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"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    Or the drivers bothering to learn how to use the machine...


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    Or the powers that be knowing how to fully integrate the system, with Dublin Bus taking a mature approach to it and simplifying the fare structure for Leap Cards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    bk wrote: »
    Sigh just double charged on the bus again :(
    This is why you shouldn't be able to buy more than one ticket with the Leap card. If there was a delay of 5 minutes (less even) between being able to use the card, then none of this double-charging would happen. Being able to buy somebody else a ticket is one of those Irish Solutions that I've never heard of in any other smart card system.

    The whole process of asking for an annulment (lol) is tedious. It's basically saying, "Excuse me Mr Driver, you're too much of an idiot to use a simple machine, and I now expect you to be able to cancel your mistake with ease and a smile on your face." It's never going to go down all happy cheery, no matter how politely one phrases it. And as for the people behind you in the queue, "...fcuk sake...". Yeah, nobody wants to be that person.

    When the driver double charged me, I let it go. (It was too late before I realised anyway, in retrospect.) Granted it was a test card, so not my money. I'd rather avoid the confrontation after a long day (or indeed while an early morning zombie), and if after cursing the NTA I felt like getting a refund or simply venting my spleen I'd send an email to the chaps in charge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    The double charging is going to be one of a lot of problems Dublin Bus will have. Users should not have to go near the driver and just use the validator and have some sort of flat fare, midway between min and max fares. The whole idea of a cashless system is not to go near the driver. People don't have a clue how many stages they are going, even if they know the fare. As a result a lot of people that would have just used pre-paid tickets at validators for years, will suddenly find themselves having to go to the driver, slowing up the system and defeating the whole purpose of the exercise. Previous cash customers with Leap Cards will also still be at the driver to ensure they are being charged correctly. It is not the drivers' fault, but the crazy way it is being implemented on Dublin Bus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    I just looked at my cards' history on www.leapcard.ie and it shows that I was double charged for a journey on last Tuesday evening, how can this happen when the machine only issued one ticket for 1.65?

    I have no moral claim to the cash since it's one of the test cards that I got for free with €20 credit but how can I establish in future if this happens, given that not all the machines print your balance on the bus ticket?

    At least if there was an audible 'beep' when the machine takes credit from the card it might be obvious when it deducts money twice in the same transaction but I've never heard the machine make a noise and on a dark winter's evening with a big queue behind you I think a lot of people are going to get double charged and they'll be on the phone to you know (TTJ) before long!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    ^ Did you get a paper ticket? You're not supposed to usually (i.e. unless they give you a printout of your card's history).


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    Aard wrote: »
    ^ Did you get a paper ticket? You're not supposed to usually (i.e. unless they give you a printout of your card's history).

    Yes I did but it only showed the balance at the bottom of the ticket, not any history. It showed the boarding stage and the stage to which I had paid, it had 1.65 stamped on it.

    If you're not supposed to get a paper ticket with Leap, how come he did give me a ticket if I wasn't paying cash? I was on another bus yesterday and paid 1.65 which according to the Leap website was correctly deducted i.e. I paid only once, I got a paper 1.65 ticket with no balance printed on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    coylemj wrote: »
    If you're not supposed to get a paper ticket with Leap, how come he did give me a ticket if I wasn't paying cash?

    Got an answer to that query from the Leapcard website in the section about using the card on DB.......

    No paper ticket will be issued. If you wish to pay for a companion, the driver will issue you with a ticket for their journey.

    Looks like the driver wasn't aware that I wasn't supposed to get a ticket so when none was issued, he pressed the button again, the machine assumed that this was a request for a ticket for an additional passenger so I was charged two fares. I had the card pressed against the reader all the time so clearly the second iteration causes a ticket to print.

    Doh! Will know better next time.

    Clearly the card can store information about the last validation and that covers the cardholder (similar to Travel90) but for multiple passengers, the additional travellers (whose fares are being paid by the Leap card) get paper tickets.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    I imagine what happened yesterday was that the €1.65 was deducted off your card (no paper ticket), then a non-Leap ticket of €1.65 was issued too (just like a cash ticket). That's why the balance wasn't printed. It was as if you had put €1.65 in the coin box.

