Running Diesel cars on Vegatable Oil?

trap4 · 03-08-2005 3:56pm #1

A friend of mine told me yesterday that a friend of his showed up at his house last week driving a '92 diesel car which he was running on vegetable oil. He said he was buying the vegetable oil in Lidl and using it without having converted his engine in any way. Unfortuantely my friend didn't get any more specifics, like make of car, how long he'd been doing it, etc.

Now I thought this was pure BS when I heard it but having Googled around the net today I've found lots of websites talking about how to do it. But not knowing anything about the mechanical side of motor cars I can't tell how authentic these sites are.

So, my question is, has anyone else tried or known someone who tried this? Does it really work?

Lenny · 03-08-2005 4:09pm

Saw this on the news
you have to mix the oil with deisal, because the oil is thick because its not hot(needs to be 180 to be fully liquid) but that would burn the pipes out, so it has to be mixed more deisal than oil,
Can't give much on what type of specs of cars

air · 03-08-2005 5:13pm

The car wont last long without an inline pre heater or a two tank system.
Most diesels can be converted, VW's and Merc's are especially easy.
Conversion kits are available.
Check out the following for further information:
http://www.eilishoils.com/
http://www.greasel.com/
http://www.journeytoforever.org/

Your buddy or whatever also needs to pay a few cent per litre to Brian to keep things cosher.

Fingalian · 03-08-2005 5:16pm

Howdy,
Check out http://www.eilishoils.com/
It should answer all your questions.

StonedParadoX · 03-08-2005 5:17pm

trap4 if your really serious about converting your car to veggie oil
leave me a msg and ill give u my dads home number he owns eilish oils

he runs his car on veggie oil he owns a small business and has some converted trucks and cars with the Cork county council

kestrel · 03-08-2005 9:00pm

oh this is brilliant! i didnt know you could do that! i've been putting off learning to drive because i feel guilty about the fumes.

is vegetable oil better for the environment? if so, by how much in comparision to unleaded, leaded and diesel?

i'm so happy

Sarsfield · 03-08-2005 9:17pm

RTE TV news has just this minute done a short piece on new tax breaks for bio-fuels.

Good timing!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0803/biofuels.html

StonedParadoX · 03-08-2005 9:28pm

dude its tax free too

yeah its much better for the enviorment it doesnt harm it ( i think ) best check the website or basically not ask me cuz im not all that clued in i should be though he runs the damned thing *sigh* this sounds so fake

xonencentral · 04-08-2005 2:00am

My quick input,

Rudolf Diesel invented the diesel engine to run on vegatable oil for African country's to support crop production; SVO, (Solid Vegatable Oil) staright into the tank. Africa was warm enough not to have to heat it. They would grow 90% of their crops and 10% new rapeseed, etc to run the water pump with bio-diesel.

He was a genius of magnitude proportions.....

He was on his way to sell his engine to the UK in 1913 when he was asassinated. (He was German)

Go down to your local garage and buy a new diesel car, buy 20 bottles of crisp and dry, pour them into the tank and drive home.

Option 2: It gets cold, hmmm, must remove the wax (glycerine) from the vegatable oil (SVO) and I'm left with bio-diesel. (THats the bio-diesel production process, can be done at home with used chip fat oil), I'm not gonig to explain it here.

You can use 100% bio-deisel or mix it. In France all Diesel is 5% bio diesel at the pumps. (95% petro diesel/5%bio-diesel and there are going to 50/50)

The only thing you need to watch out for is that bio-diesel acts like a solvent, a lot of people have bad experiences when they first use it.

When you put bio-diesel into a car normally running petro-diesel, it cleans down the tank, fuel lines , etc of all contaminants and they clog the filter so you need a couple of filters for the first 3-4 weeks. A lot of people brake down after conversion but its not what they think.

Sorry for my butting in, but this is a subject I have researched for over 5 years now.

air · 04-08-2005 9:14am

How would this effect a home user that wants to filter his/her own svo and/or home brew biodiesel?
Is it a carte blanche to work away & use it without fear of repercussions from the revenue should they pulll you over?

