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Can FF acutally manage to recover and become a major force in Irish Politics?

24

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    So I imagined his oft-repeated catchphrase "I don't accept that" ?


    Its here. Maybe not the apology you were looking for but its something nonetheless.

    http://ec2-46-137-0-54.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/2011/news/9michel-martin-admits-to-cosy-consensus-in-economy60/
    Liam Byrne wrote: »


    He reinstated O'Dea which means he has no interest in changing FF for the better, and that's not even related to the fact that he was part of the most disastrous administration ever.

    If he represents FF "improvements" you can keep them.

    Er no. It doesn't mean he has "no interest in changing FF", it means he made a mistake in this particular instance. You seem unable or unwilling to accept that.

    Give me ONE SINGLE REASON why I should give this individual even the slightest benefit of the doubt ?

    You believe that he made a mistake. I believe that it's another example of FF's core ethos.

    Your opinion does not override mine, and given Martin's involvement in FF to create the crisis and his actions and half-bakes insincere "apologies" that "don't accept that" and his opinion that libellous slanderous individuals who commit perjury are suitable for his front bench, the facts are backing up my opinion, not yours.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Give me ONE SINGLE REASON why I should give this individual even the slightest benefit of the doubt ?

    There is little point anyone trying to provide you with any single reason in this thread considering the fact that when you have been provided with such examples in previous threads you just cast them down no matter what. :)

    I think most people here realize you hate FF and nothing anyone can say will change that so there is little point you pretending anyone here can change your viewpoint.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Its here. Maybe not the apology you were looking for but its something nonetheless.

    http://ec2-46-137-0-54.eu-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com/2011/news/9michel-martin-admits-to-cosy-consensus-in-economy60/
    To be honest an apology is not genuine when you instantly start passing blame onto others.
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Er no. It doesn't mean he has "no interest in changing FF", it means he made a mistake in this particular instance. You seem unable or unwilling to accept that.
    He didn't make a mistake. O'Dea was selected intentionally by the party on the basis of his previous vote winning performances.

    He was picked not because of his abilities as a politician (especially that previously he was forced to resign due to a lack of confidence in him due to his actions with regard to Nessan Quinlivan (FYI Dan Boyle referred to him as "compromised")). MM and FF decided to resurrect him as they figured he would manage to scrape some votes by those in Limerick City who don't listen to the news.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Anyways personally I feel FF will manage a recovery although it will most certainly have to span at least two General Elections. I can imagine that FF will not step into government for the next eight to ten years and by that time the party is likely to have changed significantly both in terms of its membership and its policy platform. There are few in FF who even want to be anywhere near government within the next four years - something which I think shows that the party recognises that a long road to recovery is ahead.

    If the Euro crisis is exacerbated over the next twelve months then there may be some softening of attitudes towards FF also with people realising that there is a global dimension to our current woes. All the same FF's economic policies were disastrous during the boom years and the party has a momentous task in regaining the trust of the electorate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    kbannon wrote: »
    To be honest an apology is not genuine when you instantly start passing blame onto others.

    I think from a politician that's as good as you could realistically hope for.
    kbannon wrote: »

    He didn't make a mistake. O'Dea was selected intentionally by the party on the basis of his previous vote winning performances.

    He was picked not because of his abilities as a politician (especially that previously he was forced to resign due to a lack of confidence in him due to his actions with regard to Nessan Quinlivan (FYI Dan Boyle referred to him as "compromised")). MM and FF decided to resurrect him as they figured he would manage to scrape some votes by those in Limerick City who don't listen to the news.

    By "mistake", I mean I think he was wrong to do it (select O'Dea on the front bench prior to the GE). I can see the reasons he did it for but I think it was still the wrong thing to do. I'm not sure what you thought I meant?


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    I think from a politician that's as good as you could realistically hope for.
    I don't want to settle on hoping for something. If I was satisfied with settling on something less than what I want, maybe then I would consider voting for FF. (actually I wouldn't!)
    gaffer91 wrote: »
    By "mistake", I mean I think he was wrong to do it (select O'Dea on the front bench prior to the GE). I can see the reasons he did it for but I think it was still the wrong thing to do. I'm not sure what you thought I meant?
    You said that he made a mistake in selecting O'Dea and that it doesn't indicate that he doesn't want to change FF. I showed that because O'Dea managed to get votes in Limerick, he was called back to help bolster FF in what everyone knew would be a bloodbath.
    O'Dea's selection was fully intentional by MM & FF and shows that they haven't changed one iota.


  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭Mikel91


    There is little point anyone trying to provide you with any single reason in this thread considering the fact that when you have been provided with such examples in previous threads you just cast them down no matter what. :)

    I think most people here realize you hate FF and nothing anyone can say will change that so there is little point you pretending anyone here can change your viewpoint.