    On Tuesday, the €1.65 was deducted off the card (again, no paper ticket), but then he took another €1.65 off as if you were paying for a friend (and issued a paper ticket). This one shows your old balance and your new one too.


    It's a fcuking ridiculous system tbh. ONE customer, ONE card, ONE fare. You'd think they'd keep it that simple. But no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    coylemj wrote: »
    I was on another bus yesterday and paid 1.65 which according to the Leap website was correctly deducted i.e. I paid only once, I got a paper 1.65 ticket with no balance printed on it.
    Aard wrote: »
    I imagine what happened yesterday was that the €1.65 was deducted off your card (no paper ticket), then a non-Leap ticket of €1.65 was issued too (just like a cash ticket). That's why the balance wasn't printed. It was as if you had put €1.65 in the coin box.

    Sorry, I got it wrong, the trip yesterday isn't on the system yet but I expect that that is going to be a double-charge as well because I got a paper ticket even though I paid with Leap.

    I suspect that the training was half-baked or simply done too long ago. The activation of the Leap website after the trial ended means that this fcuk up won't be highlighted so the project people are probably now getting bonuses for a job (not) well done.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Maybe it is time to throw the leap in the bin with the e-voting machines and stick with the systems people are aware of and trust? From the start it has been more about the different strands of CIE and their demands rather than anything to do with serving passengers or the general public. As for the Dublin Bus Staged fare system we all know that utter confusion is the basis for it and there will in the future be millions raised through standard/penalty fares on the back of this misinforming system!


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    Got my first free journey today.

    "Red light, free trip !!!" were the words of the wry smiling bus driver this morning.

    Put a smile on my face too.

    :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 928 ✭✭✭Shelli2


    So, went to buy my leap this morning, to a shop listed on the payzone website.....

    'Can I buy a Leap Card Please?'
    'What's that? We don't sell those?'
    'It's a pre-pay card you can use on the bus'
    'Oh, we don't sell bus tickets'
    'It's not a bus tickets, it's a card you buy through payzone, the website listed this shop as stocking the Leap card'
    'Well I've never heard of it and we don't have it'


    Sigh......this is a good start. So now, scrape together change I thought I wouldn't need and head into town, will try to buy one in there I guess.

    Anyone know a shop on or very close to O'Connell street that are definately selling them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    Shelli2 wrote: »
    Anyone know a shop on or very close to O'Connell street that are definately selling them?

    railusers. ie confirmed these as working last week
    Station House, Dundrum Luas Stop
    Reynolds, Abbey St
    Stanleys, Abbey St
    Students Union Shop, Trinity College
    Easons, Heuston Station

    Centra, Ranelagh
    Centra, Marine Rd Dun Laoghaire

    Mace, South Circular Rd Rear of James Hospital

    Londis, St Stephen's Green
    Londis, 2-3 College Green
    Londis, Westmoreland Street

    Spar, Fairview
    Spar, Swords
    Spar, Tallaght Cross


  • Registered Users Posts: 928 ✭✭✭Shelli2


    Thanks, looks like a stroll up to Abbey Street so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    Dublin Bus not really writing much about it are they? I saw they answered someone on Twitter and told them to look at the article about fares information on their site which is not where you would look for info on the leap card really.

    At least LUAS and Irish rail have a news article exactly about the Leap Card and it isn't buried - hopefully Dublin Bus will post an article up about this and make it clear the benefits, unless they are worried about loss of revenue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭Flukey


    I topped up mine online over the weekend. The procedure then is to get the top-up credited to the card within 7 days. This can be done at places like the Luas machines or Payzone etc. I went into one of the Payzone shops this morning and they had not got it operational. I tried a second one and after a bit of consultations between the staff, it got credited. I still have my annual Bus and Luas to run until the end of December, so I can quietly put the Leap Card away until January now and stay clear of the carnage that is going to be on Dublin Bus with this.

    As I was getting my card credited, they were discussing Leap on Morning Ireland. I didn't hear it all clearly, so I am not 100% sure who the speaker on behalf of it was. However he did say, in response to an article in one of the papers last week, that all the issues had been sorted out. These were mainly with Dublin Bus and drivers not being sure how to deal with it and double charging etc., but according to the spokesman it is all fine now. As I said, I didn't hear it all so it's possible I missed him saying how Leap will also be acceptable for people wanting to travel on flying pigs. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,292 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    @IrishRail just posted on Twitter as follows...

