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N40 - Cork South Ring Bandon & Sarsfield Flyovers

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Dunkettle is a 20 year old design...if not more...and was adequate in the 1990's and was then upgraded in the last 5 years.

    They cannot do a really big upgrade until the NRR is finished as an alternative route around it for Intercity traffic and the big push should therefore be to get the M20/Cork NRR done to clear the decks for a big Dunkettle upgrade in the late 2020's or so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Dunkettle is a 20 year old design...if not more...and was adequate in the 1990's and was then upgraded in the last 5 years.

    They cannot do a really big upgrade until the NRR is finished as an alternative route around it for Intercity traffic and the big push should therefore be to get the M20/Cork NRR done to clear the decks for a big Dunkettle upgrade in the late 2020's or so.

    The Jack Lynch Tunnel and Roundabout should not be confused with the Dunkettle Roundabout.
    The latter has been in existence for as long as I can remember and was part of the 'old' N8 route.
    The former intersection was only opened eleven years ago and was in need of alteration within a few years.
    BTW a '20 year old design...if not more' is no excuse, it is just the wrong design, who in their right mind would put a traffic light controlled roundabout on the intersection of two of the most heavily trafficed routes in the country.
    As the saying goes 'if you fail to plan, you plan to fail'


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Forgot that :)

    Nevertheless the problems along the river east of Cork will best be solved after the NRR is finished, so live with them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    The roundabout was in existance prior to the traffic lights. The traffic lights were/are a stop gap measure until the Dunkettle Interchange upgrade is completed.

    Aside from the usual funding issues there are a number of third parties that are complicating issues. As mentioned the North Ring needs to be finalised for one. Another is Irish Rail. And, finally there is Michael O'Flynn and his Dunkettle House scheme which is an ABP at the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    niloc1951 wrote: »
    The Jack Lynch Tunnel and Roundabout should not be confused with the Dunkettle Roundabout.
    The latter has been in existence for as long as I can remember and was part of the 'old' N8 route.
    The former intersection was only opened eleven years ago and was in need of alteration within a few years.
    BTW a '20 year old design...if not more' is no excuse, it is just the wrong design, who in their right mind would put a traffic light controlled roundabout on the intersection of two of the most heavily trafficed routes in the country.
    As the saying goes 'if you fail to plan, you plan to fail'

    The Dunkettle Interchange (as oppossed to the Dunkettle Roundabout) has been there significantly longer than 11 years (its actually 18 years old)

    It was first constructed (without flyover) in 1992 for the opening of the Glanmire bypass. A few years later (in anticipation of the Jack Lynch Tunnel opening) they constructed the flyover going West - East. About 3 or 4 years ago they then signalised the interchange.

    Hence, in its 18 year existance it went from

    1. A roundabout with 3 entries/exists (1992)
    2. A roundabout with 3 entries/exists with a flyover (circa 1998)
    3. A roundabout with 4 entries/exists with a flyover (opening of Tunnel) (circa 1999)
    4. A signalised roundabout with 4 entries/exists with a flyover (2006)


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,919 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    God knows where the money is coming from as this isnt a PPP as far as I know, and since there was no money (at all) available for starting publicly funded schemes in 2010 and probably 2011 I'd be dubious about this until I see tender notices.
    You've been repeating this mantra about funding till you're blue in the face Chris, but I'm not seeing any evidence for it - where are you getting yours?
    serfboard wrote: »
    Agree with all this and will add one further - how could they upgrade the Kinsale Road roundabout and leave the Sarsfields and Bandon road roundabouts as they are?
    The reason is that the original plan was to do both consecutively, but here we are.
    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    They cannot do a really big upgrade until the NRR is finished as an alternative route around it for Intercity traffic and the big push should therefore be to get the M20/Cork NRR done to clear the decks for a big Dunkettle upgrade in the late 2010's or so.
    I corrected that for you.
    1. A roundabout with 3 entries/exists (1992)
    2. A roundabout with 3 entries/exists with a flyover (circa 1998)
    3. A roundabout with 4 entries/exists with a flyover (opening of Tunnel) (circa 1999)
    4. A signalised roundabout with 4 entries/exists with a flyover (2006)
    5. A little freeflower like this :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    spacetweek wrote: »
    You've been repeating this mantra about funding till you're blue in the face Chris, but I'm not seeing any evidence for it - where are you getting yours?

