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Dublin Marathon 2011 Novices Mentored Thread

  • 23-04-2011 6:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Welcome to the Dublin City Marathon 2011 mentored thread!
    Back in ancient Boards history, --amadeus—started the first mentored thread to guide novices through their training for DCM 2009. One of the runners that year, Rainbow Kirby, was the mentor in last year’s thread. I was a novice last year, and now it’s my turn to pass on my wisdom.

    The thread is open to anyone. Most people will be running their first marathon, most will be running Dublin, and most will be aiming for a time slower than 3.50, but other people are welcome to join in.

    First piece of advice?
    DON’T DO IT
    Seriously, don’t enter Dublin this year. Too many people start running and go straight into running marathons. It’s a bad idea. You are much better off spending a couple of years running shorter distances.
    First, because shorter distances have their own challenges and rewards. If you go straight to the longer distances its easy to neglect running speed and just plod along. Learning to run faster is harder in some ways, but is also fun and will stand to you if/when you run longer distances.
    Second, because marathon training is hard. If you don’t have a good base of running fitness before you start training, your likelihood of getting injured goes way up. Every year there are a few casualties from the novices group who have to drop out because of injury. And even if you don’t get injured, you will be completely exhausted by the end of training.
    So do yourself a favour. Spend the next year running regularly, getting stronger, and getting better at the shorter distances. And do the marathon in 2012.



    Not convinced? Fair enough, I didn’t listen either. Let’s start with some questions then –
    • Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
    • Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?
    • How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
    • What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
    • How many days a week can you train?
    • Why are you running this marathon?


    Through the thread, I’ll post up some more information about the time to aim for and marathon pacing groups, the Long Slow Run, taking water and gels while running, injuries and medical advice, strides/intervals/fartleks, racing during marathon training, where to run - running outdoors/on a treadmill/different surfaces/at different times during the day/group training sessions, stretching and cross-training, race rehearsals, and basically anything else I can think of or you can ask … and then as we get closer to the day I’ll talk you through the last week pre-race.




    Training plans

    Each week I’ll post up a suggested training schedule. This will be taken from the Hal Higdon Novice 1 training plan.

    The one change I’ll make to this schedule is to introduce speed sessions to one of the midweek runs. In the early weeks of the programme this will be a mix of different sessions (intervals, fartlek, etc - don’t worry, all will be explained) and later on it will be a Planned Marathon Pace (PMP) run.

    There are a lot of good points to the Higdon plan -
    • There is a steady buildup of miles through the weeks
    • There is an 18 mile run and a 20 mile run
    • The three back-to-back midweek runs will get you used to running on tired legs
    • There are step-back weeks to allow your body to recover strength
    • There is a defined taper period before the marathon

    You don’t have to follow this plan, there are a lot of alternatives out there. But whatever plan you follow (and I would urge you to follow some defined plan) make sure it follows the criteria above. The bad points of the Higdon plan are that its very one-paced, which is why I’m including speed sessions, and that it only has the one 20 mile run.

    For a beginner’s programme, the good points outweigh the bad points. If you complete the training plan, you will complete the marathon. (All of the novices from previous years who made it to the start line have finished the marathon) The plan is easy to follow, with no complicated sessions to learn about.

    (I’d be happy to take a look at whatever plan you’re thinking of following, and offer my not-very-expert advice)

    Two last points about the Higdon novice plan.
    You don’t have to run on the days he says - you might have other commitments, the weekends might be bad for you, whatever. But you should try to follow that pattern - three consecutive days of running, one or two rest days, a longer run, and then one or two rest days before you start the next week. And whatever plan you follow, you will need to do one long slow run (LSR) a week. Very soon that will become two, and then three hours for a single run, every week. If you can’t make that kind of training commitment then this is probably not a good year for you to run a marathon.

    It is an 18 week plan, and I will start posting it 18 weeks before the marathon. Some people like to start a week or two early, to build in a cushion for holidays, injuries, other races, and so on. That’s completely fine. You’ll want to be back on the regular schedule for the month of October, to follow the plan for tapering, but up until then its okay if you’re a week or two ahead.

