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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    Phase 2 of the WRC is predicted to carry the same number of passengers in a year as the Luas does in a day.

    Luas cost 13 time more but carries 365 times more people.

    I'd love if the 60 million could be spent on Western public transport in a sensible way. bus lanes, cycle infrastructure, footpaths and lighting you could probably do a lot for 60 million instead of building a train service to carry 178 passengers a day.

    Running near empty trains helps nobody.

    As DWCommuter says, sadly this development looks very likely to happen as there is little else in the pipeline ready to build and so much planning has been done on it and it has all-party support.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Zoney wrote: »
    Actually that's a bit of an exaggeration - it is low hundreds of thousands (100-200,000 conservatively) in the Galway/Limerick regions and high hundreds of thousands (even if a bit past *one* million) that would be served by the developments in Dublin. Millions vs. thousands is not quite on the mark.

    I was talking about passenger journies, not actual passengers. But thanks for being pedantic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I hate to disagree with you Westtip, but this line will go ahead because;

    1. Its low cost and appeases the western fraternity after years of "traditional" lobbying for the restoration of their "trean".

    2. It creates the "illusion" that Transport 21 is actually in motion when its really just a mechanism for developmental announcements. The key difference is that in Dublin its mere planning and preconstruction works due to the real cost of serving millions, while in the west, its easy and cheap relaying of track to provide a pitiful service to thousands.

    Thats politics!

    Yes indeed DW, you are probably right; the flabby white boys will be able to puff their chests out on a photo op on 6.1 news and all claim glory for WOT will be a crap service that is not needed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    corktina wrote: »
    do people from Gort or Ardrahan not travel to Galway then?

    Yes of course they do - but not via Athenry!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    and the people of Tuam? do they have a liking for the rural delights of Athenry?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    dynamick wrote: »
    Luas cost 13 times more but carries 365 times more people.

    I'd love if the 60 million could be spent on Western public transport in a sensible way. bus lanes, cycle infrastructure, footpaths and lighting you could probably do a lot for 60 million instead of building a train service to carry 178 passengers a day.

    Running near empty trains helps nobody.
    I could not have articulated it any better myself.
    The people of the West have been lied to/deceived numerous times over the past few generations - telling them that this or that will help their plight.
    Yes perhaps this WRC will be built, but when it is, it will be to take these people's children to Shannon airport (well close to) in order to emigrate abroad because the Government will have again squandered resources.
    Why, because of the lack of proper planning/imagination/research undertaken by those in power - all this Government did for the past 20 years or so is throw money at problems without looking for the proper solution for each problem!
    FFS - at the last election we had Bertie boasting how much MORE money was being spent on the various services(no mention of performance), so I guess in that vein, this WRC makes sense, build it and the running costs will cost a fortune, but the Government can claim to be great because they are spending millions on public transport (all the while much needed infrastructure in the West goes on the long finger) and who cares if no-one uses it!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    I could not have articulated it any better myself.
    The people of the West have been lied to/deceived numerous times over the past few generations - telling them that this or that will help their plight.
    Yes perhaps this WRC will be built, but when it is, it will be to take these people's children to Shannon airport (well close to) in order to emigrate abroad because the Government will have again squandered resources.
    Why, because of the lack of proper planning/imagination/research undertaken by those in power - all this Government did for the past 20 years or so is throw money at problems without looking for the proper solution for each problem!
    FFS - at the last election we had Bertie boasting how much MORE money was being spent on the various services(no mention of performance), so I guess in that vein, this WRC makes sense, build it and the running costs will cost a fortune, but the Government can claim to be great because they are spending millions on public transport (all the while much needed infrastructure in the West goes on the long finger) and who cares if no-one uses it!
    they threw money around but not at places like st brendans hospital st ita's or st senans in wexford where it was needed! http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/ban-on-new-patients-at-dilapidated-psychiatric-hospitals-2223351.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    dynamick wrote: »
    I'd love if the 60 million could be spent on Western public transport in a sensible way. bus lanes, cycle infrastructure, footpaths and lighting you could probably do a lot for 60 million instead of building a train service to carry 178 passengers a day.

    Running near empty trains helps nobody.
    +1


    I have never understood this preoccupation with rail. Can anybody succinctly explain why busses are not adequate for those in favour of the WRC?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Aard wrote: »
    +1


    I have never understood this preoccupation with rail. Can anybody succinctly explain why busses are not adequate for those in favour of the WRC?

