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Irish Runner

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    RayCun wrote: »
    Sure.
    I completely agree that getting lots of people to go out jogging, and kids to sign up for fun runs like this, is only a start. By itself, it won't produce any Olympians.
    But it's a good start.

    1000 kids in one location would be a good place to showcase what the athletics world has to offer. Not sure if the AI Development Team will be there but would be a good idea.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    thirtyfoot wrote: »
    1000 kids in one location would be a good place to showcase what the athletics world has to offer. Not sure if the AI Development Team will be there but would be a good idea.
    Would be nice to have some other races on the day for them to watch, something like the great north run, with some of our elites on show.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,605 ✭✭✭ultrapercy


    The main point for me is not the cover story. The lady featured could be considered inspirational or not depending on your point of view. Either way fair dues to her and continued improvement. My main problem with IR is the direction its taking especialy since AAI started having an imput. Its starting to look like Runners World which has a formulaic monthly template. This issue of IR didnt address or even mention the Martin Fagan drug story. Surely a running magazine should deal with running stories as a priority. But that is only my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,623 ✭✭✭dna_leri


    shels4ever wrote: »
    Would be nice to have some other races on the day for them to watch, something like the great north run, with some of our elites on show.

    Eh, the national 10K is on that day aka the GReat Ireland Run, so some of our elites will be on show along with some of the world's best.
    AMAZING! Over 1,000 children from ages 5-15 have already entered the SPAR Junior and Mini Great Ireland Runs! The future of athletics in Ireland is safe!!
    Originally Posted by thirtyfoot viewpost.gif
    That is good news from a recreational running and lifestyle perspective.

    From an (elite) athletics perspective (as that perspective does matter to some) I would love to see these kids become part of a LTAD programme that is geared toward towards fulfillment of competitive athletic goals, ie Little Athletics etc. Lets hope some come across to competitive athletics.

    I think you will find that many of these kids are already club members and have progressed through the LTAD programme. Have a look at last year's junior run results and you will see familar names from juvenile nationals and maybe a few new ones.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    dna_leri wrote: »
    Eh, the national 10K is on that day aka the GReat Ireland Run, so some of our elites will be on show along with some of the world's best.
    National road 10k ;). The national 10k is on the track :).
    Yep apart from that there is the option to put on extra events ala the great north run, they put on a 2mile and some sprint events around the area the day before, think they also have a shot put in the city center. Seems to go down very well.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    thirtyfoot wrote: »
    You are making my point for me. If you present a role model who will appeal to this mass you speak of (those that don't care about elite athletics, ie joggers aged 25+), how will this translate to inspiring people who may aspire to winning medals? They are two different audiences. So, Hannah Nolan will appeal mainly to the mass you speak of while she won't appeal to those aspiring for medals. Thats the point that some of us have been trying to make.

    I am not saying there shouldn't be a body of runners who don't care about elite athletics so I presume you aren't saying there shouldn't be a body of athletics people who don't care about the recreational runner.

    I take your point, but I think we're arguing two separate things. You're totally right about the two different groups- the group aspiring for medals is far far smaller than the group of recreational, couldn't-care-less-about-medals, runners.

    The problem is that you DO seem to care about these recreational runners- they irritate you with their uncompetitive ways and I'll guess that you feel they lower the standing of your sport in other people's eyes. Way back 0407....said that most of the people on the start line of the marathon wouldn't know the distance of an athletics track. So what? Why is this in any way a problem. Far far more important in my opinion that there's 10000 people out there doing it, being active, making running a normal thing to do, than worry about its effect on the precious 0.0001% of top performers in a minority sport.

    And in the context of the Irish Runner- nothing about its name or previous issues suggests that it should solely concentrate on this 0.0001%. Maybe they'd be better off representing the reality of running in Ireland today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    MrCreosote wrote: »
    The problem is that you DO seem to care about these recreational runners- they irritate you with their uncompetitive ways and I'll guess that you feel they lower the standing of your sport in other people's eyes. .

