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A Mere Mention of Abortion.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Sorry but this is another lazy stock answer. I'm not sure you're fully thinking through these scenarios!

    It's not a question of the friend failing to live up to their friendship duties, it's a case of ignorance of the part of the friend (no doubt fueled by pro-life rubbish) that having an abortion after a few weeks is equal to the murder of a human being.

    I mean, if it was a case that the girl had in fact murdered a small child, I don't think you'd be saying "Oh, well if her friend didn't stick by her even though she had murdered a small child then she's not a real friend and she shouldn't have to put up with her friend screaming at her".

    Again MrStuffins, if you disagree with my points, fair enough. Please stop referring to them as lazy stock answers though. I think we can disagree and still treat each other with a degree of courtesy.

    Now, to your point...nowhere have I stated that this girl should stick by her friend, or else she can't be counted as a friend. I'm afraid that you've invented that entirely. I stated that if the friends response is to hurl abuse, then she should question the friendship.

    Unless you believe that friendships can survive when one party to that union goes around abusing the other, and referring to him/her as a murderer? I'm not sure I'd share your equanimity were one of my friends to refer to me in such a manner.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    I didn't see this edit until now.

    My disagreeing with the point is not the reason I think it's lazy. It's a stock answer. You aven't fully thought through the scenario IMO.

    I have: one friend thinks the other is a murderer and refers to her as such. Not exactly sure how the relationship can proceed beyond that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    the posters here who say they would be supportive or not judge, I wonder if there is some judgement going on internally.

    I say this because people who say they wouldn't judge another always feel they have to qualify it with 'I wouldn't have an abortion myself but...' or they say they wouldn't judge because 'It's none of my business' (rather than I wouldn't judge because I don't believe it's wrong)


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Back on topic, I used to be very anti-abortion. I don't know if that's the same as pro life because I always believed in a rape victim being able to secure a safe, legal abortion in Ireland and that the failure to legislate on the X case was appalling. But as I've gotten older I guess I've realised life isn't always black and white.

    Some people don't want to have children and its virtually impossible for a single women to have her tubes tied in Ireland so even the most assiduous users of contraception can be caught out. Married couples in Ireland can't give their children up for adoption so what does a married couple who has an unwanted pregnancy do? Hold on and hope they'll come around after the birth? What about a family with a child with severe illness or special needs where another child is impossible to care for?

    I'm pregnant myself and i didn't realise how worried I was about everything being okay with my baby until I had my 20 week anomaly scan. If I was a public patient that is ALL the scans I would have had to that point (I am private so luckily have had a few scans along the way). So a major anomaly with the brain etc, rendering the fetus unviable, would only have been picked up at 20 weeks and then we'd have had to decide what to do. Then we'd have had to make a decision and if we wanted to terminate we'd have to go abroad, necessitating time and money. We'd probably have had to tell our workplaces we needed force majeur leave or sick leave, and then probably wouldn't be able to tell anyone about it because the image people have of abortion (i had it myself) is of a feckless couple or woman who couldn't be arsed using a condom. I'd have had to have a serious medical procedure abroad.

    I find pro-life people are usually pro life until the baby comes. Are Youth Defence going to raise an unwanted child for a women? Going to give her financial, emotional and practical support? I don't think so, once the baby is here they don't give a sh!t about it and I'd wager a lot of those groups are the same.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 16,186 ✭✭✭✭Maple


    Personally, I think pro-lifers are scum and have eradicated them from my circle of friends. Someone asked me to sign a pro-life petition on the street the other day and the only thing that stopped me from spitting in his face was that I wasn't alone.
    NW, dial it back. I wholly appreciate this is an emotive topic but there no need for such vehemence, advocating spitting in anyone's face just isn't acceptable.

    Maple


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,819 ✭✭✭✭g'em


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    I have met many women who for various reasons had abortions. I can't say the knowledge ever changed my view of them. I personally wouldn't have an abortion but I support the right to choose and it is not my place to judge.
    I know of a couple of women who have had abortions and after finding out I have to say it did change my opinion of them - I realised how brave and strong they are and I have nothing but admiration for making what must be one of the most difficult choices a woman could ever go through. My friends choices are their own, my views on abortion have nothing to do with it really (although as it happens I think the right decisions were made all round).