    The first week of the training plan has four days of running - 3 miles on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, and 6 on Saturday. if that seems like a lot to you, you could build up with this Spring training planalso by Hal Higdon. It follows the same basic pattern of three back-to-back runs in midweek and a longer run on the weekend.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    Good man Ray, they'll be in safe hands.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭tHE vAGGABOND


    Excellent, Thanks Ray!

    Im sure all us marathon virgins have a lot of silly questions we have to start asking :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭fungirl1


    Hi Ray - thanks for organisining this I hope to be "dropping by" regularly over the next few minths. I am presently finishing wk 1 of HH novice HM plan - I used thi s last year to finish my first half and am planning to (hopefully!!) do clontarf HM, dublin race series and then DCM...
    I am a plodder (HM time was 2:18)...and wont be winnng any medals but really want to say I did the marathon.

    FG


  • Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Best of luck to all involved with this - had a lot of fun with it as a participant in 2009 and as mentor in 2010. Your first marathon is special, enjoy it! :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭tHE vAGGABOND


    I have been running around 9 or 10 months. I have done a number of races, up to the Connemara Half Marathon! My PB's are:
    5k - 22,47 [St Pat's 5k, April 20th]
    10k - 54.30 [Soon to be sub-50!:cool:], Cupid 9.8k! [Completed in 54.10 odd, so I add 20 seconds for short distance].
    Half - 1.56.37 [Connemara, April 10th]

    I dont *need* to walk, but choose to walk on long runs sometimes, when eating/drinking. I did not walk for the half, for example.

    I do somewhere between 20 and 30 miles a week, and have been for 6 or 7 months I guess. I dont cross train as much as I should, enjoying total rest days, but have been working them back in of late.

    I think I'm well able to complete it in sub-4 hours. That really is my ultimate goal. But I really want to survive the training and get around the course in one piece ;)

    Im single and no longer a work-a-holic, so basically a full time athlete :pac:

    For me, the marathon marks the ultimate transformation from 20 stone person I was this time last year, into fit and healthy person. I have also really gotten into this running lark, so its the logical next challenge.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    fungirl1 wrote: »
    wont be winnng any medals but really want to say I did the marathon.

    You may not win the race but there's still a big shiny medal at the end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭ger34


    Hi RayCun
    I have been following HH novice plan 1 for Kildare marathon in 3 weeks,20 mile lsr today, in 3 hrs and now begins taper.Have been injury free for whole of plan,so i would recommend this one for complete novices.My plan is to do DCM this year,so will be following your thread closely.Best of luck with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 261 ✭✭milosh


    I found last years thread around half way through the plan and loved following it and making the odd contribution. Even though we doing most of the training on our own, the thread gave the feeling that we were part of the team. Fair play to Ray for taking up the mantle from Rainbow Kirby. (hard act to follow!)

    I had been training for Barcelona but tore my calf in the early year. I'm not back running long - did the GIR and am up to 10 miles at the weekends. I was hoping to be in a position to run Cork but I know that is beyond me, so Dublin is my new marathon target.

    Last Year I ran it in 3:48 following HH Novice 1. It is guaranteed to get you around but I'm looking to get as close to sub 3:30 as possible this year so i'll need a program with plenty of speed and interval work (Doing lots of research on the various plans at the moment). I'll probably follow this thread though as i still feel like a novice in comparison to most of the posters on this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    I'm debating whether to or not to do the marathon this year. This would be my marathon debut. However, any training I do will be heavily disrupted by triathlons this summer. Therefore there would regularly be two weeks+ between my long runs all summer. Not too concerned about the other run sessions required as I'll be doing regular shorter faster training for and in the Tri's. Main concern, which is holding me back, is building these long runs. At the moment my long slow runs are around the half marathon distance, which I can do easily in 1:40 (been doing this weekly since November). However, building up from 13/14 miles to 20/22 is something I'm not that confident of being able to do as I wont be able to stick to any of the standard training plans. I don't want my first attempt at the distance to be on the back of inadequate preparation. I want to make sure I can do myself justice on the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭Fazz


    @betterthanhoyte

    I'm in a similar boat, however I am doing the Dublin Half (first one) in Sept and then my first marathon in Oct DCM.