    Indeed Aard this is the question that never gets asked, what would the proposed 60 million capex on Athenry Tuam branch line actually do if it were spent on the bus services between Galway and Tuam. Potentially an entire new fleet of buses, buses at more frequent times, late night bus services, buses to place where people want to go: Like Galway Airport, Retail parks and business parks. Of course this does Not even take account of the subvention required to keep the Athenry Tuam branch line open, in future years; god knows what those figures are. Add to that the level crossings on this line are actually going to slow down traffic on the N17, how is that going to help commuters and commercial traffic on this busy road? In fact i can feel a submission to ABP asking them to refuse permission on this basis and only granting permission when the road has been built......Now that would be a fly in the ointment!

    The whole WRC agenda has been driven by one very vociferous and well managed pressure group and has little to do with the common man who lives in the west. It is about a toy train set for a small group of people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    westtip wrote: »
    It is about a toy train set for a small group of people.

    Who won't even use it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Build it and they will come at least I will - for my one trip northwards from Claremorris to Collooney - and then they can rip it up again. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Build it and they will come at least I will - for my one trip northwards from Claremorris to Collooney - and then they can rip it up again. :D

    JD yes a wonderful idea and I will join you with a flagon of ginger beer.


  • Posts: 5,121 Ashlyn Round Spit


    I don't think the Tuam-Athenry section impacts the N17 - it would impact the Roscommon road (N63?)

    Good point on the €60,000,000 - there are bus lanes into Claregalway now.

    €60,000,000 would pay for some very fancy bus stops and busses to Parkmore, Ballybrit, the University etc.

    Some of these are already provided by a private operator - Burkes Busses though I would like to see greater frequency and late busses etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    It will certainly hold up traffic in Tuam town centre, the N17 to my knowledge crosses the line on the crawl you generally do through tuam - admittedly the line then doew swing a long way east of the N17 in the direction of Athenry (I just wonder what the journey time Tuam/Athenry/Galway will be!) whilst the road does at least point in the direction of Galway. The real fun will start on the N17 north of Tuam - on the proposed Claremorris Tuam section - just how many times does the WRC cut over the n17 on that section 3? 4? 5? times No doubt someone can tell us - it would be a joke to have so many level crossings on a main trunk so one presumes the N17 will have to be re-developed first which will in reality kill this whole hairbrained project in any event, just as the new road to the south will spell the fast strangulation of the Limerick-Athenry - Galway branch line.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    €60,000,000 would be better spent buying one-way plane tickets for the entire CIE management to leave and never return.

    A line honestly has to be drawn on the ridiculousness. Is every single other lightly-used line in the country going to have to close in order to accomodate this farce.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Is every single other lightly-used line in the country going to have to close in order to accomodate this farce.

    Yes!


    The WRC will be the last railway line to close.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    At €60 million I would expect that Noel Dempsey and John Lynch would also be on the one-way flight. Might as well stick Biffo and the rest of the cabinet on too.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Stonewolf


    At €60 million I would expect that Noel Dempsey and John Lynch would also be on the one-way flight. Might as well stick Biffo and the rest of the cabinet on too.:D

    Nah, with the way CIE does procurement you'd barely get a handful of people on the plane for 60 million.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    heres a challenge - what could 60 million be better spent on in the wesht. I reckon a Claregalway relief road (similar to the enfield bypass) might just be done for about that price. It would be more popular in Tuam than a branchline to Athenry, and BTW would not need subventing on an ongoing basis - a bit of white paint, and some tarmac every five years should do it, and the lecky bill for the lamposts. Has anyone got any upto date estimates for the subvention needed for the Tuam-Athenry branch line over the first five years. BTW not seen this quote from July 6th Indo posted to this thread which surprised me

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/key-road-and-rail-projects-axed-as-money-runs-out-2247169.html
    The only projects considered "safe" under the NDP are Metro North, the Atlantic Corridor Road project linking Letterkenny to Waterford, and the underground DART.

    Government sources confirmed vulnerable projects included four Metro/Luas schemes -- Metro West, Luas lines from Cherrywood to Bray, Lucan to the city centre and St Stephen's Green to Liffey Junction.

    Question marks also hang over the N3 Belturbet bypass in Co Cavan, the N5 Longford bypass, the N22 Tralee bypass and N25 Cork southern ring road junction upgrade.

    These are due to go ahead next year "subject to funding being available". Phase two and three of the Western Rail Corridor are also in doubt as the Government undertakes its review of the NDP.

