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Shooting Incident in Newport, Co Tipp

  • 31-01-2012 9:32am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭d3exile


    Taken from RTE.ie

    Ombudsman to probe Tipperary death
    Updated: 08:27, Tuesday, 31 January 2012

    A man died from a gunshot wound to the head from one of two weapons he was found to be carrying after he was stopped by a Garda patrol in Co Tipperary last night.


    Garda Ombudsman to probe Co Tipperary incident
    A man died from a gunshot wound to the head from one of two weapons he was found to be carrying after he was stopped by a routine Garda patrol in north Co Tipperary last night.
    Gardai say the man was signalled to stop at Newport shortly after 7.30pm.
    He produced a shotgun and a struggle ensued between him and the gardaí during which shots were fired.
    The gardaí managed to wrestle the firearm from him but he produced a second gun and another shot was fired which wounded him fatally in the head.
    The two gardaí were unarmed.
    The Garda Ombudsman is to carry out an investigation into the incident.
    A spokesperson for the Garda Ombudsman said that all of the man's next of kin have not been informed yet.
    He said a man in his mid-forties was driving a van erratically so the two gardaí pulled him over.
    The man spoke to the gardaí for "some time" before he produced a gun which he pointed at the Gardaí and then "discharged a number of rounds".
    The body is still at the scene and investigating officers remained at the scene over night.
    The Thurlus - Annacotty Road is closed and will remain closed for the most part of the day.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭d3exile


    Tragic for the man involved, and no doubt traumatic for the two Guards at scene, this could have had a very different ending


  • Registered Users Posts: 979 ✭✭✭POGAN


    awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less


  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭d3exile


    POGAN wrote: »
    awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less

    I agree, although this incident seems to have been a relatively unexpected one, sounds like the lads wouldn't have called for an armed unit initially, and once they had they wouldn't have got one there on time... although I do agree there should be more armed units, like the RSU on a 3 relief and stop disarming the D/O's!


  • Registered Users Posts: 274 ✭✭da_hambo


    d3exile wrote: »
    POGAN wrote: »
    awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less

    I agree, although this incident seems to have been a relatively unexpected one, sounds like the lads wouldn't have called for an armed unit initially, and once they had they wouldn't have got one there on time... although I do agree there should be more armed units, like the RSU on a 3 relief and stop disarming the D/O's!

    Definite Scott medals in future I think.They were very lucky we could have been looking at a completely different headline this morning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,451 ✭✭✭CharlieCroker


    I'd rather it never happened than be given a Scott medal for it!

    Best of luck to the members involved and here's hoping they get any support they need


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    POGAN wrote: »
    awful incident and garda management wants to cut armed D/Os i think we need more armed units not less

    I don't see the connection or how more armed officers could prevent this type of almost "random" incident.

    Fair play to the two members involved in doing their job and putting their own lives at risk in a highly dangerous situation and being witness to the awful turn of events.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭WilcoOut


    BrianD wrote: »
    I don't see the connection or how more armed officers could prevent this type of almost "random" incident.

    Fair play to the two members involved in doing their job and putting their own lives at risk in a highly dangerous situation and being witness to the awful turn of events.

    our officers dhould be equiped to deal with ANY type of 'random' incident

    or atleast have backup available quickly when this type of 'random' incident occurs

    remember, the current system in place only works until it doesnt

    and when it doesnt work, lives will be lost


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭pah


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mystery-surrounds-fatal-shooting-3005786.html
    Mystery surrounds fatal shooting

