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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

  • 10-12-2009 9:53pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Right. Im sick of all the indecision and pathetic references in disguised threads. Can we finally have this thread to discuss the pros cons and politics of this project, inclusive of all that goes with it.

    Alternatively could a mod have the decency to tell us if WRC threads are now banned? If not can we get this one rolling? Its fair to say that a lot of us want to talk about it.

    When the Ennis-Athenry line does open other threads can be started to discuss services. Until then all there is to talk about is the ifs and buts of its potential from Limerick to Colooney.

    If anyone wants to reference anything in the original thread it can be found at this link;

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=141318


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    potential...

    limerick to ennis quite good
    ennis to galway may be Ok
    galway to tuam doubtful
    tuam northward none

    IMHO


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Right. Im sick of all the indecision and pathetic references in disguised threads. Can we finally have this thread to discuss the pros cons and politics of this project, inclusive of all that goes with it.

    Alternatively could a mod have the decency to tell us if WRC threads are now banned? If not can we get this one rolling? Its fair to say that a lot of us want to talk about it.

    When the Ennis-Athenry line does open other threads can be started to discuss services. Until then all there is to talk about is the ifs and buts of its potential from Limerick to Colooney.

    Here here - but i take umbrage at the word "pathetic" in terms of references in disguised threads, the less than wail collidor was for the time of year - a piece of pantomine. I shall go to that thread for a final post of interest right now...

    Now where we all before we got rudely interupted (and I take it we may be again.) Actually at this point in time I don't think I've got much more to say...:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    From Shane in the thread about a thread. Think it belongs here.
    Ya its flooded again. I expect the line to be closed until atleast march or april next year. The water is about 2 feet over the tracks which are laid on a 2meter hign bank !

    And if their is nothing done about it it will be flooded again next winter!

    Can flooding on this line last that long?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    What effect will the budget have on the WRC

    Rail projects to be completed next year will include the Western Rail Corridor Phase 1;

    but no mention of phase 2 Athenry - Tuam or 3 tuam - Claremorris

    both of which I think are dead in the water (not flood water north of Athenry)

    here is the full report on Transport from the IT WRC bits highlighted
    O'BRIENTRANSPORT: ANNOUNCING DETAILS of the Transport budget, Minister Noel Dempsey said the 2010 provision for roads would be €1.637 billion, €280 million (14.6 per cent) down on the revised 2009 allocation.

    Of this, €1.115 billion is to be used on national roads, particularly to complete schemes linking Dublin with the regional cities; and €411 million will be provided for the upkeep and maintenance of local and regional roads.

    There will be €920 million for public transport of which CIÉ will receive direct subvention of €276 million. This is a reduction of €27 million (8.8 per cent).

    The capital provision for public transport investment is €625 million, €3 million lower than in 2009. Rail projects to be completed next year will include the Western Rail Corridor Phase 1; the Luas extension to Cherrywood; the Kildare Rail Project; and the Navan Railway Line Phase 1. Work will continue on the Luas extension to Citywest for completion in 2011. Planning will continue on Metro North and Dart Underground.

    The 2010 provision for road safety is €37.5 million, compared with €37.2 million in 2009. This is intended to help maintain the downward trend in road deaths.

    Maritime transport and safety has been allocated €53 million, compared with €49 million in 2009. The principal item is the provision of a search and rescue helicopter service for €27.3 million.

    The 2010 provision for aviation is €23.2 million, compared with €26.2 million in 2009.

    Public-private partnership (PPP) operational payments will amount to €43.4 million in 2010. This funding is used to make annual payments to PPP operators for road projects where private investment is not remunerated by tolls.

    The administrative budget of the Department of Transport is being reduced by €2.9 million in 2010.

    Reductions totalling €2 million are also being made in the administrative budgets of a number of agencies, principally the National Roads Authority, Railway Procurement Agency and Railway Safety Commission.

    Apart from phase 1 been completed (which in effect aside from some station work) has been done. It does not augur well for the Greens nw programme for Governmetn negotiated with FF in which a committment was made to WRC. Also highlighted what they say about what planning will continue next year - see anything conspicuous by its absence?

    Any ducks on those floods south of Athenry. This one appears dead in the water.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Alternatively could a mod have the decency to tell us if WRC threads are now banned? If not can we get this one rolling? Its fair to say that a lot of us want to talk about it.

