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Is the Media Too Soft on Declan Kidney and the Irish Management

  • 17-03-2012 11:45pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭


    I haven't seen one article that has criticised Declan Kidney in all his tenure. Are our journalists really that gutless? Or do they genuinely think that Kidney has done an excellent job these last 2 years?

    Our main rugby pundit, Gerry Thornley seems completely unable to criticise anything about the Irish management. Reading Thornley's articles you'd swear that Ireland are winning games for fun.

    It just seems the hard questions are never asked. Brief paragraphs are given to Touhy not being selected. I find it hard to believe that every journalist thinks bringing on ROG and moving Sexton to 12 is a good idea. Reddan is clearly the better option to Murray yet no journalist questions it. Similarly no journalist questions why Reddan-Sexton arent paired yet they justify DOC-POC on the basis that you dont break up the partnership

    Are Irish rugby journalists afraid that if they stray from the party line that they'll find themselves cut off from the squad and confrences?

    Or do they really believe that Kidney is doing a great job and his selections are spot on?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Thornley doesn't want to risk damaging the relationship with his contacts within the squad. Namely, Kidney.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 288 ✭✭jimbomalley


    Mcgurk alluded to the selection of DOC over Ryan afterwards, think that's the closest thing to criticism I've heard from the media. Hook bashes kidney but then again hook bashes everyone, the man is an idiot as a rugby pundit. It's all very cozy between the Irish media and deco, they need their player interviews after all


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,387 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    A while ago I was watching a Munster game on TV and Hook was one of the pundits. I was pleasantly surprised when he gave a clear, concise and accurate summary of Munster tactics and how they could improve them. Hook is a rugby man and knows the game well. I think he shows his true knowledge only when League matches are being broadcasted. Thats when the more serious fan tunes in

    Stick him in front of a national audience however and all his knowledge goes out the window. He wants to be the Eamon Dunphy of Rugby punditry but he misses the mark by miles. He goes for the controversial statements but instead goes on the most ridiculous, moronic rants about players and coaching. And there are plenty of people that actually buy into his crap.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Borders no.2


    Its a very small circle of people alright. As a Connacht Supporter when Bradley was in charge I read countless articles by a number of journalists saying what a great job Michael Bradley was doing at Connacht.

    If you only watched a couple of Connacht matches like interpros and took your views otherwise from the likes of Hugh Farrelly and so forth you could believe Bradley was doing a great job altogether.

    However the reality most of the time was completely different. The likes of the independent and times have a large amount of space dedicated to rugby and can't risk isolating themselves by getting on the wrong side of these people. Sad but true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,387 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Hugh Farrelly regularly has me scratching my head.

    Reading his stuff makes you wonder if he even knows what he's talking about.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭flyswatter


    And hence, less pressure is placed on Kidney to be sacked than it should be.

    In France the media would savage them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭skregs


    This forum is too soft on him. The man is an embarrassment, yet people rush to defend him on the basis of his performances 5/6 years ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 203 ✭✭Seph503


    skregs wrote: »
    This forum is too soft on him. The man is an embarrassment, yet people rush to defend him on the basis of his performances 5/6 years ago.

    Are you reading the same forum?? I can think of two, maybe 3 posters who are Kidney supporters and that's about it:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Seph503 wrote: »
    Are you reading the same forum?? I can think of two, maybe 3 posters who are Kidney supporters and that's about it:confused:

    There was more support for Eddie on here than there is for Declan IIRC. Still really doubt Kidney is going anywhere.

    And he'll be excused 3 losses in NZ. And then we'll beat someone at home in the AIs and he'll be excused then. And then we'll go into the 2013 6Ns in the exact same position.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    There was more support for Eddie on here than there is for Declan IIRC. Still really doubt Kidney is going anywhere.