Also xone, AFAIK S.V.O. stands for straight vegetable oil, meant to distinguish it from processed vegetable oil (i.e. biodiesel).

StonedParadoX · 04-08-2005 9:35am

"The only thing you need to watch out for is that bio-diesel acts like a solvent, a lot of people have bad experiences when they first use it.

When you put bio-diesel into a car normally running petro-diesel, it cleans down the tank, fuel lines , etc of all contaminants and they clog the filter so you need a couple of filters for the first 3-4 weeks. A lot of people brake down after conversion but its not what they think."

so right man

xonencentral · 04-08-2005 9:43am

Sorry about the typo on SVO, (It was late) and we have something at work which is close.

Yes, as long as you don't transfer ownership to anyone else of your bio-diesel, chuck it in your car and work away.

air · 04-08-2005 9:57am

http://www.revenue.ie/services/tax_info/vatrate/T01249.htm
Looks good to me

trap4 · 04-08-2005 11:53am

Wow, I can't believe my timing - I had no scoop on the Goverment announcement!

xonencentral would you be able to explain the process of producing your own bio-diesel at home? Or if its something you've been working on for 5 years perhaps you're going to starting a business around the ideas?

So, AFAICS, its a choice between -

1) SVO with an engine conversion, and
2) Biodiesel with no conversion

which means that my friend's friend is going to run into trouble during the cold of winter for sure, right?

Thanks for all the input on this topic. I'm completely new to all this and find it absolutely fascinating

air · 04-08-2005 12:40pm

You're friends will see problems much earlier than the winter, svo needs to be heated to 80-90 degrees C for any sort of modern engine.
My own preference would be for SVO with the engine conversion unless you like to change your car regularly.
Less hassle / equipment needed, all you need to do is filter it, let the engine pre heat & away you go.

pan · 04-08-2005 2:52pm

So now that tax and duty is gone

Does that only mean at the pumps or will the 1ltr of veg oil in Lidi come down in price by the VAT amount?
The last time a looked 1ltr of veg oil was about €0.80 cents

trap4 · 04-08-2005 3:07pm

Are we sure about the absense of tax and duty lads? I've just joined the Yahoo! Group for this website - http://www.veggiepower.org.uk/page701.htm - and received this by way of welcome -

"Anyone using vegoil in the UK must understand you must pay tax, not
doing so is ILLEGAL. Talking about using oil here is just as accessible
to the customs men as anyone else, you will be found out, if not here by
the smell coming from your car's exhaust pipe! The use of new oil is
frouned upon, so is mixing with white spirit."

air · 04-08-2005 3:22pm

Just as well we're not in the UK then.
Pan, I think Oil can be bought for around 60c /litre.
Eilish oils were selling 1000litres for 63c a litre, not sure if this included duty / vat or not.
The website hasnt been updated since the announcement in any case.
Perhaps SP could update us on any pricing changes that may / may not be ahead?

xonencentral · 04-08-2005 4:56pm

I sent them an email an they said that they believe its exemptions granted to to specific projects of which some have been reported on the TV of late, but they are not sure as info is light at the moment.

I heard that UK issue in Top Gear regarding use of bio-diesel but I believe in Ireland duty is only aplicable on sale or transfer ?

Maybe we should let this sleeping dog lie ?

trap4 · 05-08-2005 3:30pm

For anyone interested in coverting the straight vegetable oil (SVO) into Biodiesel I found an excellent video on a website by a guy who processes it in his own shed -

http://biolyle.com/

ednwireland · 08-08-2005 3:42pm

Is it possible to run a home oil boiler on biodiesel obviusly the prices are similiar at the moment (but i guess its not getting any cheaper and i can't afford a wood chip boiler) but would it be possible without your house smelling like a chipper ?

air · 08-08-2005 6:07pm

Yep, any home boiler can run on biodiesel.
Anything that will run on diesel / kerosene or whatever will run on biodiesel.

alias no.9 · 10-08-2005 9:45am

Before anybody runs out anc chucks straight or waste veggie oil into their car there are a number of risks;

If you have a Lucas injector pump, forget about it, the pump will seize and it will cost you up to €1000to replace.