    If you already have a rail only ePurse smartcard, you can switch to @LeapCard for free. More info here: http://t.co/EsHgmalp

    What about people with IR SMartcards who took part in the Leap trial and now have two cards?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    My IR smartcard has virtually nothing on it, so I'm just using the trial leap card going forward and keping the IR one back for emergencies such as when I can't top my leap card up and I need to use Irish Rail, as Leap can't be topped up from Irish Rail ticket machines at the moment.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    You can get all the cards you have changed into Leap cards for free (Leap cards are worth €5 without travel credit).

    You don't even seem to need to send in your old cards, so they can be kept for sentimental reasons?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 951 ✭✭✭robd


    monument wrote: »
    You can get all the cards you have changed into Leap cards for free (Leap cards are worth €5 without travel credit).

    You don't even seem to need to send in your old cards, so they can be kept for sentimental reasons?

    You cant't transfer credit from Irish Rail or Luas card to Leap Card. So you need to keep them to use of the credit. Hence it seems you can forever keep them for sentimental reasons.

    No date yet for when these cards will be turned of or if they will even be turned off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    Well as of today it is no longer possible to buy either an Irish Rail or LUAS smart card. They have been withdrawn from sale and I heard that they will be wound down in the coming months.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭wench


    robd wrote: »
    No date yet for when these cards will be turned of or if they will even be turned off.
    Luas have updated the smartcard t&c today, and it says that topups will be disabled in 3 months, and usage 3 months after that


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    robd wrote: »
    You cant't transfer credit from Irish Rail or Luas card to Leap Card. So you need to keep them to use of the credit. Hence it seems you can forever keep them for sentimental reasonsp.

    Use the credit first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,481 ✭✭✭SteM


    Flukey wrote: »
    I topped up mine online over the weekend. The procedure then is to get the top-up credited to the card within 7 days. This can be done at places like the Luas machines or Payzone etc.

    So you pay online but still have to go to a payzone site to get the money credited to the card? What's the logic behind that? If I put money on my account online for my bin collection it goes straight on to my card AND I get a % bonus for using their online system.

    This could have been a chance to bring elements of our public transport system into the 21st century. Instead it sounds like this is a system put together with gum and sticky tape, typically Irish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭KD345


    Dublin Bus not really writing much about it are they? .

    What are you unsure about?

    http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Fares--Tickets/Leapcard/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    That was not there earlier for sure. Surprised they didn't put a proper article on the front page about it though rather than hiding it away in the fare rises article.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    SteM wrote: »
    So you pay online but still have to go to a payzone site to get the money credited to the card? What's the logic behind that? If I put money on my account online for my bin collection it goes straight on to my card AND I get a % bonus for using their online system.

    This could have been a chance to bring elements of our public transport system into the 21st century. Instead it sounds like this is a system put together with gum and sticky tape, typically Irish.

    No, how do you expect your card to be topped up? it doesn't have it's own internet connection after all. You don't need to collect your top up at a LUAS machine either or a paypoint.

    You can collect your top up automatically when you tag on at an Irish Rail gate or alternatively at a LUAS validator. Unfortunately the bus does not have a direct connection to the itnernet so how can it know that you have topped up?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Sigh.....Did you seek an annulment ?

    No and for the exact reasons Aard describes below. Not wanting to be the plonker who holds up other passengers and also I figured the driver wouldn't know how to do it anyway and would be pissed off.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,218 ✭✭✭markpb


    SteM wrote: »
    So you pay online but still have to go to a payzone site to get the money credited to the card? What's the logic behind that? If I put money on my account online for my bin collection it goes straight on to my card AND I get a % bonus for using their online system.

    If you're going to go on a rant, it would help if you had any idea what you were talking about. Even the slightest attempt at sanity would help. The cash is stored _on_ the card in your pocket. That's the way London, Paris, New York, Hong Kong, Los Angeles, Chicago and just about every other city does it because it's all the technology allows.

    The only alternative is to tie the contactless card into your phone and allow over the air updates to populate from GSM to the card. That solution would require phone operators to build phones specific to the Irish market which is why it hasn't taken off outside of Japan (yet).

    But don't worry your head about that, just dismiss it as typically Irish.


This discussion has been closed.
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