    And he'll be excused 3 losses in NZ. And then we'll beat someone at home in the AIs and he'll be excused then. And then we'll go into the 2013 6Ns in the exact same position.
    You can see that he's already got his excuse warmed up and ready to fire at the first sign of attack. His comment about the lack of TH backup is going to be the main pillar of his defense and designed to put the IRFU on the back foot.

    Despite the fact that he's had possible replacements in other areas of the pitch left ignored for years and that Ross himself was a forced decision with the upcoming retirement of Hayes, who spent a year too long in green.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭danthefan


    I will summarise Thornley's article from tomorrow for you all now:

    "Two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref etc etc etc..."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    danthefan wrote: »
    I will summarise Thornley's article from tomorrow for you all now:

    "Two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref etc etc etc..."
    I think I recall a point late in the match when even Nigel Owens took pity on us and failed to penalise the scrum even though it had marched backwards for half a mile and actually waited for the ball to come out.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,963 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    danthefan wrote: »
    I will summarise Thornley's article from tomorrow for you all now:

    "Two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref, two Lions captains and Ross missing plus a mean ref etc etc etc..."

    Thornley's moaning about the ref is seriously starting to grate. He's like a bloody child.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    In all honesty,yes they are far too lenient. It's plain for everyone to see that DOC and D'Arcy should not have been near that squad.TOL ahead of Boss and Marshall also, you can go on and on. Heaslip coasting on previous form.

    I long for the day when we get a coach that is unbiased to players and provinces and picks on form and merit, wishful thinking though.
    Saying that though the players were pathetic yesterday with a few exceptions and should take the blame also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,231 ✭✭✭Hercule Poirot


    We need to do what lancaster did for england, a lot of articles in the english media are praising him for "cutting out the dead wood", we need to follow suit, too many players coasting on past performances


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    I don't understand the Heaslip hate. He's not playing particularly well but he wasn't the worst player by a stretch yesterday. Top line out player in brutal conditions, made a few yards when he carried, made all his tackles and played behind a horrendous scrum. It seems to be very much in fashion to bash him and people are waiting to jump on any mistake. I could name half a dozen players more deserving of criticism yesterday.

    D'Arcy's performance yesterday highlighted that his day is done, something we've all suspected for a long time now. The fact that we so badly need a 12 now makes the ROG/Sexton axis all the more bewildering.

    Anyway, no set piece, no hope. Fundamental of the game and it was underlined yesterday. DK needs to take responsibility. Yesterday's situation was always waiting in the wings and his reluctance to address it came back to haunt him. Several players need to be culled. I can't see any of the notable journalists calling for it though. A minor acknowledgement or two and they'll focus on the return of POC and BOD for NZ.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    We need to do what lancaster did for england, a lot of articles in the english media are praising him for "cutting out the dead wood", we need to follow suit, too many players coasting on past performances
    Game. Plan.

    Blaming players is invidious, yes there were some poor performances, but until you can separate caoching from performances it's poor form to single out individual players.

    Take the French game as a case in point. We were 11 points up at half time and came out to defend the lead in the second half. Such a pathetic, negative approach to a game that was there for the taking is both insulting to the fans and the players alike. We got the draw we deserved but could just as easily have lost it.

    We were being killed in the scrum and the answer was to put on a poor performing SH and play our 10 at 12, adding another 10 to the mix. Why?

    We've shufled our backs like a deck of cards all 6N, bringing on subs in unfamiliar positions and expecting it to work. Completely clueless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Again look back at the AIs in 2010...

    At the time Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan were both starting for their provinces. Neither were in the Irish squad at all. At the time the Ireland scrum was a shambles.

    We all knew John Hayes was nearly done. We all knew Tony Buckley wasn't nearly capable of playing at international level. But they were the two Tightheads in the squad. And in a game against Samoa when we should have been testing out youth and looking at our options we started John Hayes at tighthead.

    Fast forward a year and neither were involved in the team any more after injuries to both forced Kidney to play Mike Ross (who everyone could see was the better player, apart from the Irish management) and he put in the best 6 Nations performance from a tighthead in the professional era. And so yet again an injury forced the right selection onto Kidney and yet again proved the brainless rabble right.