    I can see why some posters are saying that friendship can at times be dependent on that friends' actions but where my absolute best and closest friends are concerned, the ones I would trust with my life and me theirs, I don't think there's much that could make me cut them out of my life. I may not always agree with them, but I love them unconditionally.
    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Her reaction was incredible! This girl who had been her best mate since they were kids flipped out. She NEVER asked about the circumstances, she didn't care about her mate, it was like a switch was flipped and she started screaming calling her "A murdering bitch" etc. it was like she was pre-programmed to say "Murder" when she heard the word "Abortion". They actually never spoke again.

    Some people will let their pre-conceived ideas about a certain subject ruin lifelong relationships! it's terrible :(
    I read an amazing book a while ago that talked about how our reactions to other people are a mirror to how we see ourselves. While I have every sympathy for your friend and the horrible dilemma she found herself in, the reaction her friend has had genuinely says more about her and her own intolerance, ignorance and lack of compassion. It may take a while but she'll realise she's most likely better off.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭KittyeeTrix


    Thats her opinion.. I agree with it to an extent. But I would never spit in someones face. Im a huge believer in the right to free speech, but thats not what im asking here. Im not asking people for that, I'm asking what you would say if someone told you they'd had one. Would that change your opinion of them, or of abortion?

    My opinion of someone who had an abortion would depend on the circumstances for the abortion in the first place.

    Personally I think they should be made legal in this country but at the same time would not be in favour of someone who would not take the necessary precautions to prevent pregnancy as much as they could in the first case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 236 ✭✭jinxremoving


    I actually cant believe someone would be so insensitive to call their 'friend' a murderer if they lost a baby, regardless of whether or not she might have considered an abortion.

    I also cant get my head around people saying things like abortion is only ok if the woman has been raped, or its ok but it shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. to me, these seem needlessly moralising and definitely are too simplistic. Every situation is different and I personally believe every woman has the right to choose and should be free from judgements of 1- people who don't know anything about her situation and 2 - people who do know the situation and still think it there place to comment + think worse of them


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭KittyeeTrix


    Kooli wrote: »
    the posters here who say they would be supportive or not judge, I wonder if there is some judgement going on internally.

    I say this because people who say they wouldn't judge another always feel they have to qualify it with 'I wouldn't have an abortion myself but...' or they say they wouldn't judge because 'It's none of my business' (rather than I wouldn't judge because I don't believe it's wrong)


    I would be one of those people who would say 'I wouldn't have an abortion myself but...

    This is because I've had 4 children but have never found myself in the position of needing or wanting an abortion. I've always had my partner/support and my health has never been a question.

    That is why I'd answer that way.............I don't know if the tables were turned and I felt the need for an abortion would it still necessarily be the answer for me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    I don't know if I'd have the emotional strength myself to go through with it, and if I did manage to do it, it would bother me for the rest of my life I think, and it's definitely not something I would take lightly. That said, I don't think it's something any woman takes lightly, and it certainly wouldn't affect my opinion of someone if they told me they'd had an abortion. It must be such an incredibly traumatising experience, and I would never judge someone who went through with it, and it's offensive to me that there are women who are demonised and villified for making such a heartbreaking decision. I completely support a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body without being treated as some sort of criminal. The body, after all, is probably one of the only things we really have to ourselves completely, and taking away someone's freedom to what they like with their own body is violative and an invasion of privacy, in my opinion.


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  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 11,362 ✭✭✭✭Scarinae


    I have a friend who considered, but didn't have an abortion. She lost the baby at 13 weeks, and one of her friends who knew that she had considered it and is very pro life told her it was karma, and that she deserved to loose it, and that she and her bf were murderers.
    :eek: What a truly awful thing to say!
    I'm just wondering, what would you say if you met someone who openly told you she had an abortion because she wasn't capable of raising a child and didn't want to give up her job, education, etc? Would you think she was a horrible person? Or would you be able to look past her actions and not judge her on it?
    I probably wouldn't say anything, I'd probably give them a hug. I wouldn't think they were a horrible person and I wouldn't judge them, it's a really difficult thing to go through especially if you're keeping it to yourself because you're anticipating hysterical reactions from people.

