free food, free phone, free everything. Basically all the dole money would be spent on cds, books, and beer if I were getting it.

But that is not what the dole is about, the dole is about allowing you to survive while looking for a job. Your expenses should be examined to see what you need. Like why would I want a job if I can get 200 euro free from the state. Thus, if the dole was on a needs basis, people would be encourages to get a proper job so they could live on a wants basis.

Think about it this way - unemployed college dropout sponging off parents (me) gets the same as unemployed single mother looking after a kid. How is that sensible?

oh well , okay · 24-01-2009 3:21pm

Do you believe that taxpayers should cover all your expenses if you become unemployed? That we should pay for you to have a mobile phone and a landline phone and broadband internet access? That we should even cover the costs of you playing football?

Btw, it's possible to live healthily on far less than €50 worth of food a week.

As for your mortgage—surely you've heard of mortgage protections schemes for exactly this eventuality?

1) I am a tax payer and have been for 17 yrs . I think the state should help me cover my expenses as I have contributed to the state all my life . These are not luxuries in this day and age , they are tools which I can use to find work plus the contracts I'm tied into don't expire because I'm unemployed .

2) €50 groceries - this covers food , cleaning products for the home and for me .I will be off the welfare in no time if I stink and am unshaven .

3) I didn't put mortgage expenses down on my list but FYI I hold life and ill health insurance on my policy and it costs me a pretty penny to do so . I decided against unemployment insurance as it was an extra €25 pm and would only cover me for 6 months . In fairness I know of no-one with this insurance on their policy.

You would have people who lose their jobs lose their phones , internet access , live on cheap food and give up their one social activity per week . These people are not criminals .

There seems to be a lot of nonsense on this thread about people being able to survive comfortably on €100 a week . I exclude you from this DF but if you're at home with Mammy and Daddy then I'm sure it's more than possible . I went through college on £61 pw no problem but when you've no safety net behind you things get a bit more serious .

It's all well and good to complain about people from NI coming here to claim the dole and to complain about scroungers on the dole but these are in the minority and these are results of a bad system , complain about the system fair enough I'll happily agree on that point .

our €200 per week dole now equals or even exceeds the average Northern Irish factory worker's wage of £180 a week. Meanwhile, the dole in the UK is only about £60 sterling a week, about one third of what an Irish dole recipient receives.

So to use your figures if the NI average Ind wage is £180 and the dole is one third of this at £60 then that's fine and dandy but if our avg ind wage is €627 ( June 2007 source CSO ) and our dole is less than a third at €204 then we're paying out too much dole !

Permabear · 24-01-2009 4:14pm

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dolliemix · 24-01-2009 5:37pm

I just wonder why I am working and paying taxes to indirectly pay for somebody elses luxuries when I cant even afford them myself!

Sorry guys - but where mortgages are concerned some of you might just have to consider renting like the rest of us!

Kintarō Hattori · 24-01-2009 5:45pm

My girlfriend was working for the last four years. When she was working with Ulster Bank she was taking home about €2000pm. Now that she's on jobseekers benefit she's taking home about €800pm and not claiming any other benefits. Between paying for rent, food, electricity, clothing (when needed) and any other bills that crop up and which I haven't thought of, it becomes very very tight trying to survive on €200 per week.

I can only surmize that those folk who say €200pw is too much have never been on the dole or are working in a relatively well paid job and have no experience of what they are talking about.

Mena · 24-01-2009 5:55pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I thought that was what PRSI was for and the reason we paid it.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Bit of a strawman argument here. He's paid his PRSI so what he does with the money is entirely up to him. It's not as if the state has suddenly taken out a broadband contract for him.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sure, but what about paying rent, what if you're married, and have kids?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They're not. See above.

Bottom line is 200pw would be great for some, for others it sends them straight into the gutter, and provides even more incentive to find a job. For the former, I don't know how we fix it, the long term unemployed... For the latter, it's a stop gap for them, a pitiful one, that they have actually paid for in the form of PRSI contributions.

oh well , okay · 24-01-2009 6:04pm

Would you be better off if you had been able to save the equivalent amount of money into an investment fund

No have you seen the state of investment funds recently .

and an unemployment insurance program?

I would consider that I have for the last 17 yrs .

If every unemployed person is entitled to have a mobile phone, landline phone, and broadband internet paid for by the state, where do we stop? Where exactly is the dividing line between necessity and luxury?

I'm not saying I'm entitled to them . I have them and they are on contracts which have to be paid . 85% of households have home phones and 87% of people have mobile phones - hardly a luxury .

