Flat rate Single Farm Payment

Box09 · 10-08-2011 4:32pm #1

I see the Farmers Journal for tomorrow are saying a Flat rate SFP from as little as €70 a hectare on their radio ad via facebook. It'll be very interesting to read the detail tomorrow!

epff · 10-08-2011 6:02pm

Box09 wrote: »

I see the Farmers Journal for tomorrow are saying a Flat rate SFP from as little as €70 a hectare on their radio ad via facebook. It'll be very interesting to read the detail tomorrow!

your are scaring me

5live · 10-08-2011 7:38pm

I think the flat rate is proposed to begin in 2020 and the rates arent set afaik. We are sorted budget wise till 2018 i think and renegotiations begin again in about 5 years. And that sort of timetable and scare story will repeat at 5 year intervals

sh1tstirrer · 11-08-2011 10:00am

They won't bring it down to €70/h because farmers would just end up leaving them keep it and where would that leave cross compliance and all the rest of the red tape?

Username John · 11-08-2011 10:36am

5live wrote: »

I think the flat rate is proposed to begin in 2020 and the rates arent set afaik. We are sorted budget wise till 2018 i think and renegotiations begin again in about 5 years. And that sort of timetable and scare story will repeat at 5 year intervals

So is the current SFP setup set to continue until 2018?

As a new entrant doesnt really suit me if it did, but if thats the way it is, thats the way it is...

reilig · 11-08-2011 10:54am

There is a lot of detail missing from this thread so before anyone panics, have a read of today's FJ. It is relatively good news:

It is proposed that everyone will have a base payment of €70 per hectare.

There will be a "Greening Payment" worth up to €81 per hectare.

Some of the payments may be based on historic payments, but there will be caps on the amount of SFP which is bad news for those who currently receive huge SFP's (Larry Goodman will be at a loss here)

There will be be coupling scheme options - I assume this means coupling payments to the amount of stock that you have.

IFJ states "farmers with low/no eititlements win. Farmers with high entitlements may suffer big losses"

There will also be a national reserve for new (young) farmers.

I advise that you read the small print. These are proposals rather than actual approved measures.

The proposed start year is 2020. I assume that the payment system will continue the way that it is up to then??

theaceofspies · 11-08-2011 11:54am

As with most things in life the devil will be in the detail whenever that is eventually made available.

Dazzler88 · 11-08-2011 12:28pm

reilig wrote: »

Some of the payments may be based on historic payments, but there will be caps on the amount of SFP which is bad news for those who currently receive huge SFP's

So that would make more small farmers in the country.I thought they would be looking to the NZ/OZ route,less farmers bigger farms. I'm glad its favoring the small men.

coolshannagh28 · 11-08-2011 12:34pm

I look like some mug as I started farming in 04 aged 40 and missed out on entitlements , didnt qualify for national reserve ,and will have to wait until 2020 to get a single payment, Crazy !

5live · 11-08-2011 2:01pm

They are only proposals at the minute but indicate the way the powers that be want to move. I would have no problem with moving to flat rate and supplementary payments for other measures, if only to see the look on the faces of guys gambling that it was going to be coupled to animal numbers again:)

theaceofspies · 11-08-2011 2:23pm

There seems to be confusion on this thread between the CAP proposals 2013-2020 and post-2020.... very different beasts. I think that the Farmers Journal is referring to the post 2020 proposals. No point in looking that far ahead until we all get through 2013-2020 first.

reilig · 11-08-2011 2:39pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

There seems to be confusion on this thread between the CAP proposals 2013-2020 and post-2020.... very different beasts. I think that the Farmers Journal is referring to the post 2020 proposals. No point in looking that far ahead until we all get through 2013-2020 first.

Sure we have already been told that the current SFP structure is going to remain in place until at least 2015. Have there been any announcements on what will happen from 2016 to 2019 or is it likely that the current sfp system will just be rolled over???

dryan · 11-08-2011 3:01pm

reilig wrote: »

Sure we have already been told that the current SFP structure is going to remain in place until at least 2015

When and where was that announced?

If memory serves me right, it was announced that the current system will remain in place for 2013 and there is a possibility that it will be continued to 2014.

I never seen 2015 mentioned.

reilig · 11-08-2011 3:26pm

dryan wrote: »

When and where was that announced?

If memory serves me right, it was announced that the current system will remain in place for 2013 and there is a possibility that it will be continued to 2014.

I never seen 2015 mentioned.

I heard it at our last suckler discussion group meeting. I thought it had been announced?? Maybe not.

reilig · 11-08-2011 3:34pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

There seems to be confusion on this thread between the CAP proposals 2013-2020 and post-2020.... very different beasts. I think that the Farmers Journal is referring to the post 2020 proposals. No point in looking that far ahead until we all get through 2013-2020 first.