    Wrong there, where do you get that from? What irritates me is the concept that celebrating recreational running will inspire and promote competitive athletics, a view expressed by some here. Celebrate it, its great and gets people running and active but not as a means of promoting competitive sport.
    MrCreosote wrote: »
    And in the context of the Irish Runner- nothing about its name or previous issues suggests that it should solely concentrate on this 0.0001%. Maybe they'd be better off representing the reality of running in Ireland today.

    There are 20,000 kids part of this 0.0001% in Ireland. There are say 6,000 adults part of this % (half of the 12,000 adult who are members of clubs aspire to win medals, could be more actually). Thats 26,000 people who are into competitive athletics. They want to win or see their athletes win medals relative to their ability. From a club race to a county or provincial or national or european or world or Olympic championships and not merely to be fit or lose some weights. My maths suggest, by your reckoning, there are 26 billion (yes billion) people in Ireland (yes, just Ireland) who run but aren't into the competitive side of things.

    Even if you suggested 1% instead of 0.0001%, that would be 2.6 million runners/joggers/recreational runner [choose which is the least offensive term] in Ireland.

    What I am trying to say is there are more people into competitive athletics in Ireland than you think, over 30,000 club members.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    thirtyfoot wrote: »



    There are 20,000 kids part of this 0.0001% in Ireland. There are say 6,000 adults part of this % (half of the 12,000 adult who are members of clubs aspire to win medals, could be more actually). Thats 26,000 people who are into competitive athletics. They want to win or see their athletes win medals relative to their ability. From a club race to a county or provincial or national or european or world or Olympic championships and not merely to be fit or lose some weights. My maths suggest, by your reckoning, there are 26 billion (yes billion) people in Ireland (yes, just Ireland) who run but aren't into the competitive side of things.

    Even if you suggested 1% instead of 0.0001%, that would be 2.6 million runners/joggers/recreational runner [choose which is the least offensive term] in Ireland.

    What I am trying to say is there are more people into competitive athletics in Ireland than you think, over 30,000 club members.

    I'm talking about elites- olympic medallists- as you have been up to now. And we've had, what, 3 medallists in t&f in the last 75 years. That's 3 in say 10 million- or 0.00003%- lower than my numbers above.

    Now if you want to talk about club runners- they're still just recreational runners, even if taking part in races. It's still just a hobby for them, they might be faster but they're in no way "elite". No difference to average joe back-of-the-pack runner really, even if they might take it a little more seriously.

    The attitude that's coming through from some posters is that it's somehow more worthy being a serious/competitive/club runner than a recreational one. And I'm saying it's not- both (hopefully) run for enjoyment mainly- there are only professional/elite runners and everyone else is a fun-runner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    MrCreosote wrote: »

    Now if you want to talk about club runners- they're still just recreational runners, even if taking part in races. It's still just a hobby for them, they might be faster but they're in no way "elite". No difference to average joe back-of-the-pack runner really, even if they might take it a little more seriously.

    The attitude that's coming through from some posters is that it's somehow more worthy being a serious/competitive/club runner than a recreational one. And I'm saying it's not- both (hopefully) run for enjoyment mainly- there are only professional/elite runners and everyone else is a fun-runner.

    Its not as black and white as that. There would be no elite athletes if everybody had that attitude. Elite athletes arent born they're made, so called fun runners can become elite athletes, its about choosing to do so. If you wanna be a fun runner grand, nothing wrong with that, but its a choice you made but you could also make a choice to strive toawards an elite standard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭SeanKenny


    MrCreosote wrote: »
    I'm talking about elites- olympic medallists- as you have been up to now. And we've had, what, 3 medallists in t&f in the last 75 years. That's 3 in say 10 million- or 0.00003%- lower than my numbers above.

    Now if you want to talk about club runners- they're still just recreational runners, even if taking part in races. It's still just a hobby for them, they might be faster but they're in no way "elite". No difference to average joe back-of-the-pack runner really, even if they might take it a little more seriously.

    The attitude that's coming through from some posters is that it's somehow more worthy being a serious/competitive/club runner than a recreational one. And I'm saying it's not- both (hopefully) run for enjoyment mainly- there are only professional/elite runners and everyone else is a fun-runner.