    This is my view on the subject.

    No, WRC threads are not now banned. However, given the general tendency for them to descend into puerile farce, they get closed with rather alarming frequency and I get reminded by just how idiotic people can be on the internet.

    If this thread progresses in a constructive manner, then I don't have an issue with it. If it derails, becomes a safe haven for trolls and idiocy, regardless of what your stance on it is, then it will result in bans and a thread lock.

    Ultimately, the fate of the thread is in the hands of the posters. If you collectively have a grown up discussion about it, we're okay. If you don't, we're not.

    I'd advise any posters against

    1) trolling
    2) backseat modding
    3) insulting other users
    4) generally messing the thread around.

    If you the community take this advice on board, I will be saved from having to do any major moderation in here. This would be a boon to be honest.

    I am hopeful that this will be the case.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    OK calina very interesting. Why not just open the original thread with these rules. Because that thread contains essays arguments newspaper articles links to relevant items --- the list goes on - it is in fact an ongoing commentary of everything that has been debated on the WRC in the past six and half years in one thread here on boards.ie and if new people come in to ask a question they can merely be sent a link to a previous post.

    Like DW I am fed up with all this farce that is going on I actually used to quite enjoy debating issues on these boards, but this has now become a battle and clearly the heels are dug in and the thread which contains a massive amount of information on the WRC does not appear to be going to open - All you have to do Calina is open the old thread.

    Derek I admire your idea but the thread that should be opened up is the one that should never have been closed, not least because of the massive amount of information it contains.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i dont agree...you can never have 100% of what you want and I think we should move forward from here.You can still access the old thread I believe and refer people to it by means of quoting can you not? Lets ALL stop acting the Maggot and behave ourselves


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Westtip, cut the backseat moderating.

    If you want to discuss the WRC this is where you are going to do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Calina wrote: »
    Westtip, cut the backseat moderating.

    If you want to discuss the WRC this is where you are going to do it.

    Fine. Derek good luck with the thread. I take it you are not going to re-open the old thread, and this is not backseat moderating it is purely asking a question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭Rawr


    I fully endorse this school, amenity, and/or discussion thread.

    I'm glad to see a Western Rail Corridor thread finally up and running. I am of coarse saddened that the monster that was the original WRC thread, does not appear to be returning.

    However, it remains in place, and shall continue to do so I hope. Instead of focusing on the rukus of the past weeks, I would ask (as a boardsie who loves this debate) for everyone to get back to the debate in earnest.

    Having the WRC thread desend into a heated debate about itself merely serves elements of West On Track and their ilk, who seem to have a thing about negative comment regarding the corridor.

    I hope for the flooding on the WRC to end soon, in order to actually see what happens. Either way, it will be a good debate in the first few days of it's running.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭T Corolla


    I done some rescearch on the population densities from Sligo to Limerick and was not surprised why there is no case for the WRC beyond Tuam. Here are the totals
    Sligo 19400
    Collooney 1000
    Tubbercurry 3000
    Charlestown 860
    Swinford 1500
    Kiltimagh 1100
    Clairemorris 2600
    Ballindine 800
    Miltown 1500
    Tuam 6900
    Ballyglunin 200
    Athenry 4100
    Craughwell 400
    ardrahan 400
    Gort 1800
    Ennis 24300
    Sixmilebridge 2100
    Compared to Sligo to Dublin which is rumoured to be a loss making services if it is there is no case for Sligo to Limerick
    Dublin to Sligo
    Colooney 1000
    Ballymote 3000
    Boyle 2530
    Carrick On Shannon 3200
    Dromond 510
    Longford 8900
    Edgeworthtown 250
    Mullingar 18500
    Enfield 2200
    Kilcock 4100
    Maynooth 10,715
    There is as much of a case for a railway from Waterford to Cork or Cavan to Dublin to Cavan as there is for a railway north of Tuam
    Waterford to Cork
    Dungarvan 8400
    Youghal 6500
    Midelton 10000
    Dublin to Cavan
    Cavan 7900
    Virginia 3190
    Kells 5250
    Navan 25000
    Dunboyne 5400
    These are the town and envoirn population as per 2006. I think of all the towns on WRC Tuam has the best chance. I intend going back to the web to find the elevation all the towns from Sligo to Tuam are above water level to see how many times it would be shut due to flodding as is the case with the Limerick to Ennis line currently and the Sligo to Dublin line. I understand that the population densities are one of the indicators of determing if a service is viable or not


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Reopening to Tuam only helps very little (and certainly not without serious upgrades to Athenry-Galway track capacity). Reopening to Claremorris improves system resilency while creating plausible routings like Ballina-Limerick (as part of maintenance movements that will be happening anyway, via Athlone).