After reading through the Farmers Journal for a second time today

, The Journal is specifically referring to a leaked Document on Cap 2013 reform. They do say that the deadline for the new system to be in place is 1 January 2014. The only mention of any year beyond this is the push to have a flat rate payment by 2019. They also talk about transitional payments but do not put a timeframe on these.

Tipp Man · 11-08-2011 6:47pm

Is that 70 per hectare or 70 per acre??

Will be losing a small fortune either way by the looks of it

Birdnuts · 11-08-2011 6:48pm

Dazzler88 wrote: »

. I'm glad its favoring the small men.

Same here - though no doubt the usual suspects in the IFA will throw a hissy fit:rolleyes:

Birdnuts · 11-08-2011 6:53pm

5live wrote: »

, if only to see the look on the faces of guys gambling that it was going to be coupled to animal numbers again:)

That was never going to happen given the ongoing melt-down in government finances across the eurozone and the expansion of the EU to the East - its all austerity for at least the next decade in that regard

Tipperarymike · 11-08-2011 7:28pm

It could just me me but between the Farming Independent on Tuesday and the Journal today , it all looks as clear as mud to me.

I have high value entitlements so on Tuesday I was delighted how it seemed to indicate that things would remain as they were until end of 2018 and then go to a flat rate.

Today it is a different story mind and it looks like anyone with entitlements of 600 per and upwards is looking at losing half their payment. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the system and the historic reference years a couple of things stick out for me.

If the reform sees farmers getting anything south of 400 per ha or so, wouldn't plenty of marginal farmers in their mid 40s upwards just decide to hell with it and take the forestry options. If you can get 190 an acre for forestry and not have the Dept, cross compliance and the county council inspections to worry about it would be very tempting.

Secondly, food security and quality are becoming bigger and bigger issues in this decade, not that they weren't always mind. As is common knowledge, China, India, and plenty of the oil rich countries are buying up huge amounts of land in Africa and Australia. If the EU isn't careful lots of land will go under utilised in Europe if farmers cannot make a sustainable living on their own land.

bob charles · 11-08-2011 7:59pm

anything under 150-200 ha and people will tell them to stick it, you would probably make 200 per ha extra with all the time and effort it takes to comply. The above scenario will never happen as the reason I have stated above is every civil servant unthinkable. Politicians love to think they have control over everything so the CAP really lets them keep us caught by the balls. In my farming operation I get no SFP and in my dads he is now down to 45 euro per animal finished, so even though he has a sizable SFP if that 45 euro was to go I would think that there would be a very small rise in beef prices and we would become more efficient. the stronger prices become in farming the more insignificant the SFP will become

Birdnuts · 11-08-2011 8:08pm

Tipperarymike wrote: »

.

Secondly, food security and quality are becoming bigger and bigger issues in this decade, not that they weren't always mind. As is common knowledge, China, India, and plenty of the oil rich countries are buying up huge amounts of land in Africa and Australia. If the EU isn't careful lots of land will go under utilised in Europe if farmers cannot make a sustainable living on their own land.

I was reading something recently about alot of land being idle in places like Ukraine and Russia too. I think the main problem with world food distribution/supply is that up to a third of food produced simply rots due to poor storage. In addition up to a third of the US corn crop is going into biofuel production which is sheer madness no matter what way you look at it. I think the main reason why countries like Kuwait etc. are buying up parts of Africa is that the turmoil on currency/stock markets and growing issues with the dollar which means physical assets are viewed as a greater store of wealth

benjydagg · 11-08-2011 11:42pm

reilig wrote: »

There is a lot of detail missing from this thread so before anyone panics, have a read of today's FJ. It is relatively good news:

It is proposed that everyone will have a base payment of €70 per hectare.

There will be a "Greening Payment" worth up to €81 per hectare.

Some of the payments may be based on historic payments, but there will be caps on the amount of SFP which is bad news for those who currently receive huge SFP's (Larry Goodman will be at a loss here)

There will be be coupling scheme options - I assume this means coupling payments to the amount of stock that you have.

IFJ states "farmers with low/no eititlements win. Farmers with high entitlements may suffer big losses"

There will also be a national reserve for new (young) farmers.

I advise that you read the small print. These are proposals rather than actual approved measures.

The proposed start year is 2020. I assume that the payment system will continue the way that it is up to then??

I hope so.

sh1tstirrer · 12-08-2011 12:20am

Tipperarymike wrote: »

If the reform sees farmers getting anything south of 400 per ha or so, wouldn't plenty of marginal farmers in their mid 40s upwards just decide to hell with it and take the forestry options. If you can get 190 an acre for forestry and not have the Dept, cross compliance and the county council inspections to worry about it would be very tempting.

