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Greece: Parliament passes bill, Athens burns

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  • #62
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Crosswind wrote: »
    I don't think I ever disagreed with that. My disagreement is on the amount of tax evasion.

    I know, but my point is, the amount is so vast that doesn't actually matter.

    If you have a terminal condition, quantifying the scale of the illness ceases to be important.
    What matters is that the illness is terminal.

    Greece has the equivalent of economic terminal illness.
    Tax evasion is ubiquitous.
    Well, they're doomed because austerity measures don't bring growth.

    Austerity is not supposed to bring growth.
    And Greece has corrupted Austerity too!

    Let me paste an earlier post I had written
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77100154&postcount=49
    There seems to be a misconception about austerity in countries like Ireland and Greece, especially among the left wing in Ireland, that it's somehow supposed to jumpstart the economy of a reckless countries.

    The point of austerity is to try re-balance an economy which is completely unbalanced, to the extent that makes it possible for broken countries to return to the bondmarkets.

    The fact that the austerity has been 'so painful' in Ireland and Greece is unfortunately a measure of just had badly our countries were run.
    But how is austerity supposed to 'work' when we haven't even implemented austerity properly?

    We have corrupted the austerity process;
    in Greece, they still have that railway that consumes 5% of GDP
    in Ireland, we still have the CPA and our public spending is still multiples of what it sustainably can be.

    If you want to lose weight, but eat to excess by 1000 cals per day -> you're doing it wrong.
    If you want to implement austerity, but don't fix your own corrupt spending -> you're doing it wrong.

    This is where the political process falls flat on it's ass.
    In Greece, the government go to the people and say, the Troika are forcing us to do A,B,C.
    In Ireland, we are lucky that the government go to the people and say, we have to do A,B,C because Fianna Fail broke the economy.

    If you look at what is happening in Greece, I think direct democracy would be an improvement.
    The Greek government do not have the spine to take on their unions, so they strangle the private sector.
    They do not have the spine to tax the rich, who are evading tax to the tune of €40 billion, so they strangle the private sector.

    They're also doomed because while all the funds will be used to repay old loans, they're given with the promise that Greece will buy German and French weapon systems (Tanks/Subs from the Germans and Frigates from the French). So, even less money for growth, health, education etc.
    They would be in a better position though by using their own currency.

    I disagree.
    They would be in a better position if they
    A) Implemented austerity properly and stopped corrupting the process
    B) Started paying tax to fund the public services they wish to have, so that they do not have to borrow more money to fund them instead.
    Otherwise, reduce the public services to a level which can be supported by the level of tax they are willing to pay.


    Right now, Greece wants to have it's cake and eat it too.... the only way I know that a country can not pay tax but still sustain huge public expenditure is to be oil rich!
    Evidently, judging by Greece, reckless borrowing doesn't work.


  • #63
    Crosswind
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Crosswind


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I know, but my point is, the amount is so vast that doesn't actually matter.

    If you have a terminal condition, quantifying the scale of the illness ceases to be important.
    What matters is that the illness is terminal.

    Greece has the equivalent of economic terminal illness.
    Tax evasion is ubiquitous.



    Austerity is not supposed to bring growth.
    And Greece has corrupted Austerity too!

    Let me paste an earlier post I had written





    I disagree.
    They would be in a better position if they
    A) Implemented austerity properly and stopped corrupting the process
    B) Started paying tax to fund the public services they wish to have, so that they do not have to borrow more money to fund them instead.
    Otherwise, reduce the public services to a level which can be supported by the level of tax they are willing to pay.


    Right now, Greece wants to have it's cake and eat it too.... the only way I know that a country can not pay tax but still sustain huge public expenditure is to be oil rich!
    Evidently, judging by Greece, reckless borrowing doesn't work.

    I only wish if it was just paying your taxes. Greece has significant lower tax evasion compared to other countries, yet is in much worse situation. Tax evasion is only a minor factor.


  • #64
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Crosswind wrote: »
    I only wish if it was just paying your taxes. Greece has significant lower tax evasion compared to other countries

    Did you even read that report you have linked?

    Read page 6 please.
    21ce5qq.png
    Tax evasion is only a minor factor.

    Basic arithmetic doesn't support the argument.
    http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-02/italy-greece-among-worst-euro-countries-in-corruption-ranking.html

    Dec. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Italy and Greece scored the lowest among euro-area countries in a global corruption ranking as their inability to tackle graft and tax evasion exacerbated the debt crisis, watchdog group Transparency International said.

    Greece placed 80th.
    Ireland dropped five places to 19th, earning a score of 7.5 out of 10, a drop from 8 points in last year’s ranking, Transparency said.

    “Euro-zone countries suffering debt crises, partly because of public authorities’ failure to tackle the bribery and tax evasion that are key drivers of debt crisis, are among the lowest-scoring EU countries,” the group said in the report.



    In Greece, Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos in September announced plans to impose a special tax on all homeowners to meet budget targets for this year after admitting the country’s tax-collection system was failing.

