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UN finds Israeli raid on Flotilla unlawful

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Again, read pages 14 and 15 of the report when it explains the issue. Here's the operative bit, page 15.

    Under the laws of armed conflict, a blockade is the prohibition of all commerce with a defined enemy coastline. A belligerent who has established a lawful blockade is entitled to enforce that blockade on the high seas.

    (If you're not familiar with the terminology, 'High Seas' = 'International Waters')



    I also don't have the ability to declare blockades or states of conflicts with other people. The analogy is not particularly accurate.

    NTM
    You should be a lawyer..
    I think it's a question of right and wrong.
    Most people would see the boarding of the ship and it's violent aftermath as wrong. There is a question of proportion here. Whatever the 'perceived' legalities, excessive force was used. Just like in the 'war' on Gaza.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    If you weren't so phenomenally ignorant you'd realise that Sukkot is an important jewish holiday but your irrational dumbness warps your perception.
    More important than peace talks?
    When did 'peace' become a dirty word in any religion? Get your priorities right.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,165 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Johro wrote: »
    You should be a lawyer..

    Oddly enough, I did study law in college. However, all those hours spent poring over Lloyd's Law Review of 1886 or whatever in the Belfield library convinced me I wanted to do something more interesting for a living. (No offence to actual lawyers reading this, but it just wasn't for me!)
    I think it's a question of right and wrong.
    Most people would see the boarding of the ship and it's violent aftermath as wrong. There is a question of proportion here. Whatever the 'perceived' legalities, excessive force was used. Just like in the 'war' on Gaza.

    I think you have it reversed. Legalities are generally not a matter of perception. I either rob a bank, embezzle it, or I make a legal withdrawl. Not much perception involved. Determining whether or not something is 'excessive' is purely a judgement call, which comes back to the whole reason that the Mission decided the blocade was unlawful: In its opinion, the effect was disproportionate, it then applied that subjective assessment to the objective requirements of determining legality.

    NTM


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/26/jewish-activists-gaza-israel-blockade

    Should be fun. :)

    Will they attack and kill "their own"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Oddly enough, I did study law in college. However, all those hours spent poring over Lloyd's Law Review of 1886 or whatever in the Belfield library convinced me I wanted to do something more interesting for a living. (No offence to actual lawyers reading this, but it just wasn't for me!)



    I think you have it reversed. Legalities are generally not a matter of perception. I either rob a bank, embezzle it, or I make a legal withdrawl. Not much perception involved. Determining whether or not something is 'excessive' is purely a judgement call, which comes back to the whole reason that the Mission decided the blocade was unlawful: In its opinion, the effect was disproportionate, it then applied that subjective assessment to the objective requirements of determining legality.

    NTM
    Legalities are often a matter of perception. Judges make 'judgement calls' all the time on the evidence presented. If the action being disproportionate is 'subjective', or the opinion of the blockade being unlawful is 'subjective', so is the aid flotilla being a danger to Israel. Subjective.
    It doesn't change the fact that (well-meaning) people were killed unnecessarily. The ship wasn't loaded up with rocket propelled grenades. They could have boarded, confiscated whatever they considered illegal and let them carry on.
    This was, after all, an aid mission.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/26/jewish-activists-gaza-israel-blockade

    Should be fun. :)

    Will they attack and kill "their own"?

    Or it could be a false flag.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/26/jewish-activists-gaza-israel-blockade

    Should be fun. :)

    Will they attack and kill "their own"?

    :rolleyes:

    Considering its a "10-metre catamaran" they won't exactly have to use much force to stop it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    If you weren't so phenomenally ignorant you'd realise that Sukkot is an important jewish holiday but your irrational dumbness warps your perception.

    Could you try that again without insulting me?
    Surely an intelligent person like you can tell us all why Sukkot is so important that it is deemed necessary to miss one of the most vital meetings of the year, without resorting to being so abusive about it.

    Why such anger?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,822 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11422065

    Interesting map there to show how the Israelis have managed to make life hell for the natives in the occupied West Bank.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11422065

    Interesting map there to show how the Israelis have managed to make life hell for the natives in the occupied West Bank.

    I seen that yesterday, the settlements are against international law and nobody does a thing.

