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Irish Crime and Punishment - Executions, irish justice,gallows, folk lore.

  • 19-06-2010 11:48am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭


    There are always goodies and baddies and one thing that always gets me is that Irish history always gets defined by the "struggle for independence " when there was a lot more to life.

    So after reading about the execution of Ronnie Lee Gardner by firing squad in Utah yesterday made it an ideal time for a salacious themed thread about the subject.

    Its not intended to be a judgemental or even politically correct or rigidly factual so a bit of folklore and ducking stools are welome too.

    So I will kick off with a few.In 1640 the Bishop of Waterford and Lismore , John Atherton was convicted of buggery and executed under a law he had campaigned for

    220px-Atherton%2C_John_%281598-1640%29_%26_Childe%2C_John_%2816_-1640%29_-_1641.jpg
    As the Bishop of Waterford and Lismore, Atherton successfully campaigned for the passage of an act that instituted the death penalty for the vice of [URL="javascript:glossary('buggery','')"]buggery[/URL]. In 1640, he became one of the first men accused under this statute.
    A lawyer named Butler, involved in a dispute with the bishop over the ownership of some land at Killoges, near Waterford, made a complaint to Parliament in which he accused Atherton of committing buggery with his steward and tithe proctor John Childe. The bishop strongly denied this specific charge, but Childe confessed

    On the morning of his execution, Atherton declared himself unworthy of the Communion of the Dead, though he had written his wife that he expected to see her in Heaven. As he prepared for transport, the bishop sought to have his arms pinioned to his sides with a black ribbon, but the sheriff insisted on using the cheap cord typically reserved for common criminals.
    Atherton was hanged on Gallows Green on December 5, 1640. At ten o'clock that night, he was buried in a far corner of the yard at Christ Church in a place where some rubbish used to be cast and where no one else lay.
    His partner in sodomy, Childe, was hanged at Bandon Bridge in March 1641

    http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/atherton_j.html


    Before Stephens Green was a park it was even a leper colony. It was also a place of public execution. So who died there and why.Under what laws.

    ALL other major towns, Kilkenny, Carlow etc had executions, floggings, brandings, public amputations etc and even a Mayor of Galway is supposed to have been the hangman for his own son.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Hangings of 4 pirates on Stephens Green in 1766 .A Nugget on Stephens Green but I seem to remember seeing something on the north side of the Green mentioning the execution of a teenage girl there for stealing a dress or something. Real bloody azzizes stuff.

    The west side of Stephen's Green, or Rapparee Fields, as it was called, was not built upon until the beginning of this century. There was a prejudice felt against it, as it was thought that at one time it was a place of execution for criminals, Gallows Hill being in close proximity to it. It would seem very doubtful that any executions took place during the latter half of the last century; as we have seen, the inhabitants of the Green were of the very upper-ten, "smart people," who would never have suffered such an indignity in their neighbourhood. [This prejudice continued until within the last thirty or forty years; the reason was forgotten, but the evil reputation still clung to the locality.] Moreover, the official "hanging-places" were either Kilmainham (where Emmet was hanged), or Baggotrath (Baggot's Castle), which then stood in the centre of pasturelands and quarries. Hither came the criminals from Newgate Prison in Cornmarket. The procession of these miserable wretches passed through Rapparee Fields, skirting the Beaux' Walk on the north side of the Green, passed the burial-ground in Merrion Row, and so reached Baggotrath, on the site of which the Convent of the Sisters of Mercy now stands, the pasturelands being converted into Baggot Street.
    [The Gentleman's Magazine mentions the execution of four pirates taking place in Stephen's Green in 1776; but this has been found to be an error, the date of the pirates' execution being 1766, and the place Baggotrath Castle" (Gaskin's "Irish Varieties"). Mr. FitzPatrick in his "Sham Squire" fixes Stephen's Green as the place of execution of Mrs. Llewellyn in 1796. This is manifestly an error. The same writer gives a list of executions said to have taken place in the Green.]
    [One of the broadsides of the day attacking the Provost of Trinity College, Hely Hutchinson, runs:
    Oh, I'll go to Stephen's Green in a cart, in a cart,
    Pressed down with age and sin,
    With a tuck beneath my chin.]

    http://www.chaptersofdublin.com/books/PictDub/picturesque6.htm


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    'The walking gallows'

    Jack Hepenstal was a lieutenent in the Irish Yeomanry, who earned himself the nickname of "The Walking Gallows" at the time of the Irish Rebellion of 1798. A smiling giant of a man, Lt Hepenstal would roam about the countryside seizing any stray peasant whom he suspected might be a rebel. He would take off his silk cravat, and with the aid of a companion use it to string up his victim behind his back, after which he would ‘trot about with his burden like jolting carthorse’ until the man was dead. After Jack Hepenstal's death in 1802, some wag wrote for him the following epitaph: “Here lie the bones of Hepenstal; Judge, jury, gallows, rope and all” This epitaph, used metaphorically, is still quoted today to emphasise the importance of separating the legislature from the executive.

