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Garda Ombudsman Complaints

  • 05-10-2011 8:32pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭


    Was wondering does anyone have experience with the Garda Ombudsman office with regards their investigative procedures? although their supposed to be independent how would people view this for independent investigation?

    A complaint was made about a detetective Garda from one station, the garda ombudsman office sent a Sgt from a differant station to take statement and investigate complaint and a letter sent from the Gardai on garda letterheaded paper stating the garda was not in breach of any regulations.....how can the gardai investigate the gardai and the ombudsman claim it is an independent investigation?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭detective


    I agree it's absolutely ludicrous.

    Even the fact that you can make the initial complaint in the Garda station is crazy. When GSOC began they actually invited complaints on radio advertisments and such stating how independent they are and before they knew it their workload had amassed into something ridiculous so they decided to pass on the vast majority of cases to Gardai for investigation.

    Garda Superintendents are going nuts because they are doing a lot of work for GSOC now. I believe that GSOC will only investigate if the case looks like going to court or it's a serious breach of discipline.

    But sure what can be done? They obviously don't have the resources.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Larry11


    well selfrep, I did experience that and my case is still under investigation, I send them a letter about that last week and I gave them a week to reply me. I'm writing a formal letter to them to close my case as my going to court.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭shanered


    I wonder what the ratio of how many successful complaints to unsuccessful complains there have been to the ombudsman...


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭detective


    shanered wrote: »
    I wonder what the ratio of how many successful complaints to unsuccessful complains there have been to the ombudsman...
    Depends on the defintion of success? Court, discipline etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,496 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    shanered wrote: »
    I wonder what the ratio of how many successful complaints to unsuccessful complains there have been to the ombudsman...

    I suspect the very vast majority of complaints made are mischief and or spurious ones.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,261 ✭✭✭source


    GSOC have very limited resources, as such when they receive a complaint they decide on the seriousness. if the complaint is seen as not too serious they appoint a senior officer from a different district to investigate. The officer may then delegate as seen fit and the complaint is dealt with under internal discipline regulations.

    If the complaint is seen as serious they will come to the station and investigate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,117 ✭✭✭shanered


    I suspect the very vast majority of complaints made are mischief and or spurious ones.

    Your suspicions are very presumptious on belhalf of the guards.
    Most cases I would believe have some substance to them but are ignored due to the nature of the guards work and the presumptions such as above.
    Truth is power corrupts a little and it has been shown in experiments such as the prisoners one where people are put as prisoners and guards, its a popular experiment in psycological studies on human behaviour.
    Though the vast majority of cops would be of good action and conduct. There is bound to be situations and guards that may at times act unfairly and out of their remit. Thats all..
    So I just ment to ask in regards of disiplinary action or any sanctions on the offending garda how many successful complaint where made?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 104 ✭✭selfrep


    the garda ombudsman office cost the tax payer 10 million euro to run last year.....thats a lot of complaints and a lot of manpower and there have ever only been 3 convictions the three garda from waterford who beat up a man.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    I believe one third of complaints are considered to be baseless or nonsense at the first stage of assessment. They post the figures for it each year but I think it usually works out at his amount.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,451 ✭✭✭Delancey


    Ombudsmans website gives a breakdown of complaint outcomes.

    As an aside - the GSOC website gives no information on specific cases , quite unlike that of the Northern Ireland Police Ombudsman who publishes detailed descriptions of cases investigated including use of Plastic Bullets.
    In terms of ' openess ' the Garda Ombudsman is light years behind the Northern Ireland equivalent.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 Ravomix


    selfrep wrote: »
    Was wondering does anyone have experience with the Garda Ombudsman office with regards their investigative procedures? although their supposed to be independent how would people view this for independent investigation?

    A complaint was made about a detetective Garda from one station, the garda ombudsman office sent a Sgt from a differant station to take statement and investigate complaint and a letter sent from the Gardai on garda letterheaded paper stating the garda was not in breach of any regulations.....how can the gardai investigate the gardai and the ombudsman claim it is an independent investigation?

    {SNIP}

    [/MOD] Whatever makes you think it's acceptable to name people and make defamatory statements is beyond me. Rethink your posting before coming back here. [/MOD]


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭detective


    shanered wrote: »
    Truth is power corrupts a little and it has been shown in experiments such as the prisoners one where people are put as prisoners and guards, its a popular experiment in psycological studies on human behaviour

    The studies you refer to relate to the relationship between prisoners and prison officers. Policing is entirely different and no comparison can be made between the role of a policeman and that of a prison officer.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭krd


    detective wrote: »
    The studies you refer to relate to the relationship between prisoners and prison officers. Policing is entirely different and no comparison can be made between the role of a policeman and that of a prison officer.

    I would have to disagree with you. He's talking about the Stanford prison experiment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

    There are actually a few very good documentaries on it, you can find on line.