    Mmmm.....tell us what we didn't know and suspect - I wonder WOT positive spin WOT will put on this no doubt they will come out with a press release to counteract it! With the Dail not sitting and an announcement probably due on in the WRC in September - the PR softening up process is now in place - a few more DOT PR releases lads and we will at long last know this lunatic idea is buried.

    good news about the ATR though.....although that won't happen either in our lifetimes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭Pete2k


    westtip wrote: »
    It will certainly hold up traffic in Tuam town centre, the N17 to my knowledge crosses the line on the crawl you generally do through tuam - admittedly the line then doew swing a long way east of the N17 in the direction of Athenry (I just wonder what the journey time Tuam/Athenry/Galway will be!) whilst the road does at least point in the direction of Galway. The real fun will start on the N17 north of Tuam - on the proposed Claremorris Tuam section - just how many times does the WRC cut over the n17 on that section 3? 4? 5? times No doubt someone can tell us - it would be a joke to have so many level crossings on a main trunk so one presumes the N17 will have to be re-developed first which will in reality kill this whole hairbrained project in any event, just as the new road to the south will spell the fast strangulation of the Limerick-Athenry - Galway branch line.

    Assuming the new station in Tuam is either a refurbishment of the existing building or is built in the same location then the Tuam-Athenry section will have absolutely no effect on Traffic through Tuam town. There are 2 level crossings in Tuam. The first is located just beside the station but to the west of it so any train to or from Athenry will not have to cross it to get to the station. The other level crossing does indeed cross the N17 but this is about 300-400m to the west of the other crossing again so neither gate would have to be closed to allow trains to enter Tuam. The only effect on traffic through Tuam would be an increase in cars to and from Tuam station with people either parking there or dropping people off to catch the train and then collecting them again.

    How many times does the WRC cross the N17 between Tuam-Claremorris? Answer is 5. Once in Tuam, twice between Milltown-Ballindine and twice between Ballindine-Claremorris. Only 2 of the crossings are still manual gates though, the one in Tuam and the one nearest Milltown. The other 3 were all automated in the 90's when the line was still carrying freight.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Pete2k wrote: »
    The only effect on traffic through Tuam would be an increase in cars to and from Tuam station with people either parking there or dropping people off to catch the train and then collecting them again..

    Now you are seriously having a laugh, a special offer at Lidl will cause more traffic issues than the rush to catch trains on the Tuam/Athenry branch line. Any idea what the commute time to Galway will be?
    Pete2k wrote: »
    How many times does the WRC cross the N17 between Tuam-Claremorris? Answer is 5. Once in Tuam, twice between Milltown-Ballindine and twice between Ballindine-Claremorris. Only 2 of the crossings are still manual gates though, the one in Tuam and the one nearest Milltown. The other 3 were all automated in the 90's when the line was still carrying freight.

    Thanks for that I thought it was around that mark; Automated or not that's five points of crossing - so five hold up points for commercial traffic and people trying to get to where they work in outer parts of Galway surburban area, and through traffic on the N17/18 to places like Shannon to get flights, people doing school runs etc - boy this will be popular in that part of Galway. Mind you it should be no more than 5 trains a day each way 10 in total, Mind you at 4 minutes per hold up thats 40 minutes hold up per level crossings times by five level crossings that's 200 minutes of delays per day on the N17 between claremorris and Tuam, Wow! who would have thought this was the way the WRC would beat the bus timetables! Then each hold up will create a "convoy" effect on traffic having bunched up cars in queues and releasing them each time as an unnecessary build of traffic onto what is known as a notorious section of road - so the WRC will in all liklihood result in risky overtaking on a dangerous road, resulting in more traumatic accidents - you see start to pile all this thinking up and then sit back and wonder??? In fact the way the crossings are interspersed, a hold up at one crossing on the N17, may actually lead to dangerous driving as drivers will say I want to toe it down this section of the road so I don't get caught by the same train six miles down the road, if an impatient driver is say caught at the back of a convoy created at one crossing starts to take risks to prevent another hold up (and this is a realistic picture to paint), then this may lead to accidents - now i know the train per se will not be at fault - the impatient driver will be - but why create this scenario? I can feel a note to ABP, DOT, A&E consultants at Casltebar, NRA, coming on to point out this potential creator of a traffic hazard, they might just take notice don't ya think?


    Boy no wonder it was recently said the ARC is a greater priority - and all this probably to serve about 20 passengers on average per train. don't ya think it all begins to sound a bit on the silly side of common sense!

    BTW there are 290 crossings on the Claremorris/Collooney section, but lets not even go there!