    Following the death of Jack's brother George Hepenstal in 1805, his sister-in-law Hester Hepenstal, nee Watson, married Dr Patrick Duigenan, the Irish politician famous for his rabid anti-Catholic opinions. It is only because of Sir Jonah Barrington's reminiscences of Dr Patrick Duigenan in 'Historic Memoirs of Ireland'(1833) that we have the description of Lt Jack Hepenstal's barbaric practices at the time of the Irish Rebellion.

    Return to Heppenstall One-Name Study Main Page here

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mellor2/Lt%20Jack%20Hepenstal.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    This link here gives Gallows Hill as near Upper Baggot Street

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=WOSaTzKstL0C&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=gallows+hill+dublin&source=bl&ots=ut08uJkc69&sig=0Sfgu0kscnn4bEyFq0kLkdZPA8c&hl=en&ei=CfQcTIDiL6K60gSQromiDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=gallows%20hill%20dublin&f=false

    Does anyone know where??

    I imagine there are a few places dotted around Ireland called Gallows Hill or Green.

    I found a great link here for Dublin

    http://kilmainham.blogspot.com/2006/01/stop-1-gallows-hill-1783-1796.html

    You even had a few burnings like Mary Purfield in 1783

    Stephens Green & Newgate for the City and Kilmainham for the County


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    .

    <H2>Matts Story


    Kilkenny the medieval capital of Ireland stands in the light of the majestic Kilkenny castle. In years gone by all castles had their own mills which were served by local peasants, who would turn their crops in to their landlord in lieu of rent. These crops were delivered daily to a young miller called Matt who ran the Mill at it's present site of John's bridge.
    Now young Matt was an enterprising young lad, he kept the best of barley one side to develop his own home brew. As the years went by so Matt's brew grew stronger and more popular, and he opened his own tavern in the mill.
    Condemned men were lead to the gallows below Greensbridge, and their last stop was Matt's tavern, it was said many of Kilkenny's most infamous thieves and rogues had their last request granted of fresh fish from the adjoining River Nore, a loaf of home-made soda bread and a jug of Matt's ale.
    As the story goes twice a year the ghost of Matt is seen in the cellar bar of Matt the Millers, just to be sure the finest of brews are still being served to the condemned rogues and thieves of Kilkenny!
    </H2>


  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Eamonster


    I was looking at Rocque's map of Dublin 1759 and the gallows is at the crossroads of Baggot and Fitzwilliam street (or thereabouts).

    I must have a look for the graveyard in Merrion Row, because that's where Darkey (or Dorcas) Kelly was buried back in the 1760s.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Eamonster wrote: »

    I must have a look for the graveyard in Merrion Row, because that's where Darkey (or Dorcas) Kelly was buried back in the 1760s.

    Who was Darkey Kelly ??


  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Eamonster


    You'll find her on page 80 in this link. Not much is known about her...

    http://www.archive.org/stream/irelandbeforeurs00fitzuoft#page/80/mode/2up/search/darkey+kelly

    Darkey Kelly's Pub is built on the site of her brothel, The Maiden Tower opposite Christ Church.

    But apparantly, after she was burnt alive, her body was taken to Merrion. That could be either the Huguenot Graveyard in Merrion Row, or possibly a graveyard up in Mount Merrion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Nice one Eamonster -

    Here is a list for cork executions in the 18 & 19th century and while some are reloatively minor like linen & stocking theft most show up what you would expect.

    http://geocitiessites.com/corklh/executions1.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    The execution of Walter Lynch by his dad the Warden of Galway.

    Maybe the word lynching came from this but tradition has it that in the year 1624 a Mayor of Galway personally hanged his own son.