    _49266031_west_bank_464.gif


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Chairman Meow


    All this because someone told the jews there was a penny buried somewhere in palestine :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    All this because someone told the jews there was a penny buried somewhere in palestine :(

    Or because listening to that kind of joke for a few centuries just wears out the patience.....


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Oddly enough, I did study law in college. However, all those hours spent poring over Lloyd's Law Review of 1886 or whatever in the Belfield library convinced me I wanted to do something more interesting for a living. (No offence to actual lawyers reading this, but it just wasn't for me!)



    I think you have it reversed. Legalities are generally not a matter of perception. I either rob a bank, embezzle it, or I make a legal withdrawl. Not much perception involved. Determining whether or not something is 'excessive' is purely a judgement call, which comes back to the whole reason that the Mission decided the blocade was unlawful: In its opinion, the effect was disproportionate, it then applied that subjective assessment to the objective requirements of determining legality.

    NTM

    There's something a bit tragic about someone giving up the opportunity of a good education to join an army.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Not really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    karma_ wrote: »
    There's something a bit tragic about someone giving up the opportunity of a good education to join an army.

    Really?

    "If you can read this thank a teacher. If you can read this in English thank a Soldier."

    "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    Really?

    "If you can read this thank a teacher. If you can read this in English thank a Soldier."

    "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    "The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."

    Nice, empty clichéd phrases! Although I do like the last one, the first two are yawn inducing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    --Kaiser-- wrote: »
    Really?

    "If you can read this thank a teacher. If you can read this in English thank a Soldier."

    Is the irony of that actually lost on you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Fair play to these Israeli Jews who launched an aid boat to Gaza:

    http://jewishboattogaza.org
    Why we are launching this campaign

    A. To protest against and challenge the continuing blockade of Gaza, on the basis that it constitutes an illegal, collective punishment of the whole population and a grossly immoral act.

    For four years Israel’s blockade has confined the people of Gaza to subsistence living. This externally enforced poverty has created a public and mental health catastrophe. After Israel’s bombardment of Gaza eighteen months ago, there followed even tighter, ever changing and more arbitrary controls, including a total bar on the import of building materials to reconstruct shattered houses, sewage and water systems .

    The blockade has also meant Gaza’s population being trapped in one of the most densely populated places on earth. People suffering serious illnesses which cannot be treated within the territory can only seek medical treatment outside Gaza with the permission and at the whim of the Israeli military. Ordinary travel in and out for education, family, business, cultural or sporting reasons continues to be subject to near total prohibition.

    Israel also polices Gaza’s long coast, excluding passenger and commercial traffic and denying any opportunity of legitimate trading. In addition, Gaza’s fishermen are prevented from exploiting their own territorial waters. Confined instead to the highly polluted inshore region, they are at constant risk of live fire from the Israeli navy.

    Most crucially, Gaza is still prevented from restoring its economy by Israel’s total ban on exports. This means Gaza’s workforce will continue to be without jobs and purchasing power. Even if more consumer goods get in, its people will still be reliant on charity to survive.

    Apparently it has now been siezed by the Israeli Navy:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11425408


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,565 ✭✭✭losthorizon


    I fear the peace talks are going to come to an end in the next few days. Isreal has already resumed building in the occupied territories, killed a palestinian fisherman who strayed over some demarcation lines while fishing by mistake and killed some palestinians last night. The Palestinian leadership have made it known from the start and the Americans agree that building shouldnt go on while negotiations take place. Israel does not want peace.

    http://www.euronews.net/2010/09/27/mideast-talks-threatened-as-settlement-ban-expires/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,165 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    karma_ wrote: »
    There's something a bit tragic about someone giving up the opportunity of a good education to join an army.

    Are you implying that a modern military should not have well educated personnel? Surely in today's environment it's more important than ever. (To be clear, I have my degree and have started a masters'. I just chose not to apply it in the law field)

    Besides, I'm well paid, and enjoy my work. Something too many people can't say, so what's to complain about?

    NTM


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Are you implying that a modern military should not have well educated personnel? Surely in today's environment it's more important than ever.

    NTM
    I have to grudgingly agree..
    It's a shame though that the army also attracts trigger happy, dimwitted, prejudicial, redneck yokels such as the ones that amused themselves in Abu Ghraib prison.
    Also, well educated people aren't necessarily intelligent or reasonable.


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