    Claremorris-Collooney is a WHOLE different thing altogether.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    in the current climate i think its academic isnt it? With cutbacks inevitable at IE, will the WRC open at all at this time? or will some other line close to allow it to open?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Link to the original WRC thread if anyone wants to reference some of the very good information there. No nonsense. Just genuine stuff please.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=141318


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    My view of the Western Rail Corridor is that it is funadmentally hampered by 4 factors:

    1) Low population density - no business case possible North of Tuam.
    2) Light railway construction North of Tuam.
    3) Chronic flooding on the key Ennis-Limerick section.
    4) Interchange at Athenry.

    1) is self explanitory. 2) has been well discussed on these forums. 3) Means that you either need to spend a good deal of money raising or adding drainage to the Ennis-Limerick section or accept the continuance of this regular and prolonged flooding.
    4) Is where things get interesting and its where the case for any WRC North of Tuam truly falls apart.
    If you have a train coming from North of Athenry, you hit the junction there which is a good journey outside Galway City, do you send trains down to Limerick, bigger city, or Galway, which is closer and probably has more commuters?
    • You can't send the trains into Galway and then double back for Limerick because that would add a significant delay for Mayo-Limerick passengers, i.e. the bus (and the car) would just go straight through the M17(M6)M18 junction at Rathmorrisey and beat the train.
    • You can't split the trains half to/from Galway and half to/from Limerick because both destinations would have too few services.
    So the service pattern and target markets all would have to be carefully defined and it would likely transpire that the only viable combination would be:
    1) Galway-Limerick
    2) Tuam-Galway COMMUTER services.
    With a guaranteed connection of meeting trains at Athenry station for those who might want to travel betwee Tuam or Mayo and the Southern part of the line.

    That's my take on it anyway. Unless the country hits a major jackpot and we have the money to build a totally new line STRAIGHT between at least Limerick and Galway (circumventing the flooding and Athenry interchange problems, as well as preferably taking in Shannon Airport) we may as well dispatch the track lifting machine to everything above Tuam.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    i think that splitting/joining trains at Athenry would be the answer there...


  • Registered Users Posts: 912 ✭✭✭Hungerford


    T Corolla wrote: »
    Compared to Sligo to Dublin which is rumoured to be a loss making services if it is there is no case for Sligo to Limerick

    Ahem. Weirdly enough, Sligo to Dublin is one of IE's busiest and fastest growing Intercity routes even though they've done their damnest to alienate the route's passengers in the past.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    SeanW wrote: »
    My view of the Western Rail Corridor is that it is funadmentally hampered by 4 factors:

    And hampered even more by your specifically accusing me HERE of supporting lines with an even worse business case than the WRC rather than address any points I made and taking that thread way off topic with frivolous rubbish :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭T Corolla


    SeanW wrote: »
    My view of the Western Rail Corridor is that it is funadmentally hampered by 4 factors:

    1) Low population density - no business case possible North of Tuam.
    2) Light railway construction North of Tuam.
    3) Chronic flooding on the key Ennis-Limerick section.
    4) Interchange at Athenry.

    1) is self explanitory. 2) has been well discussed on these forums. 3) Means that you either need to spend a good deal of money raising or adding drainage to the Ennis-Limerick section or accept the continuance of this regular and prolonged flooding.
    4) Is where things get interesting and its where the case for any WRC North of Tuam truly falls apart.
    If you have a train coming from North of Athenry, you hit the junction there which is a good journey outside Galway City, do you send trains down to Limerick, bigger city, or Galway, which is closer and probably has more commuters?
    • You can't send the trains into Galway and then double back for Limerick because that would add a significant delay for Mayo-Limerick passengers, i.e. the bus (and the car) would just go straight through the M17(M6)M18 junction at Rathmorrisey and beat the train.
    • You can't split the trains half to/from Galway and half to/from Limerick because both destinations would have too few services.
    So the service pattern and target markets all would have to be carefully defined and it would likely transpire that the only viable combination would be:
    1) Galway-Limerick
    2) Tuam-Galway COMMUTER services.
    With a guaranteed connection of meeting trains at Athenry station for those who might want to travel betwee Tuam or Mayo and the Southern part of the line.