    Read a penny dreadful account here

    http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/WardenGalwayDPJ1-29/index.php

    WardenGalwayDPJ1-29.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭PatsytheNazi


    CDfm wrote: »
    This link here gives Gallows Hill as near Upper Baggot Street

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=WOSaTzKstL0C&pg=PA99&lpg=PA99&dq=gallows+hill+dublin&source=bl&ots=ut08uJkc69&sig=0Sfgu0kscnn4bEyFq0kLkdZPA8c&hl=en&ei=CfQcTIDiL6K60gSQromiDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=gallows%20hill%20dublin&f=false

    Does anyone know where??

    I imagine there are a few places dotted around Ireland called Gallows Hill or Green.

    I found a great link here for Dublin

    http://kilmainham.blogspot.com/2006/01/stop-1-gallows-hill-1783-1796.html

    You even had a few burnings like Mary Purfield in 1783

    Stephens Green & Newgate for the City and Kilmainham for the County
    There was one in Carrick on Shannon. Think the name may have been changed due to housing development or whatever, but quiet a few men were hung there after 1798.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Murdoc3.jpg

    Murcod Ballagh was guiollotined near Merton wherever that is and I started a thread once hoping to learn more.

    Incidentally, an Irishman developed the standard drop method for execution by hanging known as the Haughton Drop and he was Samuel Haughton from Carlow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    There was one in Carrick on Shannon. Think the name may have been changed due to housing development or whatever, but quiet a few men were hung there after 1798.

    Did we have Bloody Azzizes here ? How was criminal justice adminstered.?

    What was gaelic justice like ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    There was more than one George Best you know and one was the Captain of a ship the Caswell on which there was a mutiny.
    There is a link here with lots of crime stuff
    http://irishcriminology.com/05a.html
    But look out for the correspondence between the Hangman William Marwood and the Governor of Cork Jail in 1876 over the execution.
    http://irishcriminology.com/05a.html
    An aside after independence there was no official irish Hangman and when an execution was to be carried out it wasusual to hire the British Hangmen and thats what happened from Independence in 1922 until the aboloition of Capital Punishment in the 1960's.
    For a country surrounded by water there is little or no theme in Irishcriminology which addresses that fact. Seldom does one, therefore, run across a murder or a mutiny that was played out on the local stage, as it were. Sea-faring murders and exploits , it seems, belong to a shadowy history that no one quite remembers past the mention of Brien Boru and the Danes at Clontarf.
    Imagine my surprise, then, when I discovered this beauty in the National Archives. I felt an immediate compulsion to see it through, gather what papers there were available on it, and record it. My only regret was that the Archives could not produce the original map and sketch which was presented at the first trial; and no matter how I sought to find it – for it must be there, somewhere – nothing was forthcoming.Fortunately, as can be seen from the following extracts, an image of the real Caswell (which occupies pride of place on the book cover)as well as images of the dramatis personae, were retrievable from all kinds of unlikely places ,and with the assistance of several of those herein acknowledged.Out of small references, therefore, the story led on to two major mutiny trials in Cork in the mid-1870s – the first into the behaviour of Emmanuel Bombos, a young Greek, and, the second into the part played by Joseph Pistoria, a Sicilian. These trials afforded us some rare accounts of nineteenth century executions, and account of the attitudes of the public – the people of Cork particularly -- to the fate of the unfortunate offenders.There is no disguising the brutality of the mutiny or the ferocity of the counter-mutiny. Nevertheless, they cannot be dislocated from the prevailing attitudes of sailors at the time, or the prevailing attitudes to sailors, especially Greeks and Turkish sailors. Neither can the personality of Captain George Best be left out of the equation. In an extended Introduction I have tried to deal with the historical aspects of these ‘roles’, fully aware of the fact that words cannot replace actions.What follows here is a Synopsis, Acknowledgements, and an Introduction to the story of The Riddle of The Caswell Mutiny.
    Birching for children was still used in Ireland until at least 1943 .

    <H5>News Chronicle, London, 22 October 1943

    Four boys to be whipped - one of them twice


    Ordering four boys aged from 11½ to 13 to be birched for thefts and housebreaking at Dundalk, Ulster, yesterday, District Justice Goff directed that one lad should receive 6 strokes on each of two days, and the others 6 strokes each.
    He added: "There is a lot of spurious sympathy being spouted about birching boys. It might do good to some adults if birching was extended to them as well." As to juveniles, he suggested that the birch should be applied "fairly heavily" and that the parents and an NSPCC inspector should be present.