If you have a common rail (JTD by Fiat/Alfa, HDI by Peugeot/Citroen, TDCI by ford/mazda/jaguar, DCi by Renault/Nissan, CDTI by opel/vauxhall, CDI by Mercedes, D by BMW) or Pumpe Deuse (by VW/Audi/Seat) engine, then forget about it too, it is untried and the injector nozzles will be destroyed using such a high viscosity fuel and boy are they pricy to replace.

If you have a bosch distributer type pump with electronic control, it will reek havoc with the sensors in the pump and you will get various engine management faults being registered, you'll see the engine management light come on on the dash quick enough.

If you have a bosch distributer type pump with mechanical control, you really need to preheat the oil to about 80C - 90C to reduce the viscosity enough to prevent damage, this can be done using an electrical heater running off the battery or using a heat exchanger running off the engine coolant. It is recommended to use a two tank system where you can start up on regular diesel and swich over when the engine is up to temperature ie the heat exchanger is operational.

If you have a bosch inline injector pump then you're laughing. Unfortunately, they're rarely found on anything except old mercedes. You're only concern is gelling of the fuel in winter.

air · 10-08-2005 9:58am

I think it's a bit more positive than that regarding conversions, most diesels have been successfully converted at this stage, although I accept the point about the Lucas pumps.
http://www.greasel.com/Vehicle.html

alias no.9 · 10-08-2005 12:59pm

air wrote:

I think it's a bit more positive than that regarding conversions, most diesels have been successfully converted at this stage, although I accept the point about the Lucas pumps.
http://www.greasel.com/Vehicle.html

There are many older engines that can be converted easily, their design is crude and they have a lot of margin of error. Diesel technology has advanced sciesmicly in europe over the past 7 years or so, injector designs are much more sophisticated, the US, where that site is based has not fully caught up yet. On common rail and pumpe deuse engines, the injector nozzles are extremely expensive and have very small appertures and run at very high pressures to create a very fine spray into the cylinder. If you introduce a fuel that has a much higher viscosity than the engine is designed for you will be commiting financial suicide. Elsbett in germany are the world leaders in converting diesels to run on veg, they don't even venture into the world of common rail or pumpe deuse, they stick mostly to older indirect injection engines and some older direct injection engines like the non pumpe deuse versions of VW's TDI's and renaults DTi's. Trust me on this one, I've done a lot of research and some experimentation.

air · 10-08-2005 1:49pm

Point taken, I had reads so many references to VW TDI's that I had forgotten that they don't even sell PD diesels in the states.

CJhaughey · 10-08-2005 2:56pm

The main reason is that US diesel is some of the worst quality diesel in the world, high in sulphur and very poor quality.

air · 11-08-2005 9:07am

That makes a lot of sense CJ & I have seen references to Europe's low sulphur diesel.
I guess there just isnt the demand for diesel in the US, I think I read somewhere that less than 1% of their cars use it as opposed to around 30% in Europe.
Apparently even many of their large trucks run on "gas" (petrol).
Many of them are amazed by gimicks like the prius giving 50ish mpg on long runs when something like a toyota corolla diesel can give 62ish mpg when driven gently.
(Disclaimer: the prius may be useful if you do all your driving in a city

)

Mailman · 12-08-2005 10:30am

Apart from the Merc diesels like the 190D what other models of car run reasonably well without modification on SVO.

I'm thinking simple old diesels Like the TD engine used in the Escort or the 1.4/1.5 litre block in the Citroen Saxo might be simple enough to run with SVO.

mike65 · 12-08-2005 3:48pm

Check this out

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2005/0702/farmmanagement/crops/feature.shtml

the company featured has started selling diesel at 70 cent a litre to the public according to WLR-FM this morning.

Mike.

Takeshi_Kovacs · 14-08-2005 11:29pm

has anyone got any experience with actual production of biodiesel,
i have read up a lot of it and it doesn't seem that hard to make (although the chemicals used are pretty nasty..)
more importantly , does anyone know where i can buy Methanol (one of those nasty chemicals) by the 20 litre+ at a reasonable price?

Running Diesel cars on Vegatable Oil?

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