    Sierra...You sir are a legend hah hah.
    O'Dea's selection was fully intentional by MM & FF and shows that they haven't changed one iota.
    Actually Peter Power,who is now head of UNICEF Ireland was FFs main backing for Limerick.The only reason Willie keeps getting his seat is as of localism voting and when ever he's challenged for his FF place within the Grassroot system he usually is meant to bring a large number of floating or rent a mob members.This was due to the voting styles of FF grass roots system which is set to be reformed and changed at the next Ard Fheis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Anyways personally I feel FF will manage a recovery although it will most certainly have to span at least two General Elections. I can imagine that FF will not step into government for the next eight to ten years and by that time the party is likely to have changed significantly both in terms of its membership and its policy platform. There are few in FF who even want to be anywhere near government within the next four years - something which I think shows that the party recognises that a long road to recovery is ahead.

    If the Euro crisis is exacerbated over the next twelve months then there may be some softening of attitudes towards FF also with people realising that there is a global dimension to our current woes. All the same FF's economic policies were disastrous during the boom years and the party has a momentous task in regaining the trust of the electorate.

    Sierra, what does FF actually stand for, aside from populaism and republican rhetoric? Give me one, solid, policy-based or ideological reason why it shouldn't just fold into FG? No FF'er I've ever talked to could give me a satisfactory answer to this. Is there any differences or even stated differences aside from personalities?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Give me ONE SINGLE REASON why I should give this individual even the slightest benefit of the doubt ?

    There is little point anyone trying to provide you with any single reason in this thread considering the fact that when you have been provided with such examples in previous threads you just cast them down no matter what. :)

    I think most people here realize you hate FF and nothing anyone can say will change that so there is little point you pretending anyone here can change your viewpoint.

    I have not been given any indication that FF are changing. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should take an objective look at the party that you choose to belong to.

    I hate FF because of what they represent and continue to represent. If they changed then I wouldn't hate them.

    But - as I have shown - they have no interest in changing or representing ordinary working people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭Mikel91


    Sierra, what does FF actually stand for, aside from populaism and republican rhetoric? Give me one, solid, policy-based or ideological reason why it shouldn't just fold into FG? No FF'er I've ever talked to could give me a satisfactory answer to this. Is there any differences or even stated differences aside from personalities?
    I have not been given any indication that FF are changing. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should take an objective look at the party that you choose to belong to.

    I hate FF because of what they represent and continue to represent. If they changed then I wouldn't hate them.

    But - as I have shown - they have no interest in changing or representing ordinary working people.

    Lads honestly ye have no idea do ye.I dont mean to insult but my god...You both claim to have political interests but form what I cna tell you know as much as the average joe does.Do a bit more research into the party other than boards/politics.ie threads.

    Liam especially you.My god we know you hate FF,We heard it through too the teeth.You constantly make accusations and ignore peoples posts fully.When ever a proper,decent discussion happens about the party,be the thread praising or criticing them..You hijack with several others and turn into one of those people that call Joe Duffy and scream down the phone making things into a non nonsensical rant.Please...just grow up /rant


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Mikel91 wrote: »
    I have not been given any indication that FF are changing. If you have a problem with that then maybe you should take an objective look at the party that you choose to belong to.

    I hate FF because of what they represent and continue to represent. If they changed then I wouldn't hate them.

    But - as I have shown - they have no interest in changing or representing ordinary working people.

    Liam especially you.My god we know you hate FF,We heard it through too the teeth.You constantly make accusations and ignore peoples posts fully.When ever a proper,decent discussion happens about the party,be the thread praising or criticing them..You hijack with several others and turn into one of those people that call Joe Duffy and scream down the phone making things into a non nonsensical rant.Please...just grow up /rant

    Never listen to Joe Duffy and - unlike those who do - I don't read tabloids and don't rant or scream. I think things through and examine all the facts.

    Are you an FF member ?

    Are you suggesting that we're not entitled to point out that FF refuses to change ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭Mikel91


    Liam Byrne wrote: »

    Are you an FF member ?

    Are you suggesting that we're not entitled to point out that FF refuses to change ?

    Why am I reminded by American McCarthyism.You do know that you dont have to be a member or FF to support or defend them against,well provocations that are far beyond the cause you imply.

    You can point it out,but it doesn't meant your right.

    Now Liam I'd rather we not take over this thread between us with a flame war and get back to the topic on hand.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mikel91 wrote: »
    You do know that you dont have to be a member or FF to support or defend them against,well provocations that are far beyond the cause you imply.
    very very few non FF members would nowadays be willing to stand up and defend them in all fairness. Sure, most who voted for them in the last two general elections won't even admit it!
    Mikel91 wrote: »
    Now Liam I'd rather we not take over this thread between us with a flame war and get back to the topic on hand.
    I agree.
    My view again. I loathe FF for what they have done to this country and pray to God that they never secure another seat on a bus never mind within the walls of Dáil Éireann.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Mikel91 wrote: »
    Lads honestly ye have no idea do ye.I dont mean to insult but my god...You both claim to have political interests but form what I cna tell you know as much as the average joe does.Do a bit more research into the party other than boards/politics.ie threads.