    Beating or birching of Children as a sentencing option on a Crimimal Conviction was on the statute books until 1997


    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2005/is_3_38/ai_n13810111/


    So what was the criminal justice system like in Ireland ???


  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭oncevotedff


    100_0583.jpg

    Marwood's business card on display in Kilmainham.

    List of executions in Ireland in the 19th century

    http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/ir1835.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    Did we have Bloody Azzizes here ? How was criminal justice adminstered.?

    What was gaelic justice like ?

    Are you referring to Brehon Law? It was in common usage in Ireland until 1603 - in spite of various previous attempts to ban it. It was a system based, among other things, on paid compensation - and not prisons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Are you referring to Brehon Law? It was in common usage in Ireland until 1603 - in spite of various previous attempts to ban it. It was a system based, among other things, on paid compensation - and not prisons.

    So there were no prisons - was there the death penalty and how were criminals dealt with. We know there was slavery and a class system in place.

    If you had no money or goods to pay compensation with what happened?

    Were there floggings etc ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    So there were no prisons - was there the death penalty and how were criminals dealt with. We know there was slavery and a class system in place.

    If you had no money or goods to pay compensation with what happened?

    Were there floggings etc ?

    The Brehon Law system was quite an elaborate system of compensation which sometimes, in the case of unlawful murder, could stretch out into generations. The laws were not at all like the Judeo/Christian laws that we now have i.e. based on punishment of an individual: whole families could be held responsible for the crime of the criminal actions of one family member. Compensation was key to the system but if in some cases exclusion was sometimes used i.e. exclusion from the principal feasts, like not being allowed to participate in the Samain or Lunasa festivals which were central to the life of the tribe. The Brehon in charge of the case had the power to decide what the redress was to be - much more powerful and flexible than our "presiding" judges - and there are surviving documents of the lists drawn up showing the "worth" of some individuals who had committed crimes.

    I've never read of any floggings - it wasn't really in the spirit of compensation. You - and your family - were expected to "pay back" to the person whom you had stolen from or done whatever to.

    Some Brehons were permanently attached to certain upper class families, and some travelled around and were called on to address issues that might arise between people.


    The Brehon law system is not something easily explained. Fergus Kelly has done the best work on this IMO. His book "A Guide to Early Irish Law" is still the best around.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Its not an exact science -still it would be nice to build up a picture on how society operated and changed but with examples.

    I noticed that in the hangings link there were very few in Cork proving yet again the superiority of the county and its people ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »

    I noticed that in the hangings link there were very few in Cork proving yet again the superiority of the county and its people ;)

    Or it shows their shrewd ability not to get caught!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    Its not an exact science -still it would be nice to build up a picture on how society operated and changed but with examples.

    Many of the stresses between English and Irish society prior to the Reformation centred around the issue of law and consequent paying of taxes. Type or order of succession for example being one stress point. Under the old Brehon Law system, the leader of a Tuath/tribe was voted on after the death of a local king or chieftain. Whereas under English Law primogenitor was the rule and the Irish system of the Dail where the discussion and vote took place was proscribed by the English authorities.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I found this link and I do imagine the death penalty was in use and certainly I have seen stuff related to banishment or someone being put to sea in a small boat.

    So loosing rank would be fairly bad or to become enslaved. If a person got kicked out of their tribe it was bad karma and you were probably fairly in the doghouse if no one else would take you in. Sort of an outlaw.

    The nature of the society seems a bit more family & tribal based. You had feuds and wars.

    http://draeconin.com/database/celtlaw.htm

    Essentially, the ruling structure was not a nation state as we would know it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    I found this link and I do imagine the death penalty was in use and certainly I have seen stuff related to banishment or someone being put to sea in a small boat.

    So loosing rank would be fairly bad or to become enslaved. If a person got kicked out of their tribe it was bad karma and you were probably fairly in the doghouse if no one else would take you in. Sort of an outlaw.

    The nature of the society seems a bit more family & tribal based. You had feuds and wars.

    http://draeconin.com/database/celtlaw.htm

    There is a strict copyright notice on this link so it doesn't allow to cut and paste. But if you go into the "Irish Law" section it does a pretty good job at explaining the compensation system for unlawful killing.
    He is using Fergus Kelly's work I think.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Essentially, the ruling structure was not a nation state as we would know it.