    Open Wounds

    “There have been failures in the tax-collection system, tax evasion, delays, as well as the deepening recession,” Venizelos said. Greece’s measures had “opened wounds on the body of society,” which a “national struggle” against tax evasion would help close, he said on Oct. 18.




    But I would still be interested to hear what you consider the major factors.


  • #65
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crosswind wrote: »
    I only wish if it was just paying your taxes. Greece has significant lower tax evasion compared to other countries, yet is in much worse situation. Tax evasion is only a minor factor.

    I admit to being slightly dubious of that study, because a "shadow economy", like the real economy, is a complex thing, and there's a lot of devil in the detail. If tax evasion, for example, consisted primarily of low-paid agricultural workers and low-paid workers in retail and hospitality, then you're not actually seeing a lot of evaded tax, even on quite a large shadow economy, because it consists of large numbers of low-paid. If, on the other hand, it consisted primarily of highly-paid professionals such as dentists and doctors, then the amount of tax evasion could be very much higher. Anecdotally, the situation in Greece seems closer to the latter.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #66
    Crosswind
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Crosswind


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Did you even read that report you have linked?

    Read page 6 please.
    21ce5qq.png



    Basic arithmetic doesn't support the argument.






    But I would still be interested to hear what you consider the major factors.

    Before page 6, there is page 4 and after that, there is pages 9-12. I rest my case.
    Btw, the major problems are corruption, bureaucracy, unemployment and EU quota on agricultural production.


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  • #67
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Crosswind wrote: »
    I rest my case.
    It's generally not a bad idea to spend some time building a case before leaving it to rest.


  • #68
    Crosswind
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Crosswind


    djpbarry wrote: »
    It's generally not a bad idea to spend some time building a case before leaving it to rest.

    Is there something in that report that wasn't clear?


  • #69
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crosswind wrote: »
    Is there something in that report that wasn't clear?

    It wasn't at all clear that it supports your contention that Greece has significantly lower tax evasion than most countries. It looks instead as if it's at the high end of the tax evasion scale for the EU, and I think most of us would take it that that's the relevant context rather than, say, Africa.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #70
    pacquiao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 465 ✭✭pacquiao


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    It wasn't at all clear that it supports your contention that Greece has significantly lower tax evasion than most countries. It looks instead as if it's at the high end of the tax evasion scale for the EU, and I think most of us would take it that that's the relevant context rather than, say, Africa.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    I think the relevant context is why were they left into the single currency in the first place?


  • #71
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Crosswind wrote: »
    Is there something in that report that wasn't clear?

    Do you have any other reports?

    A report based on sources from Wikipedia as well as other websites is not exactly credible. A couple of books would be nice. I would have been laughed at if I forwarded any assignment in college with wikipedia and online sources.

    This is worth a watch, quite fun!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_NPzgXWS6A

    Go Greek for a week documentary by Channel 4. It takes three positions in England and examines what the counterpart in Greece would have been like pre-austerity.


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  • #72
    Crosswind
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Crosswind


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    Do you have any other reports?

    A report based on sources from Wikipedia as well as other websites is not exactly credible. A couple of books would be nice. I would have been laughed at if I forwarded any assignment in college with wikipedia and online sources.

    Do you any "credible" report to contradict the one i posted?
    I was called a liar when i said that tax evasion is not 40%, but a bit more than half, so i brought a report that supports what i'm saying. Still waiting for proof of the opposite.
    Btw, nice try to discredit the report, but if you actually had read it, you'd have noticed that Wiki was used only for population data. Other sources of the report were the World Health Organisation, US Treasury and CIA World Factbook. I guess the Spiegel and Channel 4 are way more credible :D


  • #73
    Crosswind
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Crosswind


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    It wasn't at all clear that it supports your contention that Greece has significantly lower tax evasion than most countries. It looks instead as if it's at the high end of the tax evasion scale for the EU, and I think most of us would take it that that's the relevant context rather than, say, Africa.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Actually i never wrote "most countries". What i wrote was "Greece has significant lower tax evasion compared to other countries, yet is in much worse situation" meaning that there are countries with higher tax evasion, but not having Greece's problems. e.g Russia and Turkey. Hope it's more clear now.


  • #74
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crosswind wrote: »
    Actually i never wrote "most countries". What i wrote was "Greece has significant lower tax evasion compared to other countries, yet is in much worse situation" meaning that there are countries with higher tax evasion, but not having Greece's problems. e.g Russia and Turkey. Hope it's more clear now.

    Sure - but, as I said, I think the fact that their tax evasion is comparable to Russia or Turkey wouldn't be generally seen as relevant in the context, given that Greece a member of the EU and euro, and is in receipt of a eurozone bailout - while Russia isn't any of those things.

    The problem here is more that Greece's euro membership allowed it to borrow at far cheaper rates than it could have done before, and that it papered over the gap between the levels of government spending its tax revenue could actually support and levels of government spending Greece felt were appropriate through borrowing, basically, against Germany's credibility.

    It's in that context that Greek levels of tax evasion are relevant - the level of tax evasion is part of the gap between Greece's real economic strength and its pretensions, and is also a measure of the extent to which the Greek government was (dishonestly?) borrowing against the market's belief that Germany would prop them up because they were part of the euro.