    Liam especially you.My god we know you hate FF,We heard it through too the teeth.You constantly make accusations and ignore peoples posts fully.When ever a proper,decent discussion happens about the party,be the thread praising or criticing them..You hijack with several others and turn into one of those people that call Joe Duffy and scream down the phone making things into a non nonsensical rant.Please...just grow up /rant

    In fairness, FF's "issues" page which is the closest thing they have to a policies page on their current website that I can see and is just a categorised list of the News section from what I can see.

    http://www.fiannafail.ie/issues/

    Then you have the "constituition of Fianna Fail" which is so vague, you can't tell what they'd actually do to achieve any of things they supposedly stand for.

    http://www.fiannafail.ie/content/pages/5097/

    So they seem to not want people to know what their real policies are from what I can see.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    thebman wrote: »
    In fairness, FF's "issues" page which is the closest thing they have to a policies page on their current website that I can see and is just a categorised list of the News section from what I can see.

    http://www.fiannafail.ie/issues/

    Then you have the "constituition of Fianna Fail" which is so vague, you can't tell what they'd actually do to achieve any of things they supposedly stand for.

    http://www.fiannafail.ie/content/pages/5097/

    So they seem to not want people to know what their real policies are from what I can see.

    We will revist the constitution and the policies after the Ard Fheis (occurring within a matter of weeks now). An entire new constitution is in the works alongside the formation of new policy. The deadline for motions for the Ard Fheis is in fact falling this very week so I suspect a Clár detailing the motions up for discussion will be made available shortly.

    Very little to discuss on the policy side until after the Ard Fheis, which I have been pointing out for the last six months. You are right in saying that, currently, FF has no real coherent and structured policy platform. That will not even begin to emerge until after the various Ardfheiseanna which are due to occur in 2012.

    Its not ideal - but I think its actually good that the collective membership of the party once again can direct party policy, rather than a narrow elite dictating to others what party policy shall be.

    Also the FF website is not really worth a tuppence at the moment. It has not been properly updated in months - I suspect as 2012 advances you will see an entire new website being implemented (which will actually list policy and aims which were passed at the Ard Fheis to be built upon).


  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭transylman


    We will revist the constitution and the policies after the Ard Fheis (occurring within a matter of weeks now). An entire new constitution is in the works alongside the formation of new policy. The deadline for motions for the Ard Fheis is in fact falling this very week so I suspect a Clár detailing the motions up for discussion will be made available shortly.

    Meh. I'm sure it will be the same old story. Heard it all before from the likes of Ahern and Haughey with their promises of change and a new start and an end to corruption etc etc.

    Fact of the matter is that for all their dominance of irish politics their record is truly shocking. Multiple economic recessions directly attributable to their policies, populist pandering to the church, seemingly engrained corruption. Sure, every so often they throw up someone capable like Reynolds or Lemass, but for the most part it was incompetents, crooks, or both.

    I just hope the electorate are wise enough to finally recognize this and those that had always voted FF distribute themselves among parties that actually stand for something.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,486 ✭✭✭miju


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    It's hard to be unbiased when you're talking about a group whos corruption and incompetence is internationally recognized
    Interestingly enough FG / Lab dont seem to be reckoned to be any less corrupt than FF going by historical standards and thats international ratings too ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    I suspect as 2012 advances you will see an entire new website being implemented (which will actually list policy and aims which were passed at the Ard Fheis to be built upon).

    And who'll be paying for that ? Another €40,000 wasted on €5,000 worth of a site ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 51,114 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    And who'll be paying for that ? Another €40,000 wasted on €5,000 worth of a site ?

    And it will ran by some crony.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    The way I see it, unless things drastically improve during the timespan of the current Dáil then Fianna Fáil will be back in government next time, probably in a coalition. They won't be as strong as they were in the '90s/early '00s but if things keep heading south FG and Labour are going to be wiped out at the next general election. In this scenario Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and probably some of the other smaller parties and independents would see an increased shared of the vote on the last election. Would an FF/SF coalition be possible? (Here's hoping not!)

    If, however, things start improving here before the next general election I would imagine FG/Labour or another FG coalition would be the next government. In which case I bet there'd still be a Fianna Fáil recovery of sorts by the following election as people get sick of Enda Kenny's mug.

    I do wonder if all this turmoil continues, will any real alternative new parties emerge?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Fianna Fáil will be back in government next time, probably in a coalition.
    With who? Nobody would touch them with someone else's twelve foot barge pole. Even if FG/Labour lose 30 seats and FF gain 30, FG/Labour would still have a majority.