    Yes, it was a very different system from the feudal system that operated throughout Europe at the time - which is why early Irish Christianity did not develop like the rest of Europe either. We developed a monastic system, not an urban diocesan model. Until we were forced to that is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm



    Here is a fascinating story on the Maamtrasna Murders in Galway. This is the backgound and verdicts are below.


    <H1>The Maamtrasna Murders, August 17 1882

    Galway Advertiser, January 28, 2010.
    21496_thumb.jpg Before the magistrates at Cong: Ten men were accused of the Maamtrasna murders

    Ronnie O’gorman
    Early on Friday August 18 1882, John Collins, a tenant farmer, having heard disturbances during the night coming from his neighbours’ house, the Joyces, went to check if all was well. He must have feared the worst because he brought with him two neighbours, Mary and Margaret O’Brien. They discovered an appalling sight. Even today, when our senses have been hardened by so many atrocities, it was a scene of savage murder that cried to heaven. No mercy was shown to this unfortunate family.
    Inside the door, which was broken off at its hinges, lay the naked corpse of John Joyce. He was shot twice in the body. Nearby on the bed his wife Bridget lay dead, her skull crushed by a blow over her right eye. Her son Michael (17 years), was lying beside her with two bullet wounds. He was choking and barely alive (he would later die from his wounds). In the inner room, lying across a bed, was the mother-in-law, Margaret. She was stripped, and dead from a deep wound on her forehead. Beside her was Peggy, in her mid teens, also bludgeoned to death. Lying beside her was 12-years-old Patsy with two serious wounds on his head, but alive. He was very frightened. The two family dogs were upset and would not leave the house. There were bullet marks on the kitchen wall.
    We can imagine the gasps, and screams of shock as the gruesome scene was revealed. The murder of practically the entire Joyce family, in their small cabin in the heart of the Mayo mountains on the shores of Lough Mask, must have rocked the local community. About 250 families endeavouring to make a living from the rocky soil, or by rearing sheep under the shadow of Connemara’s majestic Maamtrasna mountain, lived nearby. Later that day, they gathered on the hillside as the local RIC Constable Johnston (who spoke no Irish but sub Constable Lenihen acted as interpreter), and the local magistrate Newton Brady, held an inquest. The two surviving boys testified that the murders had been committed by a group of three or four men, all of whom “ had their faces blackened”.*
    The shock waves from Maamtrasna, however, were felt as far as London. On August 20 The Times commented: ‘No ingenuity can exaggerate the brutal ferocity of a crime which spared neither the grey hairs of an aged woman nor the innocent child of 12 years who slept beside her. It is an outburst of unredeemed and inexplicable savagery before which one stands appalled, and oppressed with a painful sense of the failure of our vaunted civilisation.’

    Passions were high

    The Maamtrasna Murders happened at a time of deep unrest in Ireland. Three years previously, the most effective protest against the insidious landlord domination of the vast majority of the Irish people found expression in the Land League. It was established on October 21 1879, in the Imperial Hotel, Castlebar, by a former Fenian prisoner Michael Davitt. In a sweeping revolutionary statement, the League proclaimed the right of every tenant farmer to own the land he worked on. Because of the abuses heaped on tenants by some landlords, it had an immediate impact. It also found a powerful voice in its president Charles Stewart Parnell, a Protestant landowner in County Wicklow. Parnell was initially seen as an unlikely leader of a mass agrarian movement, but Davitt declared him ‘an Englishman of the strongest type moulded for an Irish purpose.’
    Parnell’s policies were so effective that it vaulted him into the unchallenged leadership of the advanced wing of the Irish Parliamentary Party. In its time, through a series of Land Acts, it achieved extraordinary concessions for the Irish tenant, far in excess of what was ever achieved for their contemporaries working on the land in England, Scotland, or Wales.
    Parnell advocated peaceful protest, such as non payment of rent, the effective use of ‘boycott’, and solidarity and support for those who were evicted. But passions were high. Violence frequently took a vicious turn.