    I train for triathlons too and have only recently got up to half marathon distance in my lsr. I plan on increasing this slowly but also to finish Tri season a few weeks before my half and then nothing till marathon 5 weeks after.
    I've set myself ambitious time targets especially as they are my first ones but it helps focus my training.
    You're ahead of me in that you have been doing halfs since Oct/Nov, so I don't see why you can't do it.
    I do a lsr each week and will be slowly adding distance to it. Race season will interrupt it but if planned right should still allow room for lsr every 10 days anyway?

    I've got 8-9 tri's planned before the half and just need to stay injury free to see all go to plan.

    If anything the Tri season will aid the training in my view.

    I say go for it... I am anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭LaHaine


    Fair play Ray. im looking forward to following this. Ive read previous years and its always a mine of information.

    Hoping to run the Dublin marathon in under 4 hours. The only concern I would have is that Im also doing Gaelforce West. Just wondering will the bike training have a detrimental effect on my running. I suppose its up to me to make sure that I get the balance right and get the miles in!

    Quick question if you dont mind?

    Whats the fastest marathon time you would expect from following the Hal Higdon novice plan? Roughly?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    LaHaine wrote: »
    Just wondering will the bike training have a detrimental effect on my running. I suppose its up to me to make sure that I get the balance right and get the miles in!

    Unless you go nuts then cycling should be of help to you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4 kennjedy


    I'll join in for this, cheers


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    LaHaine wrote: »
    Just wondering will the bike training have a detrimental effect on my running. I suppose its up to me to make sure that I get the balance right and get the miles in!

    Depends how much bike training you do. You can use cycles in the place of recovery runs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    Depends how much bike training you do. You can use cycles in the place of recovery runs.

    Does a 5 hour bike spin count as a recovery? This is my problem also. While trying to build for the marathon, I'll also have to be building my bike and swim for a half ironman in September.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    Does a 5 hour bike spin count as a recovery? This is my problem also. While trying to build for the marathon, I'll also have to be building my bike and swim for a half ironman in September.

    Nope!

    Maybe you're taking on a bit much? The marathon requires serious preparation, if you don't give it the respect it deserves, you could be in real trouble on race day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    (Bear in mind that I have no multisport experience)

    Cycling will help with your general aerobic fitness, and in some ways it's a good fit with running because there is no impact stress on your legs. So you could swap out some of your runs for cycling. But there's no substitute for the Long Slow Runs - you need to make room in your training programme to build those LSRs up slowly in the months leading up to the marathon. If you're going to skip some weeks because of other events, or because you need to get in a long cycle or swim, you'll need to start the buildup even earlier. This thread will (I hope) still be useful for the marathon-specific information, but your schedule will be very different.

    LaHaine - I wouldn't say there's a limit to how fast you can go with the Higdon Novice plan, but better runners will want more of a mix of training than is provided by the Higdon plan. If you're aiming for under 3.45 you'll probably want a different plan. Even if you're aiming for a slower time, if you are familiar with the ideas of VO2 max or LT training you might want to follow a plan that incorporates those ideas. The Higdon plan is easy to use, but it isn't the most challenging.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Does a 5 hour bike spin count as a recovery? This is my problem also. While trying to build for the marathon, I'll also have to be building my bike and swim for a half ironman in September.

    Would you be doing a 5 hour spin every weekend? Wouldn't do that much bike training myself so wouldn't really know how to juggle that with marathone training, would be more something for an experienced triathlete to answer I suppose. You'll never be able to follow a full marathon training programme while doing that sort of bike work though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭BrokenMan


    Fair play for taking this on Ray, you got a hard act to follow.

    Last year's thread was great, while I was following a slightly different plan, and didn't contribute an awful lot it was great to know that others were going through the same pain and worries that I was.

    Best of luck to everyone tackling their first marathon this year, it is an experience never to be forgotten.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    mrslow wrote: »
    Nope!

    Maybe you're taking on a bit much? The marathon requires serious preparation, if you don't give it the respect it deserves, you could be in real trouble on race day.