Honestly, I could eat well, shave, bathe, and keep my home clean for a lot less than €200 a month.

Fair play to ya , I am in fact a married man with child and a weekly bill of around €120 , a quick check on the NCA website shows the average grocery bill to be €150 so I thought €50 to be reasonable for a single man . This figure was quoted earlier arguing for the reduction in dole and you didn't argue it then so I presumed it was acceptable .

I'm asking whether it's legitimate to ask the hardworking taxpayer to fund the costs of mobile phones, landline phones, broadband internet

See above . I'm not purchasing these items with welfare merely maintaining their contracts .The vast majority on the dole have been hard working tax payers themselves . It's social welfare , it's a safety net .

and social lives

I quoted €10 a week from €204 on 1 social activity and you would begrudge this ?

The average industrial wage in Northern Ireland is £418 a week, so the dole in the North would be 14 percent of that.

Fair point well made , consider me suitably chastised .

I still maintain that €204 is not an exhorbident amount. In 2 minutes I ran up a bill of €170 with no mortgage/rent payments included . You may consider some luxuries to be in there but the fact that you argue €10pw to be unfair to spend on a social life speaks volumes.

If we were to lower the dole to €100pw I could afford to feed myself and keep the lights on , very little else . I would lose my car , home phone , mobile phone . I am now much less likely to gain employment but fair enough you've an extra penny on every pound you earn .

Seems to me the debate is heading more towards an American welfare system as opposed to an Irish/European system . If people consider a home phone to be a luxury then fair enough head for the American system .

Jesus Wept · 24-01-2009 6:32pm

oh well , okay wrote: »

Haven't been on the dole in 15 yrs but here's my weekly expenses ......

car ins ..... €10pw
car tax ..... €10pw
petrol ..... €20pw need the car , I live in the country .
food ......... €50pw I gotta eat
electricity .. €15pw need lights and gotta wash me clothes
gas ........... €10pw need heat , hot water
coal etc ..... €15pw need more heat in the sitting room
b'band ....... €5pw need the internet to find a new job
home ph... . €10pw need the house phone to ring around for work
mobile ....... .€10pw need to be contactable
bin tag ....... €5pw gotta put out the trash
footie ..........€10pw have to pay to use the pitch

There's €170 without really thinking about it .

I'm left with €34 to pay a mortgage , cover any medical / dentist bills , service / repair the car , upkeep the house / garden and buy clothes .

I'd be living the life of Riley on the dole I tell ya !!

A car is a Luxury - You shouldn't expect to be able to run/afford one on the dole.
Food - you could reduce this by a bit.
You don't need a home phone if you have a mobile phone.
20e per month on vodafone will get you free 087 to 087 calls, buy a txt bundle in order to txt non 087 numbers, you can also use your broadband/vodafone website to send free txts.

Do you live with people or alone? House, Apartment?
You are spending 173e per month on ESB/Gas/Coal? For one person, that's exhorbitant.

oh well , okay · 24-01-2009 7:06pm

- A car is a Luxury - You shouldn't expect to be able to run/afford one on the dole.
- Food - you could reduce this by a bit.
- You don't need a home phone if you have a mobile phone.
- 20e per month on vodafone will get you free 087 to 087 calls, buy a txt bundle in order to txt non 087 numbers, you can also use your broadband/vodafone website to send free txts.
Do you live with people or alone? House, Apartment?
You are spending 173e per month on ESB/Gas/Coal? For one person, that's exhorbitant.

In fairness I'm a married man with a child living in a double income home. If I were a single man and if I were made redundant these would be the expenses facing me.

You say I don't need a car , fair enough . I live 3 miles outside the nearest town with no bus service available to me . How do I go to work if I get a job ? A bike will get me into town but our local industrial area is 11 miles away . Up a hill , downhill all the way home though . The car allows me to search for work in a 60 mile radius . No car and I can only apply for jobs I can reach by bus which narrows my chances considerably .

Like I've said phones are on contract so I'm stuck with them for the time being .

220 people have been let go in my work place over the last 2 years and a local factory is letting another 100 go in June . I'm a lucky one as neither I nor my wife have been affected but a lot of colleagues have either been let go or had their wives let go recently. The fact is these people need that 200 a week , they've all paid tax and have lost jobs through no fault of their own .

The attitude on here annoys me tbh , the majority on the dole have been hard working tax payers for years but recently find themselves in hard times but the attitude here seems to be that the system is being milked , you're only entitled to just get by or you're lazy . I'm sure this is true in some cases but why halve everyones payments to encourage these people off the dole , why not tweak the system so they're found out .

Is the dole too generous?

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