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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    dee2dee wrote: »
    Doesn't look like it's happened yet.....

    http://www.corkman.ie/news/mallow-relief-road-must-not-slip-off-agenda-3022010.html

    Mallow relief road must not slip off agenda

    Thursday February 16 2012

    PRIORITY must be given to the construction of a northern relief road around Mallow given that the proposed M20 Cork – Limerick road is likely to be shelved.

    That's the view of Mallow Town Mayor Dan Joe Fitzgerald, who said it was incumbent on Mallow Town Council to ensure that the issue is not allowed to "slip off the agenda".
    .
    Very relevant to the preservation of route corridors link you posted earlier.
    It was due to zoning of potential corridors turbo boosting land prices that the relief road didnt get built in the first place.
    heres the thread i started in 2008 highlighting this madness
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055249880

    from the independent at the time:
    The land in question was originally valued at €14.6m in 2005 but after Cork County Council re-zoned the land, it shot up in price to more than €50m by the end of 2007 after An Bord Pleanala had given the green light for a compulsory purchase order to go ahead, he said.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    spacetweek wrote: »
    (OT) Telecoms, though - you know how fast they change. Would you not be worried such a network would be obsolete in 10 years?

    As others have said, Fibre is pretty much the ultimate solution in telecoms and is very future proof.

    After all fibre uses light and nothing travels faster then the speed of light. So unless someone develops faster then light communications (Star Trek stuff like Quantum Physics), then nothing will surpass fibre.

    Over time you can upgrade the gear at both ends of the fibre cable, to allow it to use a broader spectrum of light to give you more bandwidth, but you don't have to replace the cable, which is the part that costs the most (digging the whole to lay new cable makes up about 70% of the cost).
    Skopzz wrote: »
    Fiber can be made of different polymers which often determines its lifespan.

    True, but even the existing cable is good for at least 50 years (if not more) and once you have fibre in place, you can relatively easily replace it by using the old cable to pull through the new cable.

    This is much, much cheaper then the initial cost of laying the first cable, which is mostly (70%) the cost of digging the ducts.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,917 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Very relevant to the preservation of route corridors link you posted earlier.
    It was due to zoning of potential corridors turbo boosting land prices that the relief road didnt get built in the first place.
    heres the thread i started in 2008 highlighting this madness
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055249880

    from the independent at the time:
    Boom prices - I wonder what it would be worth now. The value inflation wasn't just because of the rezoning.

    This talk of shelving/deferring the M20 is a bit pointless, though. Even if the road was still on the agenda, it wouldn't be starting for years anyway. My 2c is that nothing further will happen until the capital spending review in 2015, at which point the M20 will be reactivated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    spacetweek wrote: »
    This talk of shelving/deferring the M20 is a bit pointless, though. Even if the road was still on the agenda, it wouldn't be starting for years anyway. My 2c is that nothing further will happen until the capital spending review in 2015, at which point the M20 will be reactivated.

    It should also be pointed out that this is behind the N11/NX upgrade, M17/18, New Ross & GCOB all of which appear on the NRAs second PPP scheme.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    Oh look Ma, another thread derailed with talk about economics!!

    Derailed by talk of fibre it seems :D!

    But how can we discuss the prospects of starting a project costing hundreds of millions - when nearly all planned projects across the country have now been cancelled because of lack of money?

    It's good to keep these threads just a tiny bit grounded in reality, however unpleasent reality may be :cool:


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    bk wrote: »

    After all fibre uses light and nothing travels faster then the speed of light.

    What about them neutrinos in Switzerland? ;)


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,349 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Wild Bill wrote: »
    What about them neutrinos in Switzerland? ;)

    I know, I was actually thinking that when I posted the comment!! :D


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I suspect Cork Mallow will be built before New Ross...somehow.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Cork Mallow being built first would need a head to roll, if any of them still are there, for thinking that the climbing lanes and the 2+1 pilot were a good idea.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    MYOB wrote: »
    Cork Mallow being built first would need a head to roll, if any of them still are there, for thinking that the climbing lanes and the 2+1 pilot were a good idea.