    I'm well aware of this, hence my hesitation about going ahead with this at all. I am already taking on a lot this year, and I'm very concious of trying not to wear myself, out, and also making sure that I am fully prepared on the day should I run the marathon.
    Would you be doing a 5 hour spin every weekend? Wouldn't do that much bike training myself so wouldn't really know how to juggle that with marathone training, would be more something for an experienced triathlete to answer I suppose. You'll never be able to follow a full marathon training programme while doing that sort of bike work though.

    I wouldn't be doing 5 hours every weekend, but at least 3. The 5 hours would be more of a once a month thing, or if the weather is amazing!!
    RayCun wrote: »
    But there's no substitute for the Long Slow Runs - you need to make room in your training programme to build those LSRs up slowly in the months leading up to the marathon. If you're going to skip some weeks because of other events, or because you need to get in a long cycle or swim, you'll need to start the buildup even earlier. This thread will (I hope) still be useful for the marathon-specific information, but your schedule will be very different.

    Oh, i know that above all I would need to be building the LSRs, and I'd want to start bloody soon as I will miss plently of weeks. My longest run to-date has been 13.5 miles (two weeks ago), so starting this week i'm going to have to start building slowly on that when I can. I'm not going to be able to follow the training plan here, or any other marathon specific plan. To achieve what I have set as my target time it looks like I would have to follow a plan which incolved 5/6 runs a week, which won't be possible, but 3/4 runs and my swimming and cycling and I should be in decent shape come the day. I see from the website that you can register up to 5th October, so I'll give it a few months, see how the LSRs are building, see what kind of condition I am in towards the end of the season, and make a decision then.

    As you say, this thread isn't aimed at people like me, and I seem to have hijacked it a little. As I won't be able to follow the plan outlined here and I'm still unsure whether or not to run the marathon, I'll "un-hijack" the thread, and wish everyone who takes part the best of luck in their training. I will keep an eye on the thread tho, and probably get caught up in the excitement of it all, in which case I'll see you all in October!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭Concerned2


    RayCun wrote: »
    • Have you raced before? If so what are your PBs? (Date and distance please!)
    • Do you still need to take walk breaks in your training?
    • How much training do you currently do? Distances, how many days a week, cross training - whatever you think is relevant
    • What do you want to achieve? Dream finishing time and realistic finishing time?
    • How many days a week can you train?
    • Why are you running this marathon?

    Hi Ray, thanks for putting up this thread. Even though I wasn't doing a marathon last year I found last years novices thread very interesting.

    My pb's are 5k - 20:56 from Nov 2010
    8k - 37:30 from Aug 2008
    10k - 44:57 from Apr 2011
    10m - 1:15:25 from Mar 2011
    1/2 Marathon - Tell you after the great limerick run next weekend !

    I never walk during training runs.

    I currently avg around 28 miles/week training. Not quite sure what kind of base I have though as last sept & Oct I clocked up decent mileage but from then till the end of Feb my training was absolute rubbish. I could train 7 days a week if I wanted ! The training plan I'll be following (Marathon training for competitive beginners from www.runningplanet.com) has 6 runs a week , any week I'm feeling good I'll do all 6 sessions , on the not so good weeks I'll try to complete 5 sessions. I may do a small bit of swimming to get in a bit of extra stretching .

    Absolute dream finishing time would be 3:30 (the running calculators predict better than this based off my 5k time LOL) , goal time is really 3:45 . If nothing major goes wrong on the day I'm confident of getting under 4 hours anyway.

    There are a couple of reasons why I'm doing the marathon. I think the endurance I'll gain from training for the marathon will make me much quicker over the shorter distances. 2 of my uncles were decent marathon runners & from listening to their stories of races when I was small I always had it in my head that I would do a marathon. Also just to prove to myself that I can actually complete 1 , personally if I was to pick the 1 factor most important for someone to train & complete a marathon it would be injury resilience which is something I definitely do not have so I'll be beating the odds if I manage to complete the marathon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    Concerned2 wrote: »
    The training plan I'll be following (Marathon training for competitive beginners from www.runningplanet.com) has 6 runs a week , any week I'm feeling good I'll do all 6 sessions , on the not so good weeks I'll try to complete 5 sessions. I may do a small bit of swimming to get in a bit of extra stretching

    You've got the speed to do 3:30, I had a quick look at the sample plan for 3:40 and it looks pretty intense given your injury worries. Have you looked at P&D?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭LaHaine


    Another question if you guys dont mind (im full of them). Is there any way to roughly calculate what your ideal bodyweight should be for long distance running?