    Because the country is borrowing an absolute mountain of money every week just to keep going. Also, how ~98 road projects got postponed. How the MSAs got postponed. And how anything up to 10 road projects are finishing at the moment and NONE are starting. There has been only 1 new start in 2009 and 2010, that being Castleisland. The government simply havent got the money to fund capital projects at the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,030 ✭✭✭niloc1951


    The Dunkettle Interchange (as oppossed to the Dunkettle Roundabout) has been there significantly longer than 11 years (its actually 18 years old)

    It was first constructed (without flyover) in 1992 for the opening of the Glanmire bypass. A few years later (in anticipation of the Jack Lynch Tunnel opening) they constructed the flyover going West - East. About 3 or 4 years ago they then signalised the interchange.

    Hence, in its 18 year existance it went from

    1. A roundabout with 3 entries/exists (1992)
    2. A roundabout with 3 entries/exists with a flyover (circa 1998)
    3. A roundabout with 4 entries/exists with a flyover (opening of Tunnel) (circa 1999)
    4. A signalised roundabout with 4 entries/exists with a flyover (2006)
    So, back in 1992 those who designed the Glanmire by-pass and associated infrastructure had no idea that there might be furure plans to build the tunnel and the SRR and traffic volumes would increase as this country developed its economy :rolleyes:.
    The only thing the administrators of this country seem to be good at is the 'sure that'll do for now' mentality as exemplified by the fact that the JL roundabout had to be 'modified' 4 times and still needs further redesign work, or perhaps we have mysteriously spawned a class of people devoid of a vision of the future and how to plan for it who have all come to inhabit the offices responsible for planning this country's infrastructure.
    Not to worry though, our current infrastructure is now future-proofed by accident because economically we are likely to regress fifteen or twenty years before we get going again :mad:.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭The Word Is Bor


    If the Glanmire Bypass opened in 1992 then it would have been designed in the mid to late 1980's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    The Glanmire Bypass will be fine for the forseeable future. Our problem has never really been road capacity, but road interchanges, we just... can't get them right... ever. :(


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    The Glanmire Bypass will be fine for the forseeable future. Our problem has never really been road capacity, but road interchanges, we just... can't get them right... ever. :(

    Very true.

    On the point of grade seperation on the remaining rounabouts on the SRR, causing a traffic snarl up at the dunkettle interchange, I'd suggest that this wouldn't happen. Similar predictions were made for northbound traffic approaching Newlands Cross after the N7 was finally grade seperated from Naas onwards. The removal of lights from Johnstown and Kill had no noticeable effect on congestion at Newlands despite predictions of same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 430 ✭✭Steviemak


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    On the point of grade seperation on the remaining rounabouts on the SRR, causing a traffic snarl up at the dunkettle interchange, I'd suggest that this wouldn't happen. Similar predictions were made for northbound traffic approaching Newlands Cross after the N7 was finally grade seperated from Naas onwards. The removal of lights from Johnstown and Kill had no noticeable effect on congestion at Newlands despite predictions of same.

    I tend to agree. The Sarsfield rd roundabout is a fair distance from the Dunkettle interchange and with all the junctions in between that allows traffic on and off i also suspect there will be little impact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30 quitepossibly


    Steviemak wrote: »
    I tend to agree. The Sarsfield rd roundabout is a fair distance from the Dunkettle interchange and with all the junctions in between that allows traffic on and off i also suspect there will be little impact.

    So when traffic is backed up eastbound as far as Douglas, and with the SRR flyovers complete, the unhindered traffic travelling east will not add to the queue? You can't get to the exits between Kinsale road r/a and the tunnel because theres already a two lane 5 km tailback in front of you!

    Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this project isnt top priority. But in reality all its doing is moving the peak time eastbound traffic problem a few km up the road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    So when traffic is backed up eastbound as far as Douglas, and with the SRR flyovers complete, the unhindered traffic travelling east will not add to the queue? You can't get to the exits between Kinsale road r/a and the tunnel because theres already a two lane 5 km tailback in front of you!

    Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this project isnt top priority. But in reality all its doing is moving the peak time eastbound traffic problem a few km up the road.

    I've seen it back up past the flyover on the Kinsale Road Roundabout.