    A GARDA officer grabbed a shotgun while his female sergeant pepper sprayed their assailant as they bravely evaded a gun attack from a suspected drink driver.
    The Irish Independent has learned that after disarming the gunman of a shotgun, Garda Gerry Brassil and Sergeant Deborah Marsh raced for cover as Anthony McMahon (44) -- who was partially blinded from the spray -- shot wildly at them with a second gun in Newport, Co Tipperary, on Monday night.
    An investigation by the Garda Siochana Ombudsman Commission continued last night after Mr McMahon -- a keen hunter -- took his own life during a horrific ordeal which included shots being fired at the two officers at point-blank range.
    Investigators are still mystified as to why the self-employed taxi driver opened fire -- but there has been widespread praise for the response of the two unarmed officers, who escaped without serious physical injuries.
    Newport residents and colleagues of Gda Brassil and Sgt Marsh fear there could have been more than one fatality had it not been for their quick actions.
    Mr McMahon -- who also worked as a carpet fitter -- was signalled to stop by gardai as he approached Newport on the Thurles road after they received a report about a motorist driving erratically.
    Gda Brassil approached the van and the Irish Independent has learned that Mr McMahon -- who was the sole occupant of the vehicle -- grabbed a double- barrelled shotgun and pointed it directly at the officer, who had spotted it and asked whether it was loaded.
    The garda managed to push the barrel of the gun away from his head as a shot was discharged.
    A struggle then took place as Gda Brassil attempted to disarm Mr McMahon. It is understood that, at one stage, Gda Brassil -- a respected officer who has been based in Newport for 15 years -- held his finger against the trigger to prevent another gunshot.
    Sgt Marsh raced to her colleague's aid and a canister of pepper spray was sprayed at Mr McMahon's face but he refused to give up the weapon.
    A second gunshot was discharged through the roof of the van as the struggle continued before Gda Brassil -- who was also struck in the face with the shotgun -- gained control of the weapon.
    Mr McMahon then produced a high-powered rifle and pointed it towards Sgt Marsh. Another shot was discharged, but the sergeant escaped injury.
    Windscreen
    The officers sprinted for cover. Gda Brassil crouched behind the front of the garda car as Mr McMahon opened fire with the rifle and shot blindly at the officers from the driver's seat of the van. The patrol car was hit at least four times, with one shot passing through the back and front windscreen.
    He then discharged a final shot, wounding himself fatally in the head.
    Mr McMahon is originally from the Janesboro area of Limerick city and comes from a well-respected family.
    Until last year, he lived in the Limerick city suburbs at Monaleen Park and would socialise at the Monaleen GAA club. Last year he moved to a bungalow in a rural area outside the Tipperary village of Rearcross.
    It is understood that he has not worked as a taxi driver following an accident involving his car over Christmas -- it has since been off the road.
    Gun cartridges were found at the house in Rearcross by gardai as part of follow-up investigations.
    The two guns were licensed to Mr McMahon who was permitted to hold up to four guns. It has not yet been established why Mr McMahon had the weapons in his van with him.



    This just goes to show that ANYTHING can happen, based on this article the members were even luckier than was originally thought. Good reactions from the members probably saved both their lives.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    I'm impressed with the use of the pepperspray. It's still relatively new and easy to forget about in an intense situation like this. The use of it on this occasion could very well have saved their lives by preventing him from taking proper aim.


  • Registered Users Posts: 643 ✭✭✭maryk123


    something about this storey doesnt sit - there are big rumours flying around about what really happened with him and a son of a guard in Limerick. He is from a well respected family never in trouble and he had licence for guns which he seemingly has for years. now you dont get a licence if they thing you are not able.
    somthing not right here.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭d3exile


    maryk123 wrote: »
    something about this storey doesnt sit - there are big rumours flying around about what really happened with him and a son of a guard in Limerick. He is from a well respected family never in trouble and he had licence for guns which he seemingly has for years. now you dont get a licence if they thing you are not able.
    somthing not right here.

    Yeah and Elvis shot JFK...

    People go off their rocker sometimes, hard to prevent, even harder to predict, abbeylara was a legally held firearm as well, as was that taxi driver that went on the rampage in the UK not so long ago... People with licences can have break downs (which I'm assuming this was) as much as people without licences.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 414 ✭✭Bosh


    tinfoil-hat1.jpg

    :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    WilcoOut wrote: »
    our officers dhould be equiped to deal with ANY type of 'random' incident

    or atleast have backup available quickly when this type of 'random' incident occurs

    remember, the current system in place only works until it doesnt

    and when it doesnt work, lives will be lost

    Yes but the only real solution is to arm the entire force because even if you doubled or trebled the availability of armed response units, the incident at Newport would have had the same outcome. It would appear from reports that it happened in minutes.

    I wouldn't be in favour of general arming of the Gardai and I don't think an incident like this warrants it. All Gardai enter service and perform their duty in this knowledge (obviously not the specialist ones).

    Even with the Daily Mail headlining that there 200.000 legally held fire arms the number of incidents like this are rare. Thankfully so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    BrianD wrote: »
    Yes but the only real solution is to arm the entire force because even if you doubled or trebled the availability of armed response units, the incident at Newport would have had the same outcome. It would appear from reports that it happened in minutes.

    I wouldn't be in favour of general arming of the Gardai and I don't think an incident like this warrants it. All Gardai enter service and perform their duty in this knowledge (obviously not the specialist ones).

    Even with the Daily Mail headlining that there 200.000 legally held fire arms the number of incidents like this are rare. Thankfully so.

    Most Gardaí would have entered with the knowledge that they would have some protections. Numbers are being cut as well as stations being closed. Vehicles are in short supply and there is talk of disarming detectives. Add that to the pitiful sentences being given to Garda killers and assaulters and the case for arming the Gardaí is looking increasingly stronger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Most Gardaí would have entered with the knowledge that they would have some protections. Numbers are being cut as well as stations being closed. Vehicles are in short supply and there is talk of disarming detectives. Add that to the pitiful sentences being given to Garda killers and assaulters and the case for arming the Gardaí is looking increasingly stronger.