    Near hysteria

    Principle targets for murder were landlords or their agents, many of whom were soft targets. In January of same year of the Maamtrasna murders, Joseph and John Huddy, who worked for Lord Ardilaun,( a member of the Guinness family, a generous philanthropist who lived mainly at Ashford Castle, Cong) were murdered and their bodies dumped in Lough Mask. John Henry Blake, an agent of the despised Lord Clanricard, was shot dead in broad daylight in Loughrea in June 1882. A Claremorris landlord Walter Burke; and Ballinrobe landlord Lord Mountmorres (who was considered an enlightened man who never evicted his tenants), were both shot dead. The British government was determined to stamp out these outrages by whatever means. Parnell and other leaders such as John Dillon and Conor O’Kelly were arrested on the basis of allegedly seditious speeches. They were held, without trial, in Kilmainham Gaol.
    But what brought the country to a standstill, and near hysteria, were the stabbings in Phoenix Park, on May 6 1882, of Lord Frederick Cavendish, the newly appointed Chief Secretery for Ireland,** and Thomas Henry Burke, the permanent under-secretary, the most senior Irish civil servant. Draconian measures were immediately introduced giving the police increased powers of search and arrest. New three-judge courts were set up to avoid intimidation of witnesses; and compensation for murder, injury, or damage to property was to be levied on the jurisdiction in which the crimes were committed.
    Then on August 17 the so called Maamtrasna murders were committed. It was a crime that the local police dreaded not only because of its horrific nature, but because of the unlikelihood that the perpetrators would ever be found. Usually in a closeknit community, such as at Maamtrasna, the murderers would never be revealed, at least never to the police. But surprisingly, the day following the murders, Anthony Joyce (a cousin of the murdered man), with his brother Johnny and his nephew Paddy, all from the nearby parish of Cappanacreha, three miles from the murder scene, went to the police with an astonishing tale. These Joyces, known as ‘the Maolras’ Joyces (to distinguish them from the many Joyce families in the area), gave a sworn statement that they had followed a crowd of men that fateful night, they saw them joined by other men, and saw them approach John Joyce’s house at Maamtrasna. Hidden behind a bush, they heard the noise at the door, and saw some of the men enter the house, while others stayed outside. Anthony heard shouting and screeching. ‘He could not distinguish the screams of the women from those of the men.’
    He named 10 men whom he alleged were out that night as follows: Anthony Philbin, Tom Casey, Martin Joyce, Myles Joyce, Patrick Joyce, and Tom Joyce of Cappanacreha. Pat Joyce (Shanvalleycahill), Patrick Casey, John Casey, and Michael Casey.
    They were duly rounded up and brought before the magistrates at Cong, and charged.

    Next week: The blood feud among the Joyce family has tragic consequences.


    Now the article below is written by Joe Joyce and I wonder does he have any connection with either of the men on the scaffold.


    Well how many Joyces can you name from Galway, well there was Lord Haw Haw, the Seoige Sisters and this guy who loudly declared his innocence from the gallows in Irish.
    The Irish Times - Wednesday, December 16, 2009
    December 16th, 1882: Harrowing Maamtrasna executions

    JOE JOYCE
    Newspaper reports of official executions in the 19th century sometimes contained gruesome details as hangings were not always carried out as clinically as they were supposed to be. The hanging of three men in Galway jail for the infamous Maamtrasna murders, including one who was innocent, was relatively straightforward, but its description in the next day’s newspaper was still harrowing.
    WHEN THE light of coming day was yet dim Marwood [the executioner] entered the cells of the condemned. All three had spent a restless night . . . At half-past six o’clock they were desired to prepare themselves for the visit of their priest. Food was offered to them, but was in each case refused and at seven o’clock Mass was said by the Rev Mr Newell, whose presence tended to calm them . . . About eight o’clock Father Grevan administered the last sacraments of their church, and when Marwood made his appearance everything was in a state of preparedness . . .
    At a quarter-past 8 o’clock the prison doors were thrown open . . . With startled looks they marked the wild, hollow eyes, sunken cheeks, and shrunken forms of each other, but not a word passed between them. Myles Joyce came first, between two warders, bareheaded, repeating in Irish the responses to the prayers which were being read by the Rev Mr Grevan. Then came Pat Casey, pinioned, silent, and with a look of great agony on his features. Last appeared Pat Joyce, taller than the others, wearing his hat, silent, too, and walking with firm and steady step . . . In the order in which the culprits had left the cells they mounted the scaffold, Pat Joyce going up two steps at a time, and without receiving the least assistance whatever. Myles Joyce was placed to the right, Pat Casey at the left, Pat Joyce, the taller, being in the centre.
    Marwood then commenced the work of pinioning the knees, beginning with Myles Joyce . . . While upon the drop, Myles Joyce continued to speak volubly and in an excited way. It was impossible to gather the meaning of much that fell from him, even by Irish-speaking persons who were present; but the following sentences have been interpreted for me by one who understands and speaks the language thoroughly, and who was close enough to hear the greater part of what he said.
    These sentences were: “I am going before my God. I was not there at all. I had no hand or part in it. I am as innocent as a child in the cradle. It is a poor thing to take this life away on a stage; but I have my priest with me.”
    The other culprits were silent and passive, and made no statement of any kind from the scaffold. Myles Joyce, on the contrary, continued speaking rapidly, even after Marwood had drawn the white cap over his face and fixed the noose around his neck, and was, in fact, at the moment the bolt was drawn speaking . . . The instant Marwood touched the levers the three bodies instantly disappeared.
    Two of the ropes remained perfectly motionless, but the third, that by which Myles Joyce was hanged, could be seen by those who watched it closely to vibrate, and swing slightly backwards and forwards. It soon became evident, from Marwood’s behaviour, that there had been a hitch of some kind or other, and he muttered, “bother the fellow”, sat down on the scaffold, laid hold of the rope, and moved it backwards and forwards.
    As will be seen from what happened afterwards at the inquest, this incident did not pass unobserved, and it would certainly appear that Joyce was not killed as rapidly as the others, and that the man struggled for some time before succumbing