    IMO, its not unfeasible to think it may backup to the flyover of the Sarsfield Road roundabout whenever that's done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    So, back in 1992 those who designed the Glanmire by-pass and associated infrastructure had no idea that there might be furure plans to build the tunnel and the SRR and traffic volumes would increase as this country developed its economy

    In the 1980s and early 1990s, all of the economic and demographic predictions were for continued population decline and a very slow rate of economic growth, and thus continued low rates of car ownership. On that basis, it was a miracle that anything got built at all, given that CBAs were premised on very low traffic figures. The M50 is a case in point, it was built to such a low standard precisely because all of the supporting data indicated that it was only marginally viable.

    People are blaming the NRA for poor junction design. Given that the NRA, or even the Department of Transport, don't set the budget for infrastructure projects, it would be more useful to consider the role that cost cutting (and quasi arbitary budget setting) had at every stage of the process. Yes, it leads to greater costs in the long term, but the short term concern in this country has always been around balancing the budget while ensuring the maximum number of ribbon cuttings. This is not the NRA's fault.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34 toughbuttfair


    If the Glanmire Bypass opened in 1992 then it would have been designed in the mid to late 1980's.

    The bypass only began construction in 1985/86. It would have been designed in the early eighties.
    niloc1951 wrote: »
    So, back in 1992 those who designed the Glanmire by-pass and associated infrastructure had no idea that there might be furure plans to build the tunnel and the SRR and traffic volumes would increase as this country developed its economy :rolleyes:.

    It could have been much worse. Both the tunnel and Glanmire bypass were originally supposed to link up at the old dunkettle roundabout. The tunnel and SRR were also only going to be two lane roads. In fact the construction of the tunnel was delayed by several years as upgrading it, from two to four lanes, required a new EIS and much political lobbying; to secure the extra funding.

    I have no doubt that many planners at the time knew that predicted traffic levels would require a free flowing interchange, but I believe they would not have asked for it for fear of being ridiculed by politicians or senior civil servants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    I have no doubt that many planners at the time knew that predicted traffic levels would require a free flowing interchange, but I believe they would not have asked for it for fear of being ridiculed by politicians or senior civil servants.

    Or that they did suggest it, but were told to go away and come back with something cheaper. One of the Department of Finance's knee jerk reactions to any proposed project is to immediately brand it as 'gold plated'.

    There is a regional element to this too - Cork got a lot of road investment in the 1990s. Once the N25/East Cork Parkway and the Tunnel were built, it was highly unlikely that Cork would receive any more largesse for quite a while, as problems elsewhere were dealt with. In effect, the city has gotten relatively little since that time by means of road improvements, the 'Ballincollig By-Pass' and the KRR overbridge being the main ones.

    It will be very interesting to see if the funding is found for these junctions, if only for that reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,534 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    The bypass only began construction in 1985/86. It would have been designed in the early eighties.



    It could have been much worse. Both the tunnel and Glanmire bypass were originally supposed to link up at the old dunkettle roundabout. The tunnel and SRR were also only going to be two lane roads. In fact the construction of the tunnel was delayed by several years as upgrading it, from two to four lanes, required a new EIS and much political lobbying; to secure the extra funding.


    How could the Glanmire bypass possibley have linked into the Dunkettle Roundabout.

    It would have required putting a 2nd bridge acrross the river and possible excavation of million of tonnes of earth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34 toughbuttfair


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Or that they did suggest it, but were told to go away and come back with something cheaper. One of the Department of Finance's knee jerk reactions to any proposed project is to immediately brand it as 'gold plated'.

    This was what happened with the KRR. The council wanted to build a free flowing junction, but were told that an at grade roundabout would suffice as there was no way traffic levels would ever require otherwise.
    Aidan1 wrote: »
    There is a regional element to this too - Cork got a lot of road investment in the 1990s. Once the N25/East Cork Parkway and the Tunnel were built, it was highly unlikely that Cork would receive any more largesse for quite a while, as problems elsewhere were dealt with. In effect, the city has gotten relatively little since that time by means of road improvements, the 'Ballincollig By-Pass' and the KRR overbridge being the main ones.

    It will be very interesting to see if the funding is found for these junctions, if only for that reason.

    I reckon funding will be found shortly as there is an election due in 2012 and Fianna Fail are going to need something to open (other than a can of worms). This project is relatively cheap (80 to 100 million euro) compared to something like the M20, which could cost up to a billion.