    Anyway as the Indo reported last week phases 2 and 3 now look under pressure and the ARC seems to be the shining star of capital projects in the west. Not before time as well - politicians might wake up to what the real vote winner in the west is - At least some sense may come out of tighter fiscal thinking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    Is every single other lightly-used line in the country going to have to close in order to accomodate this farce.

    Yep. It appears that the cuts will be as follows:

    Price of Phase 1: Waterford to Rosslare
    Price of Phase 2: Nenagh Branch
    Price of Phase 3: Limerick to Waterford

    Although not officially on the agenda, the word is that IE remain close Wexford-Rosslare. If I can summon the motivation, I may even do a map showing the likely new shape of the railway network post the consessions to the Wesht.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,465 ✭✭✭highlydebased


    Alright, lets shut down the rail network because of level crossings. A danger to humanity and society.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Hungerford wrote: »
    post the consessions to the Wesht.

    to certain parts of the wesht. the two branch lines from ennis to Athenry and the branch line from claremorris/Tuam to Athenry will service a tiny portion of the western population.

    And remember there are those of us in the wesht who see the folly of it all!

    Re Rail crossings in the post above, no railway crossings are not a dnager to to life and society but 5 railway crossings by one rail line across one national route within a distance of 20 miles is actually unacceptable to road users and to public transport users and providers (bus companies), and actually could be dangerous - and may not get planning permission because of the inherent dangers it will create. I have never thought of this angle but I am sure there are businesses in the wesht who will object to this delay in supply chain logistics that the branch line from Athenry to Claremorris is going to cause. Certainly I think now it is time to highlight this potential danger.

    According to NRA traffic counts http://nraextra.nra.ie/CurrentTrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm

    14,390 vehicles a day used the Tuam road N17 in March 2010, that's a lot of people to get held up at five railway crossings, no the railway crossings of the branch line over the N17 will not threaten humanity they will however make it more difficult to supply goods, get to school and work and to plan journies, do you really think they are going to build bridges at all these crossing points? Because that is what is needed. Tell me where else in the country are National routes crossed over by rail crossings to this degree? I think the truth is now out - the ARC is at long last seen as the priority and yes it will be more expensive, but to open the branch line from Athenry to Tuam and Claremorris is going to cause mayhem on on a national road route - and this will have to be resolved first. I am now totally convinced this project is going to the back of a very long queue and really the reason why is now so blindingly obvious. Its a simple engineering issue.

    I think WOT should start campaigning for the N17 upgrade - because until that happens I don't think there is going to be any railway - and if the N17 doesn't get upgraded frankly who will give a toss about the branch line from Athenry to tuam and Claremorris. BE will be able to destroy the rail service (I know farcical isn't it), Private busess will destroy BE, and our newpapers will arrive on time in the morning - and guess what most of us in the west will never have to go near Tuam again......now there's a thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭Pete2k


    The figure I've heard on commute time from Tuam-Galway is 35mins. This assumes no stop in Ballyglunin (believe me it's quite plausible that if the line does go ahead then the station here could well be redeveloped given it's 'famous':rolleyes: status) and no stop at the future Oranmore station.

    I do think your somewhat wrong on the traffic situation tho Westtip as I do honestly think that a few people who refuse to use buses will use the train. however 80% of the trains future patronage will come from people who currently use Burkes Bus. This will shift the traffic from the Cathedral car park to the station. Assuming the fares are pretty close I can see alot of people switching given it could potentially be 30mins quicker in peak hrs than the bus to Eyre Square. I used Burkes myself for 4 yrs in college and I can tell you that alot of students do commute to Galway every day from Tuam, if the train had been available then I probably would have used it assuming the fares were near enough. I hated the journey in and out of Galway every day stuck in traffic for ages and then stopping about 30 times letting people get on and off anywhere they wanted. Yes it was a good service for them but not for anyone going all the way to Tuam. And it wasn't just students either, quite a few other people used to get on and off in Eyre Square as well so many of them would probably switch.
    Now I know there's the argument of why provide a Train when there's already an existing bus service but I'm not going to get into that argument, I'm only stating what I think will happen and if IE provide a train that goes to the same place as the bus but potentially 30mins+ quicker for the same price then of course people are going to use it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    experiance with the Ennis to Athenry shows quite clearly that bus and train prices will be very dis-similar....
    how can you justify spending many many miliions in Capital plus more millions in subsidy for a service used by perhaps two busfulls of people a day?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    How much is galway to limerick by train? €20 and that is heavily subsidized! Compare that to busses on the same route that are faster for €10-€15 and ask yourself how would the 2nd stretch of the western rail folly be any cheaper than the alternatives?