    Then let the heads roll! :mad:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,845 ✭✭✭trellheim


    Ballybeg incident again today. Huge tailbacks. and stop and go, by all account.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    MYOB wrote: »
    Cork Mallow being built first would need a head to roll, if any of them still are there, for thinking that the climbing lanes and the 2+1 pilot were a good idea.

    the 2+1 idea was truly awful and I'll be glad to see the back of it (might live that long perhaps!)

    As it is , I've found a back road which avoids it and Rathduff and Mallow and is quicker by about 5 -10 minutes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭pigtown


    I've never been on a 2 + 1 road. What's so wrrong with them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    you invaribly get stuck behind a Nissan Micra doing 65km/h on the 1 lane section and he invaribly puts his foot down on the two lane section....

    The one saving grace is they have cut accidents a lot and saved lives, but of course a 2+2 would have done that also and cost very little extra.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    pigtown wrote: »
    I've never been on a 2 + 1 road. What's so wrrong with them?

    You also get lane hoggers who overtake the first car and stay in the overtaking lane. This means all traffic gets stuck behind that guy and before you know it the 2 lanes get cut back down to 1 and everyone is in the same boat as before. Stuck behind a Sunday Driver.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,063 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    corktina wrote: »
    The one saving grace is they have cut accidents a lot and saved lives, but of course a 2+2 would have done that also and cost very little extra.

    The 2+1 at Piltown on the N24 has had more deaths on it than the old road it replaced has - they're really very unsafe with the traffic levels we thought to try them on.

    They're generally used in Scandinavia on extremely low traffic roads over huge distances to provide safe overtaking, here they end up providing rush-zones for overtaking attempts on medium to high traffic roads over short distances.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    thats the problem with the N20 section, the "2" sections are both 1 km long, not long enough. But it has stopped the rear-end accidents which used to be caused when people were turning right.

    I wonder were the crash barriers really necessary given the road is no different to a normal road with an overtaking lane, examples of which are on that very road? (Several sections of the crash barrier have been damaged by accidents and MONTHS later are still not repaired)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭cjpm


    A woman in her 20s has died after the car she was driving was in collision with a truck on the Cork to Mallow road this morning.

    The incident happened at Rathduff at around 7.45am.

    The road remains closed pending a technical examination and motorists are advised to drive with care in the area as road conditions are poor.



    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/young-woman-killed-in-crash-on-cork-mallow-road-548910.html#ixzz1t2TCHLkG


    Incident happened at the junction next to the Picnic area, about 2 miles south of Rathduff, at about 7:20.

    How many more people must die before this road is upgraded? There is blood on the hands of the NRA and the politicians in Cork North Central, Cork East and Limerick.


    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    ^^^^Agree 100%.Incompetant fools in charge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭black47


    cjpm wrote: »
    A woman in her 20s has died after the car she was driving was in collision with a truck on the Cork to Mallow road this morning.

    The incident happened at Rathduff at around 7.45am.

    The road remains closed pending a technical examination and motorists are advised to drive with care in the area as road conditions are poor.



    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/young-woman-killed-in-crash-on-cork-mallow-road-548910.html#ixzz1t2TCHLkG

    Incident happened at the junction next to the Picnic area, about 2 miles south of Rathduff, at about 7:20.

    How many more people must die before this road is upgraded? There is blood on the hands of the NRA and the politicians in Cork North Central, Cork East and Limerick.


    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:

    Totally agree with you. The M20 has alway been the poor relation when it comes to quality of national primary routes. No works have taken place since the opening of the Croom bypass in 2001 AFAIK. This is despite a period of major economic growth until 2007.

    God bless that poor lady but she won't be the last. The ABP application for the upgrade has been withdrawn so it will be back to square one again when it is re-lodged. I don't know why the route can't be split up into a number of different projects and local bypasses so that something could get moving.

    Interesting how the Longford bypass and Ballaghadreen on the N5 to Mayo are in or heading to construction. Enda and Michael Ring feathering their own nest. We also have the Mayo cycling greenway being extended from Westport out to the base of Croagh Patrick while in the meantime people are dying on the roads in other parts of the country. With all due respect better roads should come before cycling paths in my opinion.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭cjpm


    black47 wrote: »
    Totally agree with you. The M20 has alway been the poor relation when it comes to quality of national primary routes.