    I would expect similar costed projects to also get bumped up the priority list including: N25 Carrigtwohill to Midleton, Blackpool/Kilbarry railway station, and possibly the Athenry to Tuam section of the WRC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34 toughbuttfair


    How could the Glanmire bypass possibley have linked into the Dunkettle Roundabout.

    It would have required putting a 2nd bridge acrross the river and possible excavation of million of tonnes of earth.

    That was the original favoured route. Many things are possible, but some cost more than others.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    I've seen it back up past the flyover on the Kinsale Road Roundabout.

    IMO, its not unfeasible to think it may backup to the flyover of the Sarsfield Road roundabout whenever that's done.

    No its not unfeasible to think that traffic will back up. But it is worth considering other examples of where traffic chaos was predicted and then didn't materialise. The N7 through Kildare is the only other example I can think of, where grade seperation didn't cause the expected tail backs at Newlands Cross.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    No its not unfeasible to think that traffic will back up. But it is worth considering other examples of where traffic chaos was predicted and then didn't materialise. The N7 through Kildare is the only other example I can think of, where grade seperation didn't cause the expected tail backs at Newlands Cross.

    You sir are not comparing like with like here. Newlands X was one signalised junction with 2 DCs intersecting but with parallel and many alternative routes in the area. The Lee tunnel has 1 Motorway and 3 DC's all converging on it carrying national, commuter and local city traffic across the only crossing of the Lee outside of the CC in the west of the city.

    To say that the Tunnel is not going to back up with traffic even more so then now is folly tbh, its clear once (if) the SRR flyovers are built its obvious it will send traffic quicker into the one remaining bottleneck which will equal longer tailbacks.

    Add to that the never ending expansion of Mahonpoint and its environs and 1500 houses at Dunkettle its clear as day the tunnel in its current set up is only going to see ever worsening traffic and needs upgrading ASAP.
    Aidan1 wrote: »

    It will be very interesting to see if the funding is found for these junctions, if only for that reason.

    Cork has to be put to the front of the queue if there is any money available for the SRR flyovers, tunnel upgrade & Midlelton DC upgrade (along with Galway outer bypass). Its crazy that despite the regions prominent role in bringing in and keeping FDI over the past 40 years that it has received so little in return over the past decade whilst every backwater got some pork.

    Gov was more then happy to provide money to infrastructure like the Shannon Airport DC and the like, but ignored plans to link the area with most of the countries heavy industry - Ringaskiddy - in the process. Madness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Its not specifically a tender, but a 'contract notice'. The NRA are trying, but there is still no definitive guarantee of funding for this.

    http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR147155
    The works consist of the upgrading of 3km of the N25 South Ring Road including the grade separation of both the Bandon Road and Sarsfield Road Roundabouts, the demolition of footbridges at both roundabouts, the construction of parallel link roads between the roundabouts, the construction of slip roads to and from the N25 South Ring Road to meet these roundabouts or the parallel roads, upgrading the approach roads to both roundabouts, the construction of new cyleways/footpaths and all ancillary works therewith.
    The main construction activities will be demolition, piling operations, ground improvement earthworks, drainage, earthworks, reinforced earth construction, concrete construction, bridge erection, road construction, road surfacing, service diversions, installation of road signs including gantry signs, installation of noise barriers, installation of traffic signals, provision of road markings, public lighting, landscaping, fencing and accomodation works.
    CPV: 4523310

    Edit: And for those who arent around, the N25 from Carrigtwohill to Midleton has had all its median gaps closed off and about half of it has been retarred. Retar the rest of it and it doesnt need doing and can wait a decade.


  • Registered Users Posts: 703 ✭✭✭cork_south


    Its not specifically a tender, but a 'contract notice'. The NRA are trying, but there is still no definitive guarantee of funding for this.

    http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=APR147155



    Edit: And for those who arent around, the N25 from Carrigtwohill to Midleton has had all its median gaps closed off and about half of it has been retarred. Retar the rest of it and it doesnt need doing and can wait a decade.

    Excellent stuff. Thanks for this info.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭fitzeyboy.


    Edit: And for those who arent around, the N25 from Carrigtwohill to Midleton has had all its median gaps closed off and about half of it has been retarred. Retar the rest of it and it doesnt need doing and can wait a decade.