    Police are not prison guards. But they wear uniforms and have powers.

    In the Stanford experiment the guards and prisoners are selected at random. Very quickly the guards begin to act outrageously.

    What happened in Waterford, with Garda giving a beating to that guy, that shows the kind of warped psychological behaviour you see in the Stanford Prison experiment. They were sober professionals dealing with a drunk. What happened should not have happened. Even, people who attempt to make excuses for the garda involved, are falling into the same trap.

    Police shouldn't use gratuitous and excessive force, ever. You could see it in those protests in New York, where a policeman, who no reason (there's plenty of video to see it from all angles), sprays some girls in the face with pepper spray. He wasn't under threat, there wasn't a disturbance - something must've clicked inside his head.

    You don't need a prison to see the Stanford effect. You can see it in work places. Sometimes someone will be promoted to a managerial position, and they'll abuse the power to bully and humiliate the people they are meant to be managing. Enough of this behaviour - and a few more similar promotions - the entire organisation can be become a replica of the Stanford Prison.

    My own experience of being arrested (on the basis I believe of not liking da look ah me). I was made strip to my underwear, I believe for no other purpose just to humiliate me. I was even questioned about a photograph of my ex-girlfriend that was in my wallet. Again, for no other purpose but to humiliate me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Apologies for letting that post stay up overnight. I was not available.

    As always, thanks to everyone for their vigilant reporting :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭detective


    krd wrote: »
    1. Police are not prison guards. But they wear uniforms and have powers.

    2. In the Stanford experiment the guards and prisoners are selected at random. Very quickly the guards begin to act outrageously.

    3. What happened in Waterford, with Garda giving a beating to that guy, that shows the kind of warped psychological behaviour you see in the Stanford Prison experiment. They were sober professionals dealing with a drunk. What happened should not have happened. Even, people who attempt to make excuses for the garda involved, are falling into the same trap.

    4. Police shouldn't use gratuitous and excessive force, ever. You could see it in those protests in New York, where a policeman, who no reason (there's plenty of video to see it from all angles), sprays some girls in the face with pepper spray. He wasn't under threat, there wasn't a disturbance - something must've clicked inside his head.

    5. My own experience of being arrested (on the basis I believe of not liking da look ah me). I was made strip to my underwear, I believe for no other purpose just to humiliate me. I was even questioned about a photograph of my ex-girlfriend that was in my wallet. Again, for no other purpose but to humiliate me.

    1. I'm quite familiar with the experiment you refer to in particular. However I disagree with what you believe in here. Police actually have way more power than prison guards. That being because they are tasked with enforcing societies laws. Prison guards only have to maintain order within a confined space. Comparing them is like chalk and cheese IMO.

    2. Actually at first the prisoners started acting outrageously. The guards had to control this outburst. It was subsequent to this the guards began thinking of ways of controlling the prisoners who outnumbered them and they chose unruly methods. However this was 36 hours into the experiment. It's very rare that police have someone in custody for that lengthy of time.

    3. They were trying to deal with a violent and uncooperative drunk for the record and their level of force appeared fine until he was subdued. It was at this point the unthinkable happened. And you're 100% correct in saying it shouldn't have.

    4. I'm not aware of the NYPD case at all. I know not of any provocation, indiscipline or otherwise on behalf of police or protester. Police can only use violence if it is legal, proportional and necessary.

    5. I know nothing of your case so I cannot comment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 Ravomix


    detective wrote: »
    Depends on the defintion of success? Court, discipline etc.

    garda ombudsman commission costs on average 10 million euro each year.In the years 2007-2010(inclusive)they secured a measly 5 convictions out of 30 thousand complaints approx.There was around 8,800 complaints in 2010.The figures mean that your chances of a successful conclusion to a complaint about a garda are miniscule around 0.015 percent.Almost lotto odds,so for the vast majority its a pointless exercise writing to the garda ombudsman.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Ravomix wrote: »
    garda ombudsman commission costs on average 10 million euro each year.In the years 2007-2010(inclusive)they secured a measly 5 convictions out of 30 thousand complaints approx.There was around 8,800 complaints in 2010.The figures mean that your chances of a successful conclusion to a complaint about a garda are miniscule around 0.015 percent.Almost lotto odds,so for the vast majority its a pointless exercise writing to the garda ombudsman.

    The figures could also indicate that there is a massive amount of false complaints made.

    http://www.gra.cc/gardai_lose_trust.shtml


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24 Ravomix


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The figures could also indicate that there is a massive amount of false complaints made.

    http://www.gra.cc/gardai_lose_trust.shtml

    I know there would be some false complaints but that ratio surely suggests bias on their part,and i had a bad experience with them myself,cant say too much about it on here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Ravomix wrote: »
    I know there would be some false complaints but that ratio surely suggests bias on their part,and i had a bad experience with them myself,cant say too much about it on here.