  • Registered Users Posts: 607 ✭✭✭Neworder79


    As said many times on this thread most people living in the West would far rather see the N17/N5 improvements prioratised before experimental rail projects. But one loud lobby group have take over the western infrastructure debate.

    The problem is the Government have been telling us we can have it all for the last 10 years, there was no need to lobby for roads, those days are clearly over and much of the planned road infrastructure is suspended, but the rail group still shouted the loudest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Neworder79 wrote: »
    As said many times on this thread most people living in the West would far rather see the N17/N5 improvements prioratised before experimental rail projects. But one loud lobby group have take over the western infrastructure debate.

    The problem is the Government have been telling us we can have it all for the last 10 years, there was no need to lobby for roads, those days are clearly over and much of the planned road infrastructure is suspended, but the rail group still shouted the loudest.

    I think there is a growing realisation that the priority now is the N17, (even amongst our politicians) not least cos of the tragic road safety record it has and because the ARC is actually of huge strategic economic and social signifigance. I think you might find the WRC north of Athenry will be suspended until the road is finished, from the N6 - Claremorris and one of the reasons for this is that which I have highlighted in the past few days - re the amount of times the rail line cuts across the N17 which I hadn't given a second thought to till recently - the actual excuse to suspend the WRC north of Athenry (not that any is needed its a complete folly) will be the fiscal situation - we can't afford this line, based on need/demand versus priority on funds - the funding of the WRC is simply not a high priority.

    I really am beginning to think that WOT need to get their act together - cos the final link they really want (and as DW has pointed out a long time ago - this whole campaign was always about a line to Claremorris), will not happen as long as the existing N17 remains the arterial road route - until that section is upgraded and completely rebuilt on another route a train line that cuts across the main road 5 times in such a short distance on the N17 simply won't happen (surely not even in Ireland could we see such stupidity) - and lobbyists and government agencies such as NRA, the RSA, ABP, the Road Haulage industry, the private bus industry will or at least should have something to say about it - and it won't be a matter of road v rail, but a matter of safety versus danger. If the road is delivered of course the whole raison d'etre of the branch line from Claremorris to Athenry becomes very questionable. I actually do think WOT are now between the rock and the hard place and the future of the branch line north of Athenry is very very shaky.
    Pete2k wrote: »
    The figure I've heard on commute time from Tuam-Galway is 35mins..

    Not sure where you get this figure from - but I think you do have to assume the stops you mentioned - I guess the branch line from the north doesn't need to have driver turn round time at Athenry when the "corridor" meets the T junction to Galway. Your 35 minutes is probably based on a straight run through and no waits at Athenry for clearance to use the single track line into Galway, which admittedly if this project was going to be done properly should have been double tracked when phase 1 was built - but lets not go there eh!
    Pete2k wrote: »
    I do think your somewhat wrong on the traffic situation tho Westtip as I do honestly think that a few people who refuse to use buses will use the train. however 80% of the trains future patronage will come from people who currently use Burkes Bus...

    Point made by others - why spend 60 million in CAPEX on building a rail line for students (all respect to our students), when they have a bus service already and in the hope a "few people" to use your own phrase will start using the train - and why should the Germans money we have to borrow for this project be used to put Burkes buses out of business?
    Pete2k wrote: »
    Assuming the fares are pretty close ...

    Others have said it but the evidence across the country and indeed in the UK (compare rail fares with bus fares there) there is no reason to make this assumption - in fact quite the opposite!
    Pete2k wrote: »
    Now I know there's the argument of why provide a Train when there's already an existing bus service but I'm not going to get into that argument, I'm only stating what I think will happen and if IE provide a train that goes to the same place as the bus but potentially 30mins+ quicker for the same price then of course people are going to use it.

    Your assumptions I think may be a bit shaky and are not sound enough reasons to borrow another 60 million from the Germans and to increase the national Overdraft further to subvent the line in the future. BTW: Just because some of us argue against the Tuam/Claremorris branchline does not mean to say we are against public transport being improved we just see a different and more cost effective way of doing it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    As promised by me yesterday. I have got the crayons out - it's based on someone else's map so the spelling mistakes aren't mine. I haven't included the Clonsilla to Navan line because I didn't have the alignment details to hand.

    The current network:
    500pIEnetwork.jpg

    The network following the rumoured sacrifices so that WOT can be pleased. Look how empty the South-East is...
    500ppIEnetwork.jpg


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