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    What can happen when 5 Guys named Kruhoor go on the lash in Glemgarrif

    Inse an t-Sagairt

    The mass rock at Inse and t-Sagairt in the town land of Innisfoyle (locally known as Slios) has for generations been a place of pilgrimage and reverence for the people of Bonane. There is a very strong folk belief that a priest was murdered while celebrating mass there during penal times.
    Folk belief has it that this event occurred in 1829. At that time there was woman in Glengarriff, known as Nell na Deataighe. Nell ran a Shibeen (Illegal pub) and a house of ill repute! It was in her house that the murder was plotted!
    There was still a price of £45 on the head of a priest and this provided an incentive, not to mention immunity from prosecution. Five men with the name Conchabhar, (pronounced "Kruhoor" meaning Con or Cornelius) plotted the murder in Nell's Shibeen. They were known by their nicknames of Conchabhar Randum, Conchabhar Raibheach, Conchabhar Clampar, Conchabhar Chuithig and Conchabhar Mhiceire.
    They became aware that mass was to be celebrated at the mass rock at Inse an t-Sagairt. They crossed the mountain from Glengarriff and made their way down a rocky ravine in the mountain, clearly visible from the Baureragh road, known as Eisc Caol. They came upon the priest while he was celebrating mass and with no chance for escape they dragged him to a fallen tree nearby where he was decapitated.
    The priest's clerk was taken prisoner and he together with the severed head was first taken to a house, no longer in existence, near Killowen, Kenmare. Blood from the head dripped on the flagstone of the door and legend has it that this stain could not be removed; even when the stone was replaced the stain reappeared!
    The clerk was taken to Dromore Castle, where he was released on the strand and two mastiffs set loose on him for the sport of his captors.
    Being a strong swimmer he took to the water where he outmanoeuvred the dogs. Grabbing a dog by the scruff of the neck with each hand he headed for the other side of the bay, some three miles away.
    Propelled by the powerful animals he had little difficulty in reaching the far shore where he disposed of the dogs before making good his escape.
    A journey to Cork by the perpetrators to claim the reward proved in vain. Catholic Emancipation had just been won so the money was never paid and the head was dumped in the River Lee


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Not justice here, happened in Co. Tipperary and it wasn't that long ago either
    It's a long article, I won't post it all but here is the link

    http://www.irishidentity.com/extras/supernat/stories/cleary.htm

    On March 15, 1895, twenty-eight year old Bridget Cleary, a cooper’s wife, disappeared from her cottage near Clonmel in County Tipperary. Immediately, strange and lurid rumours began circulating the neighbourhood about what had happened. Some said she ran off with an egg seller, others supposed it was an aristocratic foxhunter who had taken young Bridget away. Swirling amid rumours was the barely whispered, but widely held, belief that Bridget had gone with no mortal man; rather, she had gone off with the fairies. The mystery deepened when seven days later her body was discovered, bent, broken and badly burned in a shallow grave. Within a few days, the unimaginable truth came to light: for almost a week before her death Bridget had been confined, ritually starved, threatened, physically and verbally abused, exorcised and, finally, burned to death by her husband, Michael Cleary, her father and extended family who confused her bronchial medical condition with a “fairy dart.” They had all become convinced that “their Bridgie” had been taken from them and her fairy-possed body left behind to deceive them.