    I think the case for proper sentencing is stronger than the case for arming Gardai, and the general public would love to see harsh sentences not just for crimes against Gardai, but for all violent crime.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,931 Mod ✭✭✭✭Turner


    There will come a time when unarmed Gardai refuse to respond to serious incidents because they are not sufficiently equipped and protected.

    It should be happening at the moment but members keep on doing their job and responding to dangerous calls despite cutback after cutback and decreasing levels of safety.

    The idea of an unarmed uniformed police force in this age is laughable amongst nearly every police force in the world.

    When foreign police are told we are not armed they just cannot comprehend it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭pah


    Couldnt agree more Turner, the stereotype of the guard on his bicycle riding through the village is a long time gone but people seem adamant to hang onto it for some reason. They think that members carrying sidearms would be to intimidating, christ some even thought the stab vests were too parimilatery looking.

    Sh|t cars
    Sh|t stations
    Sh|t uniforms
    Sh|t equipment
    Sh|t logistics
    Sh|t utilisation of resources


    Until management is no longer full of fukking dinosaurs that cant think outside a matchbox things are not going to change.


    We should have smart & practical outdoor uniforms, more members trained with tazers etc i could go on forever but i'm already way off topic, sorry :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    MagicSean wrote: »
    Most Gardaí would have entered with the knowledge that they would have some protections. Numbers are being cut as well as stations being closed. Vehicles are in short supply and there is talk of disarming detectives. Add that to the pitiful sentences being given to Garda killers and assaulters and the case for arming the Gardaí is looking increasingly stronger.

    Station closures are not an issue - we seem to have too many. Police:population ratio is broadly the same as the UK. The reductions on staffing aren't going to reduce those ratios substantially.

    I do agree with you that sentences aren't harsh enough.

    This random incident is still no grounds for arming the Gardai. Guns won't reopen stations, drive cars or multiply cops on the beat. Can't see how arming the gardai will change anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭d3exile


    pah wrote: »
    Couldnt agree more Turner, the stereotype of the guard on his bicycle riding through the village is a long time gone but people seem adamant to hang onto it for some reason. They think that members carrying sidearms would be to intimidating, christ some even thought the stab vests were too parimilatery looking.

    Sh|t cars
    Sh|t stations
    Sh|t uniforms
    Sh|t equipment
    Sh|t logistics
    Sh|t utilisation of resources


    Until management is no longer full of fukking dinosaurs that cant think outside a matchbox things are not going to change.


    We should have smart & practical outdoor uniforms, more members trained with tazers etc i could go on forever but i'm already way off topic, sorry :o


    +1

    Shocking to think the leaps forward the UK forces have gone through in the last 10years in terms of uniform, equipment, armed support, same thing if you look at any continental EU forces, they are all equipped for the job at hand, Gardai will forever make do, feck sake tetra style system was standard in the UK in the 90s and gougers could still listen to Garda radios via a VHF radio up until a few years ago...


    Back on topic tho and again I'll say I wouldn't agree with arming rank and file, although definitely in this instance it would have made a huge difference to the Gardai at scene, but then the papers would have a completely different story today if the Gardai shot him, whether he was armed or not... And the likes of maryk123 above would be having a field day....


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,226 ✭✭✭angelfire9


    d3exile wrote: »


    Back on topic tho and again I'll say I wouldn't agree with arming rank and file, although definitely in this instance it would have made a huge difference to the Gardai at scene, but then the papers would have a completely different story today if the Gardai shot him, whether he was armed or not... And the likes of maryk123 above would be having a field day....

    The only difference arming yesterday's members would have made was that the deceased would have died faster at Garda hands and this morning we'd be looking at the Newport incident as the Abbeylara of 2012 :(
    I would be vehemently against arming the rank and file members of AGS we could do with more ERU units nationwide but even if they had had an ERU in Newport the likelihood is that they wouldn't have been deployed to deal with an "erratic driver"

    The members involved in Newport deserve great praise and will probably be awarded Scott Medals which they are entitled to IMHO
    They will most likely receive counselling for the trauma this incident will have caused, imagine how much more traumatic it would be for them if the deceased had died at their hands?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    BrianD wrote: »
    This random incident is still no grounds for arming the Gardai. Guns won't reopen stations, drive cars or multiply cops on the beat. Can't see how arming the gardai will change anything.

    Lets face it when the incident ended he had the upper hand he had a long range weapon and the Garda were behind a car with one can of pepper spray.

    Help was several minutes away.