    One of my friends here in London had an abortion a year ago. I said that I'd go with her, but the appointment was on a day I absolutely had to be in work so another friend went with her instead. I saw firsthand how hard it was for her to make that decision, and I know she still thinks about it sometimes - a few months ago she mentioned to me that it was around the time she would have given birth if she'd kept the baby - but it was ultimately her decision and it's nobody else's business really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭seenitall


    I would be one of those people who would say 'I wouldn't have an abortion myself but...

    This is because I've had 4 children but have never found myself in the position of needing or wanting an abortion. I've always had my partner/support and my health has never been a question.

    That is why I'd answer that way.............I don't know if the tables were turned and I felt the need for an abortion would it still necessarily be the answer for me.

    Is that you, fluffyorganic??

    (Apologies if mistaken, just looking at the location and the no. of children... :D)

    Mods changing usernames does mess with my head. :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,239 ✭✭✭KittyeeTrix


    seenitall wrote: »
    Is that you, fluffyorganic??

    (Apologies if mistaken, just looking at the location and the no. of children... :D)

    Mods changing usernames does mess with my head. :(

    Yeah, it's me......We got a kitten last August so I'm now crazy cat lady....:D

    back on topic.....to answer the OP's question. I''ve known girls who've had abortions and no, it hasn't changed my opinion of them one bit!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭tiny_penguin


    I know people who have had abortions and I have not judged them at all for their decisions. Regardless of my own feelings on the matter its their choice and I dont think that people make the decision lightly.

    However I worked with one girl who told us she had had 3 abortions - and she still was not careful with contraception. She would joke about forgetting to take her pill and said she did not like condoms. While I did not judge her decision to have abortions I did judge her stupidity and lifestyle choices that put her in those situations. Though she was not someone I knew well or would class a friend so I never made her aware of this. Only urged her to be a little more careful for her own sake.

    I would hope that I don't find myself in the situation where having an abortion is something that needs to be considered - at this stage in my life I would hope I could handle a crisis pregnancy and look after a child and obviously I hope I do not find myself pregnant as a result of rape. However I do not know how I would react to a crisis pregnancy - or how my circumstances might change in the future that would make me unable to look after a child. I fully believe you dont truly know what you would do unless you are in the situation. But like I said, what I would or would not do is irrelevent to my non judgement of others.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    I am very distressed by abortion and completely against it.

    I do have people in my life that have had abortions and it doesn't affect how much I love them.

    However I would not hold someone's hand as they went through the process of an abortion. Some people might judge me for that but I would be a hypocrite if I did.

    I would be willing to hold their hand afterwards, and love them and support them. But I could never be in favour of what they had done because it would go against my very nature.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I fully believe you dont truly know what you would do unless you are in the situation. But like I said, what I would or would not do is irrelevent to my non judgement of others.
    This. Personally I'd not judge either pro life or pro choice people. Life is too short. If I have an overly vehement reaction to someone's opinions I usually step back and ask myself why, because in me is where I'll usually find the answer.

    Personally? As TP pointed out opinions such as they are tend to be upset when actually faced with reality, so any opinion I might have at the moment is conjecture, a philosophy if you will. However(and again personally) outside of the yays or nays I do take issue where the potential father is not consulted on the matter, indeed considered by some extraneous to the proceedings(obviously outside abuse/rape type scenarios). A friend of a friends partner had an abortion and he only found out after the fact about the pregnancy and subsequent termination. They stayed together(though to be frank why sprang to mind). Then around two years later she fell pregnant again and this time decided to go to term and keep the child and he was left in no confusion that she expected him to provide for her and the child. Again no consultation on the matter. In that case and I agree it is somewhat of an extreme, my response would be two words involving sex and travel. Her body and right to do with it as she pleased? Maybe even certainly, but don't expect me to pay for or guilt me into any unilateral decisions you may make on behalf of it. That dog won't hunt. Some sort of equivalence might be a guy who unilaterally decides to get the snip and doesn't tell his partner. After all it's his body to do with as he pleases right? Eh no, sod off mate.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    My thinking on this issue has evolved over the years - I started off in my teens as utterly pro-life (thanks to seeing the horrific pictures that the pro-life movement like to show).