    It is just incredibly disappointing to see this Irish team continually persisting with an approach that has repeatedly failed us and a coach who seems completely oblivious to that fact.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,592 ✭✭✭GerM


    We should be thankful it's the end of the 6N. If we had another game and Ross is injured we'd be looking at Buckley being parachuted back in for another cap. The only other option would appear to be Archer given he was given the nod for the Wolfhounds. Scary stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    Fast forward a year and neither were involved in the team any more after injuries to both forced Kidney to play Mike Ross (who everyone could see was the better player, apart from the Irish management) and he put in the best 6 Nations performance from a tighthead in the professional era. And so yet again an injury forced the right selection onto Kidney and yet again proved the brainless rabble right.

    It is just incredibly disappointing to see this Irish team continually persisting with an approach that has repeatedly failed us and a coach who seems completely oblivious to that fact.
    We've played brinkmanship with selections for a long time now, only making changes and bringing in new players when forced.

    The time to bring in young players is when you don't need them. Sub them on and give them time with the experienced players in small increments so that when you do have to call on them, they're up to speed and ready to slot in.

    The only young players who've been brought in are Conor Murray, who's been dropped in at the deep end with an unfamiliar half back partner., Sean Cronin and Peter O'Mahony who've looked good so far and McFadden who's just been thrown on willy-nilly in short cameos. Worse still he's had to look on from the bench as Sexton's been moved into the slot he should be in to accommodate O'Gara.

    In the case of Cronin and O'Mahony, they've been brought in because of lack of cover through injuries to Wallace and Flannery and McFadden ostensibly to replace D'Arcy, but he's not doing that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,889 ✭✭✭tolosenc


    GerM wrote: »
    We should be thankful it's the end of the 6N. If we had another game and Ross is injured we'd be looking at Buckley being parachuted back in for another cap. The only other option would appear to be Archer given he was given the nod for the Wolfhounds. Scary stuff.

    Given the nod for the Wolfhounds, and marched backwards in even more dramatic fashion than Court by the Saxons. If that game was a fair representation of Archer's ability, give me Buckley any day. And I do not say that lightly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    tolosenc wrote: »
    Given the nod for the Wolfhounds, and marched backwards in even more dramatic fashion than Court by the Saxons. If that game was a fair representation of Archer's ability, give me Buckley any day. And I do not say that lightly.
    I don't disagree with you, but we're not doing anything to develop props. I very seldom agree with George Hook, but he's right in saying that we should have a dedicated props academy and pull lads in from an early age and develop them to the point where they can join the provincial teams. With the exception of Leinster and to a lesser extent Connacht, the provinces are just taking a short term view and bringing in imports to balance the deficit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,257 ✭✭✭Hagz


    I think we are doing an incredible amount to produce props, it will just take a year or two to show.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭dougieruggie


    Archer is a dreadful scrummager. I've seen him minced in the scrums by Jack McGrath when he came on for Munster A about 2-3 years ago. The ref had to go to non contested scrums because he was genuinely worried for Archer's safety.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    Again look back at the AIs in 2010...

    At the time Mike Ross and Jamie Hagan were both starting for their provinces. Neither were in the Irish squad at all. At the time the Ireland scrum was a shambles.

    We all knew John Hayes was nearly done. We all knew Tony Buckley wasn't nearly capable of playing at international level. But they were the two Tightheads in the squad. And in a game against Samoa when we should have been testing out youth and looking at our options we started John Hayes at tighthead.

    Fast forward a year and neither were involved in the team any more after injuries to both forced Kidney to play Mike Ross (who everyone could see was the better player, apart from the Irish management) and he put in the best 6 Nations performance from a tighthead in the professional era. And so yet again an injury forced the right selection onto Kidney and yet again proved the brainless rabble right.