    Talking about the percentage of peple who win olympic medals is nonsense really. It has no relevance.

    The point of it is that you cannot categorise it as simply, international class athletes/olympic contenders and label everybody else as fun runners who don't care about elite athletics. Thirtyfoot made this point very well earlier too.

    As someone who spent my 20's and early thirties as a mid pack club runner I would strongly disagree with you and here is an example why.
    I (and hundreds like me around the country) tried to be competitive and improve the standard of local domestic races. Several up and coming juveniles and juniors would complete their long runs and tempo's with us average club runners. At times we adjusted sessions to accomodate these lads and help develop them and some went on to be successful nationally and one obtained a scholarship to the USA. This story is not unique - it happens in many well structured clubs around the country.

    No one in my group of training partners ever fooled ourselves that we were anything close to elite but we were all interested in being competitive (sub 27mins 30 for 5 miles) and were interested in the elite aspect of the sport. However I think that it was more than fun running. For fun, we went to Pairc Ui Chaoimh to watch a game!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    What I'm saying is there are two groups:

    Group 1- You run for money- then you're a professional. It's your job. These tend to be the elite athletes.

    Group 2- You don't run for money. You run for enjoyment/fun. You're a fun runner. Dress it up however you like, but that's what you are. This is not to say you can't be fast or get enjoyment from winning races. But you're still a fun runner.

    My own opinion is that the more of group 2 you have in a society, at all levels, the more likely you are to get people getting into group 1. Because of competition, more clubs, healthier clubs and especially because running is seen as a normal thing to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭SeanKenny


    MrCreosote wrote: »
    What I'm saying is there are two groups:

    Group 1- You run for money- then you're a professional. It's your job. These tend to be the elite athletes.

    Group 2- You don't run for money. You run for enjoyment/fun. You're a fun runner. Dress it up however you like, but that's what you are. This is not to say you can't be fast or get enjoyment from winning races. But you're still a fun runner.

    My own opinion is that the more of group 2 you have in a society, at all levels, the more likely you are to get people getting into group 1. Because of competition, more clubs, healthier clubs and especially because running is seen as a normal thing to do.

    Group 2 is a far more varied group than group one and I think it is far too simplistic to categorise them as a homogeneous group. For example you are calling a 14 mins 25 5000m runner a fun runner just like the 15 stone beer swilling 30-35 minute performer. There are also a huge number in between. Both run for hugely different reasons - it is not all just for fun. It is simply innaccurate to state otherwise.

    I love to see all levels and standards in races. However, as a sport we need to see what the long term benefit can be. There is a running boom now that accompanies the current economic climate. What can be done to tap into this and look at the future of the sport? For me that is the real issue. How can the next Mad Len be identified? Is he running already? Has he got a good coach?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    Absolutely the second group is totally heterogenous. The ways they enjoy it might be different- the back of pack runner might be happy to complete the distance, the middle packer a time and at the front maybe a trophy. But there's no material gain so it's still only for enjoyment for all the different groups.

    As for the elites- get the numbers in, make it inclusive and have a decent and experienced high performance structure in place to help them once they identify themselves. The natural competitiveness that most people have means the fastest runners will soon identify themselves. But only if they try it first of course- which is why an inclusive rather than an elitist attitude is the way forward.

    Like the old pyramid analogy- the wider the base (numbers of nonelite runners), the higher the peak (chances of finding a world challenging elite).


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    SeanKenny wrote: »
    Group 2 is a far more varied group than group one and I think it is far too simplistic to categorise them as a homogeneous group. For example you are calling a 14 mins 25 5000m runner a fun runner just like the 15 stone beer swilling 30-35 minute performer. There are also a huge number in between. Both run for hugely different reasons - it is not all just for fun. It is simply innaccurate to state otherwise.

    I love to see all levels and standards in races. However, as a sport we need to see what the long term benefit can be. There is a running boom now that accompanies the current economic climate. What can be done to tap into this and look at the future of the sport? For me that is the real issue. How can the next Mad Len be identified? Is he running already? Has he got a good coach?