    And to think that it links the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in the Republic.....

    When the rest of the orbital routes out of Dublin were being built during the Celtic Tiger they were all sections of about 40km each (on average) e.g Galway to Ballinsloe, Limerick to Nenagh etc etc. There must have been about 20 schemes in total. Cork to Limerick is 80km, that's just 2 schemes!! It could easily have been done too if the local politicians gave a toss.....

    I'm really annoyed this morning and a bit shocked too... When I passed the scene of the crash only one ambulance had arrived and the paramedics had taken the girl out of the car and were frantically doing CPR to her in the verge as we all crawled past in our cars.... God bless her soul :(

    The newspapers are saying that the weather conditions were a factor, that's a load of rubbish, there was only a light breeze and the road was damp, it wasn't even raining at the time. A typical morning in Ireland, not exactly an extreme weather event.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    cjpm wrote: »

    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:

    Which is why Dublin's roads are so bad? Which is why even the main roads in the city centre and suburbs were pockmarked and potholed to hell up until the Government finally put through some emergency funding to patch up some of the busiest roads in the country last Winter?

    Which is why the N81(sections of which would be as busy as Blarney - Cork on the N20) is on the longest of long fingers, and is also a very dangerous road?

    Perhaps you should look up the AADT of the road improvements/new orbital routes around Dublin and compare them with the N20 before playing the "Wah wah, Dublin gets all the good stuff" card.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Tragedy wrote: »
    cjpm wrote: »

    That road is a disgrace considering the volume of traffic on it. The 2 + 1 barrier section is hardly even maintained. Areas of missing poles with the wire sagging, other areas with bent poles that stick out into the 1m wide hard strip. It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin:mad::mad:

    Which is why Dublin's roads are so bad? Which is why even the main roads in the city centre and suburbs were pockmarked and potholed to hell up until the Government finally put through some emergency funding to patch up some of the busiest roads in the country last Winter?

    Which is why the N81(sections of which would be as busy as Blarney - Cork on the N20) is on the longest of long fingers, and is also a very dangerous road?

    Perhaps you should look up the AADT of the road improvements/new orbital routes around Dublin and compare them with the N20 before playing the "Wah wah, Dublin gets all the good stuff" card.

    All your whine's - poorly maintained urban roads, high AADT road improvements being long fingered etc. - Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    All your whine's - poorly maintained urban roads, high AADT road improvements being long fingered etc. - Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA.
    Where did I whine? I see someone complaining that Dublin gets it all and Cork gets nothing and pointed out the factual inaccuracies in his post(i.e. almost everything).

    Apology please?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Which is why Dublin's roads are so bad? Which is why even the main roads in the city centre and suburbs were pockmarked and potholed to hell up until the Government finally put through some emergency funding to patch up some of the busiest roads in the country last Winter?

    Which is why the N81(sections of which would be as busy as Blarney - Cork on the N20) is on the longest of long fingers, and is also a very dangerous road?

    Perhaps you should look up the AADT of the road improvements/new orbital routes around Dublin and compare them with the N20 before playing the "Wah wah, Dublin gets all the good stuff" card.

    I never said that all the roads in Dublin are great and I am well aware of the state of the N81. And I think you'll find that Irish roads in general are slowly becoming one big pot hole as the maintenance funds dry up.

    I was highlighting in particular the maintence (or lack there of) on the 2+1 section of the N20, a pilot scheme for a retrofit for the country and now has been forgotton about. I was driving past steel barrier poles, bent almost into the overtaking lane for weeks on end...( a very serious hazard) they were finally removed about a month ago.... and you've guessed it, no new poles and the wire is sagging almost on the ground!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Tragedy wrote: »
    All your whine's - poorly maintained urban roads, high AADT road improvements being long fingered etc. - Are as applicable to the Cork metropolitan area as they are to the GDA.
    Where did I whine? I see someone complaining that Dublin gets it all and Cork gets nothing and pointed out the factual inaccuracies in his post(i.e. almost everything).