What would they do then look out at the trees growing every day

In 10 years time €190/acre will have a lot less buying power

alderdeer · 12-08-2011 12:48am

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

What would they do then look out at the trees growing every day In 10 years time €190/acre will have a lot less buying power

Ya have a valid point there about €190 being worth in 10 yrs but if it stays tax free to some people especially if the OH is working thats equivalent to €350/acre with no input and a nice lump of cash coming in not long after the premium ends. wouldnt it be nice to see the trees then (on the back of a truck going out the gate)

sh1tstirrer · 12-08-2011 1:08am

alderdeer wrote: »

Ya have a valid point there about €190 being worth in 10 yrs but if it stays tax free to some people especially if the OH is working thats equivalent to €350/acre with no input and a nice lump of cash coming in not long after the premium ends. wouldnt it be nice to see the trees then (on the back of a truck going out the gate)

Thats true but it takes 30 years to grow trees any man heading for 50 now will be heading for 80 before he sees the trees on the back of a truck going out the gate:( That is if he will still be able to see by then:(

flatout11 · 12-08-2011 9:30am

well i have read the article 3 times and its and except the 70 per ha bit the rest is as clear as mud!!!! no suprise there!!
why is historic payments even considered - it should be based on curent production not on what a lad had years ago
a part flat part coupled payment would be a simpler more productive measure

JohnBoy · 12-08-2011 11:10am

The way I read it was something along these lines.......

In 2014 a proportion of the payment is this €70 flat rate, then there is the greening topup, there is also a proportion that the govt can decide to divide out between a flatrate topup or into production related schemes, headage, scws, area aid, whatever they want really.
The rest of the payment will be allocated proportionally to your current historical payment.

These are purely rounded numbers to illustrate how I understand it.

So lets say in 2014 the fund is 55% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve that leaves 30% to be divided out proportionally to peoples old entitlements.

In 2015 it shifts to 60% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 25% old entitlements

In 2016 it shifts to 65% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 20% old entitlements

In 2016 it shifts to 70% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 15% old entitlements

In 2017 it shifts to 75% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 10% old entitlements

In 2018 it shifts to 80% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 5% old entitlements

In 2019 it shifts to 85% flatrate and greening, 10% production related, 5% national reserve 0% old entitlements

The basic idea being that they will phase in the changeover to a primarily area based payment.

If it is as I understand it then largely I'm in favour of it. it seems to be designed to be a more equitable system than the current one. However that's based purely on my interpretation of two confusing and incomplete articles based off a leaked draft of a proposal.

there's a hell of a long way to go on this yet.

Birdnuts · 12-08-2011 12:26pm

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

In 10 years time €190/acre will have a lot less buying power

Your a brave man to be calling what things will be like in 2021 given the world we live in now :eek:;)

theaceofspies · 12-08-2011 12:49pm

The IFA aren't too happy with the "leaked" proposals which would see a flat rate payment - see their website:
http://www.ifa.ie/IFAInformation/tabid/586/ctl/Detail/mid/2202/xmid/4632/xmfid/23/Default.aspx

But then again they would be very friendly with the larger brand of Irish farmer than the small man regardless of the fact that the small farmer pays just as much in membership fees. Stunning parallels with the failed strategies of last Fianna Fail Government in feathering the nest of their co-horts and letting the rest of this so-called Republic go swing for themselves. These are interesting times!

Min · 12-08-2011 12:59pm

The IFA should support it, over 200,000 hectares have any payments on it and this will now be eligible for payment under the new system.

I don't care if those who got larger payments gets less.

Tipp Man · 12-08-2011 3:58pm

theaceofspies wrote: »

The IFA aren't too happy with the "leaked" proposals which would see a flat rate payment - see their website:
http://www.ifa.ie/IFAInformation/tabid/586/ctl/Detail/mid/2202/xmid/4632/xmfid/23/Default.aspx

But then again they would be very friendly with the larger brand of Irish farmer than the small man regardless of the fact that the small farmer pays just as much in membership fees. Stunning parallels with the failed strategies of last Fianna Fail Government in feathering the nest of their co-horts and letting the rest of this so-called Republic go swing for themselves. These are interesting times!

I fail to see why a larger farmer shouldn't get a larger SFP than a smaller farmer - it should all be in proportion. you hardly expect a fella with 20 cattle to get as big a SFP as a fella with 200 cattle

A larger farmer will be getting more anyway with the per acre system

All this bitching and moaning about "the bigger fellas with bigger SFP" strikes me a bit of jealousy and envy to be honest. We have a good SFP but there are fellas around us getting more because they had more cattle or tillage or whatever. Good luck to them and i hope they keep as much of it as is possible going forward

Flat rate Single Farm Payment

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