    This is not acceptable, members should not be in that position. If they were armed they would not be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭WilcoOut


    angelfire9 wrote: »


    we could do with more ERU units nationwide

    every unit in every district (especially dublin) should have an ERU unit assigned to them

    the current set up is a joke


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭pah


    At least one shot out of the four that hit the patrol car traveled through rear and front windscreens of the vehicle!

    The man took his own life in the end, which is sad but with two loaded weapons in the car perhaps that was his intention from the start.

    Somebody mentioned the trauma of living with having possibly killed the man if the members were armed. I'd rather live with that the rest of my life than have my wife and my 4 kids under 10 live with the trauma of losing their father, so that is a BS argument in my book.

    "Brave member gives his life to protect others"? An honest headline no doubt if it had happened this way. A more truthful one would be "Brave member gives his life as he was ill-equipped to protect and defend himself"

    It's only a few months since a member was dragged from his car at knifepoint in cork.

    Random they may be but more frequent also.


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    But what do you arm Gardai with? Where do you stop?
    I cant see rank & file being given high powered weapons.
    As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them. But then again if he had ill intentions towards Gardai from the outset he would have done that anyway before the altercation started...

    I think this was a one-off case with someone who had lost the plot, not an indication of a trend.


  • Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭d3exile


    As mentioned the man had a long range weapon, if he wanted to take on armed Gardai he would simply out-range them.

    I think you underestimate the capabilities of the specialist units in the Gardai... The ERU would be second only to the Army Rangers in terms of capabilities I believe and easily out range anyone...

    What's there is elite, well trained and well equipped, the problem is there isn't enough of them... An armed standoff in some parts of the country can take more than an hour for the RSU or ERU to arrive, if required

    Rank and file Gardai will never be armed, the GRA have said they don't want it, the public wouldn't support it and the Government wouldn't pay for it...

    Armed response units, however are essential and the way things are going WILL be a necessity 24/7 and nationwide in the very short future!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    I'm not underestimating the elite units, more pointing out that this incident isn't much of a case for arming EVERY guard. The man had a high powered rifle with him. A sidearm wont be much use.

    I do agree that more armed support units should be available. The UK model of arming many traffic units seems do work well. Or does it?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    A sidearm wont be much use.

    How wouldn't it? It would be lethal, which was perhaps necessary if the guy didnt decide to shoot himself and continue to go on a rampage. A sidearm is capable of incapacitating a suspect who is trying to kill you - fact. Trying to claim otherwise is silly in my opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 871 ✭✭✭savagecabbages


    You seem to be missing my point.
    If someone with a long range weapon wants to shoot someone with a short range one, he can do so from 100+ yards away. In such a case a sidearm isn't much use.

    I'm not saying its not lethal, just that arming every guard isn't a 'cure all' solution to the problem...


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,261 ✭✭✭source


    You seem to be missing my point.
    If someone with a long range weapon wants to shoot someone with a short range one, he can do so from 100+ yards away. In such a case a sidearm isn't much use.

    I'm not saying its not lethal, just that arming every guard isn't a 'cure all' solution to the problem...

    If the members were armed, they wouldn't have had to run behind the car to hide, and the guy would never have gotten his hands on the high powered rifle.

    If members were properly armed, then the situation wouldn't have developed to the extent that it did. Also these are the members who are first responders to all calls, When they arrive at a bank robbery or an armed call, wouldn't it be great if they didn't have to wait an hour for armed assistance and were properly equipped to do the job themselves?

    If you haven't guessed I'm all for arming the regular members. Having spent 4 years as a member, and having been in some very sticky and scary situations, I feel it is unfortunately a necessary evil. We're at a stage where the regular scrote on the street can access firearms if they really want it.

    There are very powerful weapons up to and including grenades and pipebombs available to the scrotes that Gardai are dealing with every day, in this day and age it is unacceptable for them not to be armed and to be dealing with these scumbags with a baton and some pepper spray.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Zambia wrote: »
    Lets face it when the incident ended he had the upper hand he had a long range weapon and the Garda were behind a car with one can of pepper spray.

    Help was several minutes away.

    This is not acceptable, members should not be in that position. If they were armed they would not be.

    Still doesn't stack up.

    Let's say every division or county had an armed response unit. Would they have got there in the time that this event unfolded? Unlikely. Put this incident another 10K into the countryside and they probably wouldn't even find them.

    The only solution to reverse this state of affairs is to arm all members. There is no public appetite for this and nor do I believe a necessity. Armed units are required but in my view these units - as in the UK - aren't really being trained to respond to this type of event i.e where somebody may appear be in a confused or distressed state and armed . It's rare that you hear of a successful outcome to this type of event.

    Gardai since the foundation of the State have accepted that they are policing the community unarmed. There have always been armed criminals and situation where supposedly 5 people in 100 have a legal firearm.

    However, I would agree that you do tend to take a cop with a gun more seriously in any situation.


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