    Then the X- Case came along when I was 16 and Ireland had a suicidal child pregnant as a result of being raped by a pedophile challenge the issue and some people changed their view to "as long as its to save the life of the mother or if the fetus was unviable" I agreed with that view then.

    however, as more and more of my friends faced crisis pregnancies, some with no support from family, or a partner, or maybe through no fault of their own contraception failed and I saw that it is not as black and white as I had initially thought, and saw that there are many reasons for a woman choosing to make such a difficult decision.

    Then a few months ago on the thread "your right to an abortion, NomdePlume posted this:
    This isn't about the right to life, then. It's not about the foetus at all; it's about the woman, her level of fault, and her comeuppance.

    If it's your fault that you got pregnant, you must endure the pregnancy or be termed a murderer. You are not allowed off the hook.

    If it's not your fault, because you were raped, you are entitled to an abortion. We won't term you a murderer because, well, you weren't a slut.
    In other words, we never really considered it murder; we just use that word to shame the girls we don't like.

    So this shaped my thinking even more on the issue. I believe now that the circumstances of a crisis pregnancy are irrelevant. An unwanted pregnancy is an unwanted pregnancy, irrespective of how the baby was concieved.

    I have never been in the situation where I was facing a crisis pregnancy. My first positive test was one that was long awaited and the happiest news for my partner and I.

    However, I do believe that counselling services should be provided in tandem with any abortions performed and I believe that early scans get re-introduced into our maternity units - this 20+ weeks for a first scan is ludicrous - I was visibly pregnant and baby moving at that stage.

    I could not judge a friend for making that decision. To me, friendship is accepting a person unjudgementally.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Wouldnt affect my view of someone at all, I know one person who had an abortion, I dont know the exact details just that she had one, I didnt ask as its absolutely none of my business and doesnt affect my friendship with her in the slightest, its not an easy choice to make no matter what the situation I'd imagine. life isnt always as black and white as "oh well you should've used protection" no contraceptive is 100%, my sister was on the pill when she got pregnant, condoms break etc. if someone has taken precautions to avoid a pregnancy and get pregnant long before they ever plan having a child or want to have them at all and decide to have an abortion then thats their choice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    Think it should be legal.
    Wouldn't judge anyone for having one.
    Wouldn't tolerate judgement from others if I had one.

    lazygal wrote: »
    I find pro-life people are usually pro life until the baby comes. Are Youth Defence going to raise an unwanted child for a women? Going to give her financial, emotional and practical support? I don't think so, once the baby is here they don't give a sh!t about it and I'd wager a lot of those groups are the same.

    This is something I've noticed recently.
    A lot of the time it's about controlling the woman and nothing else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    bronte wrote: »
    This is something I've noticed recently.
    A lot of the time it's about controlling the woman and nothing else.

    You may well be right here. But I would gladly, gladly take the unwanted child of anyone who felt they could not raise it. I sincerely mean that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    You may well be right here. But I would gladly, gladly take the unwanted child of anyone who felt they could not raise it. I sincerely mean that.

    I believe you. Not saying for a second that all pro-lifers are like that.
    Just that there's an element of control that drives many of them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭seenitall


    I am very distressed by abortion and completely against it.

    I do have people in my life that have had abortions and it doesn't affect how much I love them.

    However I would not hold someone's hand as they went through the process of an abortion. Some people might judge me for that but I would be a hypocrite if I did.

    I would be willing to hold their hand afterwards, and love them and support them. But I could never be in favour of what they had done because it would go against my very nature.

    As a pro-choicer, I admire this POV so much, as it is staying true to one's principles while also retaining care and acceptance of vulnerable people. IMO.

    I am very pro-choice, but for me there are differences as to the timing of the termination. I wouldn't be too happy with people having late-term abortions - I think that aspect has been mentioned on-thread already.

    Having the option of that choice is the main thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    It's clearly about more than raising a child - as an adoptee I can't stand seeing the whole adoption/"just" give the child up line being trotted out as the panacea to unwanted pregnancy like there is no life-long repercussions there, for mother or child...

    As to the abortion issue - I have friends who have had the MAP, who have had abortions and I have an IUD - seems a rather arbitrary line between them as far as I can see so I certainly wouldn't judge.

    I do, however, judge a political system/country/legal system that relies on being able to export the "issue" en masse to it's nearest neighbour so some can piously & hypocritically claim moral supremacy on these shores.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Giselle


    I am very distressed by abortion and completely against it.