    Some? I disagree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭richiek83


    A decision to prosecute or convict someone including a Garda Member rests with the DPP's office and the Courts. Convictions and Prosecutions is outisde the remit of the Garda Ombudsman's office. It is also outisde the remit of An Garda Síochána to prosecute or convict a member of the public.

    The percentage of complaints or cases that makes it to Court in any society is only a small percentage of overall complaints/ cases that have been made. It is my belief that the Garda Síochána Act, 2005 which the office was set up under allows for certain types of complaints to be investigated by the Gardaí (see link below). This part of the Act was included by oireachtas and not the office itself.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭richiek83




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Cassie77


    Hey all. Can some one please advise me. My Hubbie was falsely accused of criminal damage. He was in a different place at the time of the incident and was on CCTV. And has numerous witneasess Now the investigating gardai was told this and he told us that it would go no further. But a few months later we got a summons to appear in court. We had to hire a solicitor who later found out that the garda in question never looked at the CCTV nor did he take any statement from our witnesses. But what he did do was write up a statement himself on behalf of our witness. And signed his name. He also never mentioned to the chief superintendent that my. Hubbie was on cctv at the time. Now we have to pay our solicitor the best part of 1000 euro of which we don't have. Because of 1. A malicious allegation made by a lunatic. And 2. An negligent Garda. What my real question is is there any way we can reclaim this money cos as I said earlier we really don't have it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 20,642 CMod ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Why not ask your solicitor?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Cassie77 wrote: »
    Hey all. Can some one please advise me. My Hubbie was falsely accused of criminal damage. He was in a different place at the time of the incident and was on CCTV. And has numerous witneasess Now the investigating gardai was told this and he told us that it would go no further. But a few months later we got a summons to appear in court. We had to hire a solicitor who later found out that the garda in question never looked at the CCTV nor did he take any statement from our witnesses. But what he did do was write up a statement himself on behalf of our witness. And signed his name. He also never mentioned to the chief superintendent that my. Hubbie was on cctv at the time. Now we have to pay our solicitor the best part of 1000 euro of which we don't have. Because of 1. A malicious allegation made by a lunatic. And 2. An negligent Garda. What my real question is is there any way we can reclaim this money cos as I said earlier we really don't have it.

    If the garda did indeed fake your friends statement this will come to light at trial. You can make a complaint to the Ombudsman and sue the state. You can also bring defamation proceedings against the lunatic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Cassie77


    I was thinking that but unfortunately we dont have the funds to pay for it. The Garda in question has approached my Hubbie in work looking for our witnesses number to sort it out. It's a nightmare at the moment. We have our back to the wall and don't know what to do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Cassie77


    Have done. But I think he is waiting for the trial. Which is this week. It's a nightmare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 852 ✭✭✭CrackisWhack


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The figures could also indicate that there is a massive amount of false complaints made.

    http://www.gra.cc/gardai_lose_trust.shtml

    Personally, I have had one major bad experience with the Gardaí, which I recieved a conviction for, because I didn't have the balls to speak up in court, nor did I have the finances to hire a solicitor.

    I can well imagine plenty of other people have had similar experiences to me, to see that figure of 0.015% is laughable to be honest, and just shows how well entwined the Ombudsman, Gardaí and the district judges are.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Cassie77


    MagicSean wrote: »
    The figures could also indicate that there is a massive amount of false complaints made.

    http://www.gra.cc/gardai_lose_trust.shtml

    Personally, I have had one major bad experience with the Gardaí, which I recieved a conviction for, because I didn't have the balls to speak up in court, nor did I have the finances to hire a solicitor.

    I can well imagine plenty of other people have had similar experiences to me, to see that figure of 0.015% is laughable to be honest, and just shows how well entwined the Ombudsman, Gardaí and the district judges are.


    It's a nightmare really. We have nobody protecting us from this lunatic. We really can't trust the gardai anymore


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭blueythebear


    Cassie77 wrote: »
    It's a nightmare really. We have nobody protecting us from this lunatic. We really can't trust the gardai anymore

    If you can access this CCTV footage and have all of these witnesses lined up, you should shop around solicitors looking for a no foal, no fee arrangement.

    I'm sure in the current climate that you won't have a problem getting a solicitor to take on a criminal damage defence case for free where there is a good civil case arising out of the same matter.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9 Cassie77


    Thank u for ur reply but unfortunately. We were under the impression by the Garda that it was going no where. And that he had put down on the report no prosecution deemed necessary so we forgot about it until we got the Summons 6months later when it was too late to get the CCTV footage as its on a 6week re record. Disaster. Our solicitor gives us the impression that he is going to get it struck out because of the Garda falsifying a statement etc. but my main issue is that it should have never got this far. And I would live to know who is responsible for this. Who do we turn to. Is it the Garda ombudsman


This discussion has been closed.
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