    The relevant context, then, for judging Greek levels of tax evasion, is the rest of the euro club. Because Greece had the hard option of sorting out its tax evasion in order to raise revenues closer to outgoings, or the soft option of borrowing against the credibility of the euro to paper over the gap - it chose the latter option.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #75
    Crosswind
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Crosswind


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Sure - but, as I said, I think the fact that their tax evasion is comparable to Russia or Turkey wouldn't be generally seen as relevant in the context, given that Greece a member of the EU and euro, and is in receipt of a eurozone bailout - while Russia isn't any of those things.

    The problem here is more that Greece's euro membership allowed it to borrow at far cheaper rates than it could have done before, and that it papered over the gap between the levels of government spending its tax revenue could actually support and levels of government spending Greece felt were appropriate through borrowing, basically, against Germany's credibility.

    It's in that context that Greek levels of tax evasion are relevant - the level of tax evasion is part of the gap between Greece's real economic strength and its pretensions, and is also a measure of the extent to which the Greek government was (dishonestly?) borrowing against the market's belief that Germany would prop them up because they were part of the euro.

    The relevant context, then, for judging Greek levels of tax evasion, is the rest of the euro club. Because Greece had the hard option of sorting out its tax evasion in order to raise revenues closer to outgoings, or the soft option of borrowing against the credibility of the euro to paper over the gap - it chose the latter option.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


    Agree, to a point. My objection is that the loans were used to repay older loans. Same thing with the supposed bailout. What I find even worse is that money granted for growth (EU programs) were not used (or used up to 20-30%) and therefore returned back to EU after a period of time due to bureaucracy and inadequate (understatement here) politicians. Greece is facing, for the past 30 years, a political bankruptcy most of all. Even tax evasion is a political and not economical problem as there is no will from the governments to tackle it.


  • #76
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Crosswind wrote: »
    Do you any "credible" report to contradict the one i posted?
    I was called a liar when i said that tax evasion is not 40%, but a bit more than half, so i brought a report that supports what i'm saying. Still waiting for proof of the opposite.
    Btw, nice try to discredit the report, but if you actually had read it, you'd have noticed that Wiki was used only for population data. Other sources of the report were the World Health Organisation, US Treasury and CIA World Factbook. I guess the Spiegel and Channel 4 are way more credible :D

    It is your argument, you need to back it up not me. I never called you a liar.

    The standard on politics is higher than other forums in boards, so that is why you will see a report that once cites web sources ripped apart and not taken serious.

    http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/26074/1/GreeSE_No_31.pdf
    is a simple example of a report on Greece and tax evasion which has proper citation and references. Your report only had weblinks, which is arrogant and lazy for any report, especially when figures are coming from wikipedia as they are open to such editing.

    I only make my point because we are seeing more and more lazy examples of media not checking their sources, the Independent and Sindo being prime examples in recent weeks.

    We gotta have standards!


  • #77
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Crosswind wrote: »
    Agree, to a point. My objection is that the loans were used to repay older loans. Same thing with the supposed bailout. What I find even worse is that money granted for growth (EU programs) were not used (or used up to 20-30%) and therefore returned back to EU after a period of time due to bureaucracy and inadequate (understatement here) politicians. Greece is facing, for the past 30 years, a political bankruptcy most of all. Even tax evasion is a political and not economical problem as there is no will from the governments to tackle it.

    Absolutely true - they could have chosen to seriously clean up their act in order to get into the euro (as we did). Instead they chose to fudge the figures. They could have chosen to clean up their act in order to make the fantasy and reality meet. Instead they chose to borrow on the strength of the euro to paper over the gap.

    And now, when they're being bailed out by other people - both public and private - they still don't seem to have the necessary political will to clean up their act to the extent that the countries lending money to them want in order to feel they're not foolishly risking their taxpayers' money.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #78
    Crosswind
    Registered Users Posts: 73 ✭✭Crosswind


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    It is your argument, you need to back it up not me. I never called you a liar.

    The standard on politics is higher than other forums in boards, so that is why you will see a report that once cites web sources ripped apart and not taken serious.

    http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/26074/1/GreeSE_No_31.pdf
    is a simple example of a report on Greece and tax evasion which has proper citation and references. Your report only had weblinks, which is arrogant and lazy for any report, especially when figures are coming from wikipedia as they are open to such editing.

    I only make my point because we are seeing more and more lazy examples of media not checking their sources, the Independent and Sindo being prime examples in recent weeks.

    We gotta have standards!

    I can't argue with your logic, after all the whole argument started when someone posted a link about Greece having a certain amount of tax evasion without anything to back it up. I'm tired of seeing personal opinions from so called journalists being taken as a gospel without the slightest effort from the reader to actually check if the data is valid.
    Concerning the link I posted, it is a briefing report with the latest data, not a paper. As long as it contains the sources used so that I can check them, is fine by me. On the other hand, you linked a paper that was being updated for several years (2008-2010 if I remember correctly), so yes, it is more professional looking :)


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