    Apology please?

    Both you and the poster you replied to are whining in my book. They 'blamed Dublin', you cited how awful roads are in Dublin and how they're 'ignored', as if this is only applicable to one urban area. Which obviously isn't the case.

    So there'll be no apologies offered.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭cjpm


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Where did I whine? I see someone complaining that Dublin gets it all and Cork gets nothing and pointed out the factual inaccuracies in his post(i.e. almost everything).

    Apology please?


    Please multi quote my 3 posts and bold the factual inaccuracies. Thanks in advance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Both you and the poster you replied to are whining in my book. They 'blamed Dublin', you cited how awful roads are in Dublin and how they're 'ignored', as if this is only applicable to one urban area. Which obviously isn't the case.

    So there'll be no apologies offered.

    I equated the road he listed (N20) with the N81. I also stated that the roads in Dublin City itself are in generally not great repair, and the main routes around the city only received funding for emergency repairs last Winter - after he pretty clearly implied that Dublin gets priority for road funding.
    What about this is whining exactly? All I see is someone wanting to not admit they were wrong. Quelle surprise!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Both you and the poster you replied to are whining in my book. They 'blamed Dublin', you cited how awful roads are in Dublin and how they're 'ignored', as if this is only applicable to one urban area. Which obviously isn't the case.

    So there'll be no apologies offered.

    I equated the road he listed (N20) with the N81. I also stated that the roads in Dublin City itself are in generally not great repair, and the main routes around the city only received funding for emergency repairs last Winter - after he pretty clearly implied that Dublin gets priority for road funding.
    What about this is whining exactly? All I see is someone wanting to not admit they were wrong. Quelle surprise!

    So we're agreed then. You met one posters whine with a whine of your own.

    Glad we got this sorted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    cjpm wrote: »
    Please multi quote my 3 posts and bold the factual inaccuracies. Thanks in advance.
    There is blood on the hands of the NRA and the politicians in Cork North Central, Cork East and Limerick.
    No there isn't.
    It sure as hell wouldn't happen in Dublin
    Yes it would.
    When the rest of the orbital routes out of Dublin were being built during the Celtic Tiger they were all sections of about 40km each (on average) e.g Galway to Ballinsloe, Limerick to Nenagh etc etc. There must have been about 20 schemes in total. Cork to Limerick is 80km, that's just 2 schemes!! It could easily have been done too if the local politicians gave a toss.....
    The M7 easily surpasses the AADT of the N20 well past Portlaoise and is most likely above it after Nenagh. So the quietest part of the quietest section of the M7 is only a little quieter than the busiest parts of the N20. Hardly comparable.
    All I can find about the M6 is that
    A)The final section was 56km
    and
    B)The total cost was €427m for 194km
    The latest figures I can find for the M20 suggest ~€1Billion

    The M3 was a single scheme and the AADT is initially far higher than the N20 but drops quickly before the second toll. Combined old N3+M3 AADT would again, be higher than the N20 but I'm guessing paying two tolls on a short route is the reason traffic is halved between old+new road(as the old N7 shows no similar distribution).

    N8 Cashel to Mitchelstown and Cashel to Cullahill are the quietest sections of the M8 and to compare the two(~80km and 880m cost) with the proposed M20 is a bit...well...silly. One is finishing the link between the two sections of Motorway that connect the Greater Dublin Area (~1.8m population) with the Greater Cork Area (~520k population) and the other is building a whole new connection between Cork+Limerick.

    Can't find any information on price/length for the various N11/M11 contracts but again AADT suggests that aside from Arklow/Gorey, AADT is higher than N20.

    M9 was 28km, 18.5km, 12km, 24km in it's various schemes.

    Also, there were nowhere near 20 schemes built during the Celtic Tiger.
    The newspapers are saying that the weather conditions were a factor, that's a load of rubbish, there was only a light breeze and the road was damp, it wasn't even raining at the time. A typical morning in Ireland, not exactly an extreme weather event.
    You have no idea what caused her accident but you're categorically stating that it can't have been a factor that newspapers mentioned.


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