    Im about 5'9 and around 82kg at the moment. Im more of a broad build than thin but I feel like I definitely need to lose some more weight.

    Ive googled bits and pieces but I havent come up with much useful info.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    LaHaine wrote: »
    Another question if you guys dont mind (im full of them). Is there any way to roughly calculate what your ideal bodyweight should be for long distance running?

    Im about 5'9 and around 82kg at the moment. Im more of a broad build than thin but I feel like I definitely need to lose some more weight.

    Ive googled bits and pieces but I havent come up with much useful info.

    You'll shed a lot of excess body fat in training, don't worry about that!

    If you start dieting going into marathon training you'll end up wrecked. Eat a balanced diet pay attention to your carbs/protein and lots of fruit and veg. You'll burn somewhere between 100 and 140 calories for every mile, make sure the calories you're replacing them with are quality ones and not 'empty' calories like junk food.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    LaHaine wrote: »
    Another question if you guys dont mind (im full of them). Is there any way to roughly calculate what your ideal bodyweight should be for long distance running?

    No, first because bodyweight doesn't capture your muscle/fat ratio, and second because runners will have an uneven distribution of muscle, with more in the legs and less upper body strength.

    Anyway, I don't think you're going to get near your ideal bodyweight. Take a look at some photos of elite runners - those guys are skinny. Just concentrate on cutting the junk out of your diet and eating healthily. You shouldn't need to reduce your calorie intake at all beyond that, the weight will just come off naturally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    RayCun wrote: »
    Just concentrate on cutting the junk out of your diet and eating healthily. You shouldn't need to reduce your calorie intake at all beyond that, the weight will just come off naturally.

    Is that not what I said? :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    mrslow wrote: »
    Is that not what I said? :P

    I'm sure your post had a mistake somewhere :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,554 ✭✭✭Mr Slow


    RayCun wrote: »
    I'm sure your post had a mistake somewhere :D

    eck05.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭BrokenMan


    mrslow wrote: »
    You've got the speed to do 3:30, I had a quick look at the sample plan for 3:40 and it looks pretty intense given your injury worries. Have you looked at P&D?

    Got to say I agree with mr.notso.slow that is a pretty intense program for someone with injury worries. I wouldn't want to try it myself thats for sure and I'm pretty injury resilient. Getting through it injury free will set yuo up brilliantly for the race but it could also cause a flare up of the ITB.

    Would you consider switching to a slightly less intense schedule which may well get you to the start line injury free. You have the base speed for a 3:30 there's no doubt about that. But in order to run it you have to get to the start line.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    I wouldn't be doing 5 hours every weekend, but at least 3. The 5 hours would be more of a once a month thing, or if the weather is amazing!!

    Oh, i know that above all I would need to be building the LSRs, and I'd want to start bloody soon as I will miss plently of weeks. My longest run to-date has been 13.5 miles (two weeks ago), so starting this week i'm going to have to start building slowly on that when I can. I'm not going to be able to follow the training plan here, or any other marathon specific plan. To achieve what I have set as my target time it looks like I would have to follow a plan which incolved 5/6 runs a week, which won't be possible, but 3/4 runs and my swimming and cycling and I should be in decent shape come the day. I see from the website that you can register up to 5th October, so I'll give it a few months, see how the LSRs are building, see what kind of condition I am in towards the end of the season, and make a decision then.

    As you say, this thread isn't aimed at people like me, and I seem to have hijacked it a little. As I won't be able to follow the plan outlined here and I'm still unsure whether or not to run the marathon, I'll "un-hijack" the thread, and wish everyone who takes part the best of luck in their training. I will keep an eye on the thread tho, and probably get caught up in the excitement of it all, in which case I'll see you all in October!!

    Well the bike work will help the running, cycling and running use similar muscle groups and sure triathletes do it all the time...

    I don't see any reason not to take part in this thread though just because you won't be following the exact same plan as other posters. You'll get a lot of good guidance and advice on here and you'll be able to provide useful information to others.


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