    That's my take on it anyway. Unless the country hits a major jackpot and we have the money to build a totally new line STRAIGHT between at least Limerick and Galway (circumventing the flooding and Athenry interchange problems, as well as preferably taking in Shannon Airport) we may as well dispatch the track lifting machine to everything above Tuam.

    I am in agreement with the thread. There is no business case for services between Limerick to Galway as the population outside Ennis is low.
    To be brief
    (1) Limerick-Sixmilebridge-Moyross-Ennis
    (2) Galway-Athenry-Tuam.
    Unless the line is brought up to 70mph speeds and 22k Intercity services is used on the Limerick-Galway line it will not yield returns justified to pay for its construction and future maintenance. Final point to IR work on the commuter traffic first then think of the intercity traffic as population and demand builds


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    And hampered even more by your specifically accusing me HERE
    which I've dealt with in that thread.
    taking that thread way off topic with frivolous rubbish :(
    And with this post, you're doing ... what exactly?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Hungerford wrote: »
    Ahem. Weirdly enough, Sligo to Dublin is one of IE's busiest and fastest growing Intercity routes even though they've done their damnest to alienate the route's passengers in the past.
    I'd like to see numbers for north of Mullingar/Longford though. There's also the issue that the air alternative has ended up in Sligo Harbour at least once :)

    The Ennis-Athenry section was refreshed rather than rebuilt so 50mph running plus the inexplicable addition of stations between Gort and Athenry which I can only attribute to TD interference. What it comes down to though is this is what DofT allocated money-wise. If you give Dick Fearn a few bn euro he'll build you a TGV - but you're not going to give him 10bn, you're giving him 50-100m and telling him get on with it. Add some IE bloody mindedness by not putting enough dynamic loops north of Ennis and no day-1 passing loop at Sixmilebridge because the Limerick signalling commissioning was not synced to the project schedule and all sorts of caveats start appearing.

    It's all very well to say we should put the 22Ks on at 75mph but the strengthening and straightening of the route required will likely mean tearing up at least some of the recent relay, plus 75mph is no good if you're stopped at a signal because there isn't a passing loop.

    Athenry could be the Limerick Junction of Co. Galway, except that (a) IE still haven't figured out how to deal with the Limerick Junction of Co. Tipperary and (b) the bridge immediately east of the station makes some improvements impossible like an east-facing bay platform.

    Here's how I could see it though - train comes down from Tuam in the AM and stops in Athenry at the north platform. Two joined sets (say 6+3) arrive from Galway to the southern platform. Tuam passengers for Dublin and Limerick transfer and the Dublin train (now split) moves off, followed by the Galway train and the Limerick train. Similarly the evening Galway-Tuam could pick up passengers coming up from Limerick or out from Dublin if platform and track occupancy could be worked out.

    However, the free riding of the WRC would have to stop and that means Galway and Mayo Co. Councils providing direct support to any further enhancements to the Ennis-Claremorris alignments. By free riding I mean not that the Wesht doesn't deserve investment, but if you have no "skin in the game" and your re-election as a councillor depended on the perception of having wasted money on a train with no passengers, you might do something about planning policies and look at ways to aid the project by donating land for park and ride or local shuttle buses to the station.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    can someone who knows comment on the feasibility of joining trains with passengers onboard...i'm not sure that this would be allowed as there is always a risk of a heavy shunt and to do this you effectively have to have two trains in the same section, which is not desirable on a single line..


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    corktina wrote: »
    can someone who knows comment on the feasibility of joining trains with passengers onboard...i'm not sure that this would be allowed as there is always a risk of a heavy shunt and to do this you effectively have to have two trains in the same section, which is not desirable on a single line..