    The only option would be a Tallaght Strategy situation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    We will revist the constitution and the policies after the Ard Fheis (occurring within a matter of weeks now). An entire new constitution is in the works alongside the formation of new policy. The deadline for motions for the Ard Fheis is in fact falling this very week so I suspect a Clár detailing the motions up for discussion will be made available shortly.

    Very little to discuss on the policy side until after the Ard Fheis, which I have been pointing out for the last six months. You are right in saying that, currently, FF has no real coherent and structured policy platform. That will not even begin to emerge until after the various Ardfheiseanna which are due to occur in 2012.

    Its not ideal - but I think its actually good that the collective membership of the party once again can direct party policy, rather than a narrow elite dictating to others what party policy shall be.

    Also the FF website is not really worth a tuppence at the moment. It has not been properly updated in months - I suspect as 2012 advances you will see an entire new website being implemented (which will actually list policy and aims which were passed at the Ard Fheis to be built upon).



    What are your views as to what policies the party should undertaking?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Very little to discuss on the policy side until after the Ard Fheis, which I have been pointing out for the last six months. You are right in saying that, currently, FF has no real coherent and structured policy platform. That will not even begin to emerge until after the various Ardfheiseanna which are due to occur in 2012.
    Out of interest, why are you a member of a party that has no real coherent and structured policy platform? What's the point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 323 ✭✭mistermouse


    I'd nearly hazzard the opinion that as it looks like there will be no real new alternative to FF, FG and Labour, that now is possibly the time for people who do have reasonable political opinions to look at organising a wholesale membership drive of Fianna Fail and create a decent party from within.

    Given that it will have to restructure and is at a low ebb, its possibly ripe for a takeover as such!

    The idea is probably not as unachievable or as unpalatable to many as joining the likes of Sinn Fein for example.

    The biggest problem with Fianna Fail particularly in the past 10-15 years was that it was run by a very small group that looked after themselves, but there is probably quite a large amount of supporters that would like to follow a new direction and get rid of whatever remains of the old guard, which to many observers would also include current TDs that were ministers


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,408 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I'd nearly hazzard the opinion that as it looks like there will be no real new alternative to FF, FG and Labour, that now is possibly the time for people who do have reasonable political opinions to look at organising a wholesale membership drive of Fianna Fail and create a decent party from within.
    You mean instead of hoping that the party crumbles, I should join it and help rebuild it into a honest, meaningful and credible alternative?
    I know that we need a decent opposition but seriously??? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    FF, FG & SF are outdated washed up civil war parties who have nothing to offer Ireland except decades more of the same ould sh1te.

    I hope FF in particular never recover, but don't underestimate the sheer stupidity of the Irish electorate and the natural subservience to the Almighty Gombeen. That and they still have their bootlickers in the Sunday Independent to do free PR for them. Sad really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Mikel91 wrote: »
    Lads honestly ye have no idea do ye.I dont mean to insult but my god...You both claim to have political interests but form what I cna tell you know as much as the average joe does.Do a bit more research into the party other than boards/politics.ie threads.

    Liam especially you.My god we know you hate FF,We heard it through too the teeth.You constantly make accusations and ignore peoples posts fully.When ever a proper,decent discussion happens about the party,be the thread praising or criticing them..You hijack with several others and turn into one of those people that call Joe Duffy and scream down the phone making things into a non nonsensical rant.Please...just grow up /rant

    You're clearly a FFer and not so neatly sidestepped my question regarding the difference between FF and FG - looking at it from a wider european perspective, I'm afraid it's not as self-evident as you seem to want to put it forward as.

    Accusing others of knowing nothing about politics while refusing to deal with the issue raised is a fairly see-through attempt to be honest. Also, accusing others of being of Joe Duffy's ilk while having a nonsensical rant yourself is entertaining to say the least. Now answer the question like a good chap


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    miju wrote: »
    Interestingly enough FG / Lab dont seem to be reckoned to be any less corrupt than FF going by historical standards and thats international ratings too ;)

    Look at the tribunal numbers. FG has had few people hauled up in comparison, I don't think Labour has ever had anyone.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,486 ✭✭✭miju


    Foxhound38 wrote: »
    Look at the tribunal numbers. FG has had few people hauled up in comparison, I don't think Labour has ever had anyone.

    Well like I said the internation corruption tables seem to think we've more or less stayed the same tribunals or no


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭The Scientician


    Victor wrote: »
    With who? Nobody would touch them with someone else's twelve foot barge pole.

    It remains to be seen. Just depends on the state of the economy in the run up to the next election. I would never have thought the Greens would have got into bed with FF but they did. Obviously though that was when FF were still riding high. I think definitely medium to long term others underestimate FF at their peril.


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