    Not quite all the median gaps are closed off, there are still a few knocking about. The road surface on this section is still in a bad state as most of the retarring was ad-hoc patching with the only 1km fully resurfaced. not to mention the number of AT grade junctions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    To say that the Tunnel is not going to back up with traffic even more so then now is folly tbh, its clear once (if) the SRR flyovers are built its obvious it will send traffic quicker into the one remaining bottleneck which will equal longer tailbacks.
    Variable (automatically enforced) speedlimits can mitigate against this. They set the limit on the A100 (Berlin Stadt Autobahn, Berlin's equivalent to the SRR) to 60km/h (it normally sits at 80) when traffic is very heavy to keep it moving and avoid bunching. It works. It should have been implemented as part of the M50 upgrade too tbh, people don't relaise that by setting a lower limit, you can get home faster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 703 ✭✭✭cork_south


    murphaph wrote: »
    Variable (automatically enforced) speedlimits can mitigate against this. They set the limit on the A100 (Berlin Stadt Autobahn, Berlin's equivalent to the SRR) to 60km/h (it normally sits at 80) when traffic is very heavy to keep it moving and avoid bunching. It works. It should have been implemented as part of the M50 upgrade too tbh, people don't relaise that by setting a lower limit, you can get home faster.

    At least people travelling east to Douglas\Mahon\Blackrock from Ballincollig direction will no longer encounter delays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,811 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Yeah, to not build the SRR flyovers on the account of Dunkettle becoming a bigger bottleneck would be crazy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    No its not unfeasible to think that traffic will back up. But it is worth considering other examples of where traffic chaos was predicted and then didn't materialise. The N7 through Kildare is the only other example I can think of, where grade seperation didn't cause the expected tail backs at Newlands Cross.

    People were predicting huge tailbacks going through Ballinasloe (Westbound mainly) when the M6 from Athlone to East Ballinasloe. It was expected that traffic would arrive in Ballinasloe at faster pace and cause worse traffic going through the town. I drove Galway-Athlone-Galway everyday in the months leading up to the M6 opening and in the months immediately after the opening and traffic going through Ballinasloe was no worse after the opening.

    My theory for why it got no worse is that on the old N6 there was no decent overtaking opportunities between Athlone and Ballinasloe which meant traffic bunched up in huge convoys behind slow drivers. These convoys always moved at a snails pace through the town with people slowing or stopping to turn off or on to the N6. When the M6 opened, traffic was travelling a lot faster between Athlone and Ballinasloe but there was obviously excellent overtaking opportunities so traffic was arriving at Ballinasloe at a much more steady rate, rather than in bunches.

    Obviously there was grade seperation and a brand new motorway on the M6; in Cork it will just be grade seperation so not exactly the same..


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    KevR wrote: »
    People were predicting huge tailbacks going through Ballinasloe (Westbound mainly) when the M6 from Athlone to East Ballinasloe. It was expected that traffic would arrive in Ballinasloe at faster pace and cause worse traffic going through the town. I drove Galway-Athlone-Galway everyday in the months leading up to the M6 opening and in the months immediately after the opening and traffic going through Ballinasloe was no worse after the opening.

    My theory for why it got no worse is that on the old N6 there was no decent overtaking opportunities between Athlone and Ballinasloe which meant traffic bunched up in huge convoys behind slow drivers. These convoys always moved at a snails pace through the town with people slowing or stopping to turn off or on to the N6. When the M6 opened, traffic was travelling a lot faster between Athlone and Ballinasloe but there was obviously excellent overtaking opportunities so traffic was arriving at Ballinasloe at a much more steady rate, rather than in bunches.

    Obviously there was grade seperation and a brand new motorway on the M6; in Cork it will just be grade seperation so not exactly the same..

    Again let's be realistic here and compare like with like. Ballinasloe - Athlone is a rural motorway connecting a really small town (B'sloe) with two moderately sized urban area's (A'lone & Galway).

    The SRR is the main artery for an urban area of 300k people and beyond. It is congested now and will be even with the flyovers in place.

    So you have the main artery for the Cork urban area linking to 3 other Motorways/DCs via the tunnel. Without full grade seperation of the r'aboutl you will have 4 major routes all converging on one roundabout. Of course there will be major congestion.


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