    It is being done on Westport/Galway services and some railcars on the Ballybrophy line with no issues whatsoever in terms of safety. It was always done in the days of locos on Waterford services at Kilkenny, again with no problems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    good to know, i know it was always the practice in the Auld days but in this health and safety concious time, i wondered if it might be a problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭T Corolla


    dowlingm wrote: »
    I'd like to see numbers for north of Mullingar/Longford though. There's also the issue that the air alternative has ended up in Sligo Harbour at least once :)

    I would also like to see the number. I would also like to see double tracking between Edgeworthtown and Mullingar and not have trains waiting in Edgeworthtown for 10 mins to 30 mins awaiting a train from Dublin to pass by. I say 20 to 30 million would lay tracking between both stations and vastly improve the service and maybe bring the travel time from Sligo to Dublin by 15 mins. If the capital budget for the entire WRC was taken and spent on Limerick to Galway to bring the line up to 70-75mph speed limit it has more of a chance of survival that at 45-50mph. IR should think of quality rather than quantity. Limerick to Galway will have the highest population density and Tuam and a decent rail service in these times is not much to ask for. I could go on about carbon footprint and the envoirment but IMO take the money for all WRC and spend on Limerick to Galway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    corktina wrote: »
    can someone who knows comment on the feasibility of joining trains with passengers onboard...i'm not sure that this would be allowed as there is always a risk of a heavy shunt and to do this you effectively have to have two trains in the same section, which is not desirable on a single line..

    I believe it's still done typically on the continent quite often so not sure why it should be an issue here.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    We have an overdeveloped compo culture is why :(

    However the units of 22000 class lend themselves to such an arrangement where the older trains did not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭T Corolla


    The 22k trains are the best thing IR has invested in a while. When the green railcars used to be the main train on the Sligo line the loading were alot lower than they are now. I was on one of the green railcars in Nov 2007 on a wintry cold day and everytime we stopped at a station the cold that came into the train was noticeble. Each week I take the train to Dublin and whether it is 3 car or 6 car the train is 70-80% full at Mullingar and sometimes you have to stand until you get to Maynooth or Dublin. I will pay tribute to the green railcar as it was one of my mode of transport until I started driving but it was not for the fainhearted on a winters day


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭Tableman


    I done some rescearch on the population densities from Sligo to Limerick and was not surprised why there is no case for the WRC beyond Tuam. Here are the totals
    Sligo 19400
    Collooney 1000
    Tubbercurry 3000
    Charlestown 860
    Swinford 1500
    Kiltimagh 1100
    Clairemorris 2600
    Ballindine 800
    Miltown 1500
    Tuam 6900
    Ballyglunin 200
    Athenry 4100
    Craughwell 400
    ardrahan 400
    Gort 1800
    Ennis 24300
    Sixmilebridge 2100
    Compared to Sligo to Dublin which is rumoured to be a loss making services if it is there is no case for Sligo to Limerick
    Dublin to Sligo
    Colooney 1000
    Ballymote 3000
    Boyle 2530
    Carrick On Shannon 3200
    Dromond 510
    Longford 8900
    Edgeworthtown 250
    Mullingar 18500
    Enfield 2200
    Kilcock 4100
    Maynooth 10,715
    There is as much of a case for a railway from Waterford to Cork or Cavan to Dublin to Cavan as there is for a railway north of Tuam
    Waterford to Cork
    Dungarvan 8400
    Youghal 6500
    Midelton 10000
    Dublin to Cavan
    Cavan 7900
    Virginia 3190
    Kells 5250
    Navan 25000
    Dunboyne 5400
    These are the town and envoirn population as per 2006. I think of all the towns on WRC Tuam has the best chance. I intend going back to the web to find the elevation all the towns from Sligo to Tuam are above water level to see how many times it would be shut due to flodding as is the case with the Limerick to Ennis line currently and the Sligo to Dublin line. I understand that the population densities are one of the indicators of determing if a service is viable or not

    Claremorris only 2600? And Milltown 1500? Where did you get these figures from? Added together, they may make sense but town by town, you should not go by these figures.

    The advantage of brining it north of Tuam is to link it to the Westport line (In Claremorris). No advantage bringing it north of Claremorris


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 611 ✭✭✭T Corolla




This discussion has been closed.
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