    Yeah I think this is the issue. How do you motivate people to aspire to reach the next level, to aim high and not be content to just show up or only use running for weight management.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4 HannahSpanner


    I think getting "normal" people running, even if they are "fun" runners who might not have ever considered running before is still very important. If an adult takes up running - regardless of whether they win or not, back of the pack, middle of the pack whatever. Even if they are not "competitive" in the sense that they are going to win a spot in the top 3 they will still undoubtedly be competitive with themselves. Achieving a faster time, or a longer distance than before.

    Who's to say that these people's interest in a sport won't encourage them to enroll their kids in running clubs? Who's to say their child won't become the next "elite" athlete just because they aren't.

    I used to love watching Athletics when I was younger, but I never joined or started until last year. Believe me I wish I had but I didn't - maybe I never believed I could be good enough since they were heroes and I was just a mere mortal.

    Yes my story may appeal to those who are overweight - but who's to say one of those overweight people may actually be a runner and never knew it? Or that their child might then go on to become a runner? Surely the more people you can get into the sport the more chance you are at finding that "Diamond in the rough"? My story may not inspire or "appeal" to an Elite athlete to go on a win a race, but maybe they will read it and actually be pleased that their sport is being represented across the board.

    Yes I hope that my story will encourage people to lose weight and get fit - and continue running. But I also hope that by getting people out and enjoying the sport that this will in turn lead to other, younger runners (i.e. their children) becoming involved with the sport. Surely this is certainly promoting competitive sport? The more people you are reaching the more chance you are of finding your next big star? The bigger net you cast the more fish you are going to catch....and you may even catch a big one - but how do you know if you make the assumption that all people who have had weight issues or started running to aid weight loss will not ever become anything or do anything for the sport. At the end of the day, regardless of the reason Why they started running - they would not continue if they didn't enjoy it. I started running, I enjoyed it, I continued, I joined a club and the last 3 races I have run in I have placed 2nd and 3rd against club runners who have been running for years. This is not just a way of "maintaining" my weight anymore and while I may never be an Elite athlete, maybe my children will, maybe somebody else's child will.

    Even Elite athletes have to start somewhere. No I'm not an Elite athlete, but what is wrong with that? What is so wrong with one of the more normal people being represented on the front of a magazine? Nobody would be having this conversation if it was an elite athlete on the front cover. Elite athletes feature on the front covers all the time and just this once for a change the every day recreational runner has been represented. Maybe I'll inspire people, maybe I won't. Maybe the next Elite front cover will inspire people - and maybe they won't. The problem is that whoever is represented there are going to people who are not interested. You cannot appeal to ALL people ALL of the time, that is just the way the world is. I may have only been running a year but I always felt a sense of togetherness and solidarity amongst fellow runners no matter what their abilities......now I'm starting to wonder if I was just being terribly naive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    tunguska wrote: »
    Yeah I think this is the issue. How do you motivate people to aspire to reach the next level, to aim high and not be content to just show up or only use running for weight management.

    I think we all agree there's a pyramid. At the bottom are the people who don't care about times, who only race once a year, if that, and are mainly concerned about weight management or some basic level of activity.
    At the top are international athletes.
    In between - people like you, people like me, people like Hannah. Up one level in the pyramid, people who race more often, and want to improve their times. Up another level, people who join a club to train better. Up another level, people who compete for their club, people who can push the international athletes in races and training. (and you can subdivide it more if you like)
    The pyramid gets narrower as you go up. Lots of joggers don't care about times. Lots of people who do, won't join a club. Most of those who do aren't going to be fast enough to even train with a really good runner.

    There's still work to be done in moving people up the pyramid, but having a large base at least gives you people to work with.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    The other thing is, at which level of the pyramid do you concentrate your efforts? The AAI has a limited amount of resources. I don't think anyone thinks they should put any time into getting people to start jogging - if anything that's a public health thing, or for things like Operation Transformation.
    But how much work, if any, should be put into getting people into clubs? Because that's work that would be taken away from training coaches, or elite development.


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