    She was a stylish dressmaker with additional independent income from keeping hens, who eschewed the customary shawls and scarves of her peers for hats and cashmere jackets. Her husband was a cooper from a neighbouring town who also had a good income. That, along with their childless state, had made them relatively well-off compared to their neighbours and family. The Cleary’s were friendly with their neighbours - an “emergency man”, or caretaker for the landlord who had moved into a farm after a family was evicted during the land wars of the early 1890’s. These neighbours were shunned by a small community resentful of such opportunism. Bridget did the shopping for them and may have been the young husband’s lover. She was out delivering some eggs and hoping to get payment owed from her uncle, and caught a cold that possibly developed into TB on her two-mile trek home. Over the next week Bridget’s condition worsened, yet the doctor, a drunk, refused to come, while the priest stayed 20 minutes and merely gave the last rites. Soon Michael Cleary and Bridget’s uncle, Jack Dunne, a seanchai well versed in herb lore, began to circulate the story that Bridget had been taken by the fairies, and the woman in the bed was a changeling. Some herbal cures were prescribed and forced down Bridget’s throat - she was also manhandled and held over the fire on Thursday, March 15, while being repeatedly asked if she was indeed Bridget or a changeling. Several family members assisted, and neighbours were present the evening before her death. Several more tests were conducted by her male relatives to see if she was truly Bridget - including throwing urine and chicken droppings on her.

    By the next morning, she appeared to recover and was up, dressed and out of bed the following evening, when neighbours came at her request to verify that she was better, and not a changeling. After the neighbours left, seemingly still not convinced that she was truly his wife, Michael Cleary tried to force Bridget to eat three pieces of bread before he would give her a cup of tea- she ate two and insisted on the tea. He waved a burning stick in her face, causing her clothing to catch fire. She passed out, and he threw paraffin oil on the “changeling” and burned her to death, all the while screaming that she wasn’t his wife, that his wife would appear riding on a white horse at a ruined hill fort the following evening, when he would cut the cords that bound her with a black-handled knife. On 14 March they held her over the fire to drive the spirits out, and on 15 March Bridget’s husband set fire to her nightgown, throwing on lamp-oil to make the fire burn more fiercely. “She’s not my wife”, he told the assembled people.

    “You’ll soon see her go up the chimney”. Brandishing a kitchen knife at her brothers, he forced one of them to help him carry her to a shallow grave. Shortly afterwards, some men reported to their local priest that young Bridget Cleary, who was known to have been ill, had been burned to death by family members, including her husband, in a case of fairy exorcism. The priest in turn went to the police, who found Bridget’s charred body and arrested nine family members, neighbours and friends in connection with the incident. The subsequent trial became a weapon in the hands of Tories opposed to Home Rule for Ireland. After all, how could one grant political autonomy to a people still so in the grip of superstition? Michael Cleary was sentenced to 15 years after which he emigrated to Canada. Tom McIntyre told me an intriguing story from the Clonmel area some time ago when a young man (possibly a Canadian) was observed in the vicinity of the Cleary household only to disappear again. Did Michael re-marry and have a family?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    A fascinating story, and I had a thread on it.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055739655

    One thing is for certain -the judge did not believe the fairy defence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Reading that thread now, thanks

    You know if it happened in medieval Ireland I wouldn't be that shocked
    But it was 1895! :eek:

    Strange indeed


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Glad you like it. My grandparents would have been near contemporaries of theirs. Now it would take a huge leap for me to believe that they or their friends or neighbours in rural Ireland believed in fairies or banshees because they didn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    It's quite common though.

    Most areas have a fairy fort which the farmer simply refuses to touch, generally in the middle of a large field so in the way of machinery too.

    I often remember my grandparents talking about the scream of the banshee and someone would die that night.
    Terrible thing to tell an 8 year old, I was terrified :eek:
    hey check my username, I was scarred for life :D
    I'm not saying they believe in them but it's part of the culture and people do talk about them, this was Tipperary also

    Very detailed thread there, I'm enjoying it and will check out that book by Angela Bourke.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    A massive story and still controversial.

    But -telling an 8 year old of a boogie man when its cats or foxes mating happens in about every culture. I am sure there are a lot of mounds on farms that may be graves or whatever that people avoid ploughing for obvious reasons.


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