    It is just incredibly disappointing to see this Irish team continually persisting with an approach that has repeatedly failed us and a coach who seems completely oblivious to that fact.

    The bolded part is just not true. At the time of the '10 AI's Buckley had come of the much fabled heroics against New Zealand and had started the season well for Munster. He had a decent set of internationals. We know now that it was time wasted, but as I'm repeatedly said on here; he looked like he was starting to come good.

    That does not excuse Hayes' start against Samoa, but posters are using Buckley's implosion in 2011 to deride his selection in 2010.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The bolded part is just not true. At the time of the '10 AI's Buckley had come of the much fabled heroics against New Zealand and had started the season well for Munster. He had a decent set of internationals. We know now that it was time wasted, but as I'm repeatedly said on here; he looked like he was starting to come good.

    That does not excuse Hayes' start against Samoa, but posters are using Buckley's implosion in 2011 to deride his selection in 2010.
    That's not true. Buckley was clearly not good enough. Nobody was convinced by that one-off performance. Reread the threads. I mean you said:
    Ill agree that Ross deserves a chance, but he only ever be 2nd choice behind Buckley and possibly Court too.
    Most people were slightly more optimistic about his chances. We had a whole thread in November 2010 entitled "Why dont the Irish Management Team Rate the scrum and Mike Ross..."

    We also had Sean O'Brien being kept out of the squad by an unfit and out of form Denis Leamy, another crazy selection.

    Unfortunately form players being overlooked is a bit of a regular occurrence in Irish rugby and I have no reason to believe that will stop happening any time soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Archer is a dreadful scrummager. I've seen him minced in the scrums by Jack McGrath when he came on for Munster A about 2-3 years ago. The ref had to go to non contested scrums because he was genuinely worried for Archer's safety.

    2-3 years ago he was 20 years old... So hardly fair to judge him based on that.

    I haven't seen a huge amount from him but I wouldn't write him off yet. I would put Macklin and Hagan ahead of him as prospects but I hope he continues to improve. He was very poor for the Wolfhounds but at least he has looked good for Munster the odd time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 502 ✭✭✭dougieruggie


    Lets not forget that Healy didn't get his chance until Horan got injured.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Cpt_Blackbeard


    2-3 years ago he was 20 years old... So hardly fair to judge him based on that.

    I haven't seen a huge amount from him but I wouldn't write him off yet. I would put Macklin and Hagan ahead of him as prospects but I hope he continues to improve. He was very poor for the Wolfhounds but at least he has looked good for Munster the odd time.

    I don't think anyone is too confident with Archer's scrummaging ability, but what I will say is that he has improved immeasurably. It was less than a year ago that he somehow managed to scrummage outside the opposition LH in one scrum like. He is now starting to be able to hold his own in the scrum and hopefully he'll continue his improvement.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭desertcircus


    At this stage I'm not sure how much blame can be placed on Kidney rather than the IRFU themselves. The decisions which have been made regarding the national team have been genuinely mystifying for quite a while now.

    Just as an illustration of what we could have done: Ireland and England both went to the World Cup and were knocked out at quarter-final level. England came home, threw a collective knicker-fit, and sacked more or less the entire management team, before handing the keys to an interim coach who dropped half the first fifteen and gave the captaincy to a man with one cap behind him. Ireland came home, changed outhalves, and finished in their second worst position since the addition of Italy to the tournament, being beaten heavily by that same England team.

    The English had been beaten off the park in last year's fixture. Their players had all taken beatings at the hands of Irish provinces. Yet they savaged us. And it wasn't even a particularly big shock to see it happening; disappointment and failure come naturally to the national team in a way that they don't to the provincial sides. Something is rotten in the way the national team is run, and until we find it and fix it, we're going to be stuck with the same cycle of being happy with the odd Triple Crown and the same sense of grim resignation when players with Heineken Cup medals around their necks get beaten by players who are lucky to make the knockouts of their domestic leagues.


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