    I do have people in my life that have had abortions and it doesn't affect how much I love them.

    However I would not hold someone's hand as they went through the process of an abortion. Some people might judge me for that but I would be a hypocrite if I did.

    I would be willing to hold their hand afterwards, and love them and support them. But I could never be in favour of what they had done because it would go against my very nature.

    Thank you for that post neuro-praxis, because it articulates better than I could how I feel about the issue.

    I have two people I'm close to who have had abortions, and their choices are theirs to make, not for me to utter judgement on.

    I'm loathe to use the words Pro-life. conjuring up as it they do a religious fanatic that cares nothing for context or compassion. And I don't believe anyone is Pro-abortion (everyone should have one!) per se. I think the majority of abortions are carried out after agonising soul searching on behalf of the parents. At least, I hope they are.

    As pregnancy progresses the prospect of abortion becomes progressively more horrific in my eyes, but most horrific of all is (multiple) abortion as contraception. In the western world, repeated abortions, where there is safe reliable contraception, should not exist.

    I would never respond to a relevation of a friend having an abortion with anything other than compassion, but I know its a choice that is personally unacceptable to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    It's clearly about more than raising a child - as an adoptee I can't stand seeing the whole adoption/"just" give the child up line being trotted out as the panacea to unwanted pregnancy like there is no life-long repercussions there, for mother or child...

    I understand what you're saying, but I am not saying "just give up the child" to anyone. I am saying, should you wish to go through with the pregnancy, I will support you as far as and including to the point of actually raising the child. You can probably agree that it is better that you have lived (with repercussions) and been raised by adoptive parents, than that you died. You have certainly been a gift to countless people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    It's clearly about more than raising a child - as an adoptee I can't stand seeing the whole adoption/"just" give the child up line being trotted out as the panacea to unwanted pregnancy like there is no life-long repercussions there, for mother or child...

    Ugh...this too.
    I'm also adopted and truly hate when adoption is the "answer" to the situation. Anyone who caught the recent Joe Duffy show should have an idea of what can happen. A woman has the right to move on with her life after giving a child up for adoption, but that doesn't stop some people still persisting in tracking her down. I was shocked at the attitudes of some of the adopted people.
    Why should the woman have to face further unwanted emotional turmoil years after the event?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    I do, however, judge a political system/country/legal system that relies on being able to export the "issue" en masse to it's nearest neighbour so some can piously & hypocritically claim moral supremacy on these shores.

    This is a very important point too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I understand what you're saying, but I am not saying "just give up the child" to anyone. I am saying, should you wish to go through with the pregnancy, I will support you as far as and including to the point of actually raising the child. You can probably agree that it is better that you have lived (with repercussions) and been raised by adoptive parents, than that you died.

    I don't agree - in that I can't see past it being a really crappy argument made from a purely selfish view point under the guise of being all caring. Let's face it, I'd be none the wiser had I never existed & neither would anyone else so it's actually a moot argument. Having children and being an unwanted child can and does ruin peoples lives and cause untold misery and hurt - within a specific time-frame I think there should be the right to attend counselling and, if that's still the path they wish to take, abortion.

    It's not something I think I could ever do - medical emergency aside - but I can certainly understand and see occasions where not being pregnant or not having children is a much more rational choice than life at all costs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭chirogirl


    I would never judge any woman for opting to have an abortion. Its the toughest decision ever to make. I do have friends that have had them due to differing circumstances. Though one friend has told me that she did regret it and still does.

    When I found out I was pregnant, I knew I'd end up being a single parent (not by choice) and the thought of a termination did cross my mind. But I realised that it wasn't the end of the world for me and I now have a 6 month old that I couldn't imagine being without, she's the world to me.

    However, If I was 10-20 years younger I may have opted for a termination.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    Personally, I think pro-lifers are scum and have eradicated them from my circle of friends. Someone asked me to sign a pro-life petition on the street the other day and the only thing that stopped me from spitting in his face was that I wasn't alone.

    I think this says a lot about you as a person to be honest. Eradicating people or "scum" as you put it because they have a different opinion or spitting in peoples faces is clearly the trait of an extremist. Quite frankly you did those people a favour.

    Whatever you views on this subject be respectful of other views.


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