Penalty Points and Insurance Company

jasonb · 08-09-2005 9:59am #1

Hi all...

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it, and the Search feature is disabled...

Anyhow, I just got a notification in the post for speeding, doing 54mph on the Naas Road ( which is currently 40mph due to ongoing roadworks ). I'm gonna pay the fine cos I was speeding. I could argue all about how NO-ONE else does 40mph on that road, and how many other cars are now beeping / flashing their lights at me cos I'm now sticking to the 40mph, but there's no point really, I broke the law and that's that...

Anyhow, what's the situation with the 2 penalty points and my Insurance company ( Axa ). As far as I know, AXA are not told by the Gardai about the points. Do I legally have to tell AXA when my renewal comes around? Have AXA anyway of finding out without me telling them? Will 2 points increase my premium? If I don't tell them, and then ever have to claim, and they find out, does that negate my claim?

Basically, is there a legal reason for me to tell Axa about this? Thoughts please...

J.

green-blood · 08-09-2005 10:20am

you have to tell them or they will void your insurance if they find out....its on the declaration you sign anyway, there will be no loading for 2 points anyway. Get this Hibernian reckon 2 points drivers are safer because they have felt the tap on the shoulder!!!

jasonb · 08-09-2005 10:25am

Do you have to tell them immediately, or when you renew? The notice I got from the Gardai didn't mention anything at all about telling my Insurance company. When I get the points notification in a few months time, will that say I have to tell my Insurance company? Or will Axa's renewal form tell me I have to tell them?

I guess what I'm saying is if there's nothing in writing when I get these points telling me I have to declare them to my Insurance company, then how am I supposed to know that I am legally bound to tell them?

J.

Seth Brundle · 08-09-2005 10:32am

You just got notification of speeding, not notification that points have been applied to your licence. You will get the points letter sometime in the next few years - then tell your insurance company if they ask.
From memory the insurance company ask about 'claims or convictions' - speeding related points are neither IMO.

jasonb · 08-09-2005 10:35am

The way I see it, if the Notification of Points tells me I must tell the Insurance Company, then I will. If the Insurance Company's Renewal form ( which I'll get in a couple of months ) tells me I have to tell them if I got points, then I will.

But if I don't get any written instructions that I should tell them, then why should I? How am I meant to know that I'm meant to tell them?

J.

Seth Brundle · 08-09-2005 10:44am

Make sure you don't tell them until you actually get a letter stating that X points have been added to your licence. This does not appear to be the letter you have recieved and as I said, it can take a few years to get this letter.
Once recieved, then the points last for 3 years. No point paying (possibly) higher insurance for longer than is necessary.

seamus · 08-09-2005 11:49am

Check your insurance policy ffs. My policy, with Hibernian says two things:

1. In the event that I receive any points on my licence, I am obliged to notify Hibernian.
2. If I fail to notify Hibernian, and I have a crash, my statutory excess increases to €2,500.

These are essentially workarounds for the problem of your status changing mid-policy. As it stands, the policy states that you are insured if
a) You hold or have held a licence for the category of vehicle being insured
b) You're not disqualified from holding such a licence
c) Your licence does not carry any endorsements.

Afaik, Penalty Points don't count as endorsements. So, if you receive penalty points, and crash, your insurer is still obliged to insure you, since you are not breaching the terms of your insurance. But then they make you sign a disclaimer, increasing your excess to €2500 if you *don't* tell them. This they can legally do. They can't make you sign an agreement that your insurance is invalid if you don't disclose the points after receiving them.

If there is nothing in your insurance agreement with Axa about the points - and I suspect there would be - then you don't have to tell them. The requirement won't be written on your insurance cert., it'll be in the documentation you got with your policy.

Seth Brundle · 08-09-2005 11:57am

True Seamus but as yet he doesn't appear to have recieved any points so there is nothing to tell the insurance company!
The garda fine letter is different from the DoE points letter. The time difference between recieving the two can and often is quite considerable.

Dagon · 08-09-2005 2:37pm

My situation was quite interesting; In December 2002 I sat my driving test, passed it, and didn't apply for my full license as I wanted to wait until my provisional ran out (my Dad said it was the same thing cause the insurance was already paid anyway, and no point in throwing away a provisional you've paid for). So I decided I would wait until May 03 and then apply for the full license. I waited...

As I was waiting, *shock horror* I got caught speeding!

I got an €80 fine and two points stamped on my provisional license.

Went home and realised that I had another provisional license - a clone of the one that I got the points on - because at some point I thought I'd lost my original one. This is an unstamped, clean provisional license.

Anyway, now I apply for my full license and send in the unmarked provisional license. I get my full license in the post, no questions are asked.

Then I get a letter from the Gardai a couple of weeks later saying 2 points were added to my license (obviously my old provisional).

Ever since then, when asked by my insurance company if I have any endorsements or points, I say I have none. I mean, surely the points were applied to my OLD provisional, and were destroyed somewhere along the way (not only by the provisional clone, but also by the new actual license, which should be a "clean" slate?)???

Or are they?

seamus · 08-09-2005 3:09pm

Afaik, the points are applied against your PPSN. If someone queries you (with your permission), your two points should show up, even if they're not on your licence. If you receive a duplicate licence and subsequently find your lost one, you're required to surrender the original, as it has now been cancelled.

There's not really any sense of having it applied "to your licence". You have earned the points, not your licence. Just because you've discarded the old licence, doesn't mean somehow you've magically discarded the points

Dagon · 08-09-2005 3:17pm

Hhmmm.. so thats two years driving now without telling anyone about my points :eek:

Another 10 months left... if I tell the insurance company at this point, will they charge me some big fee for the 2 years they weren't told? Should I just stay quiet? As far am I'm concerned I have no points :cool:

seamus · 08-09-2005 4:18pm

Dagon wrote:

Hhmmm.. so thats two years driving now without telling anyone about my points :eek:

Another 10 months left... if I tell the insurance company at this point, will they charge me some big fee for the 2 years they weren't told? Should I just stay quiet? As far am I'm concerned I have no points :cool:

As I outline above - it depends on your insurance policy. Your insurer may not care, or they may impose a huge statutory excess for not discloing them. Ultimately you haven't been driving uninsured for the last two years, so don't worry too much about that

If it's only two points, chances are there'll be no extra charge, and there certainly won't be any charge for the last two years. Your insurer cannot back charge you on an expired policy. Anecdotal evidence suggests that insurers are only penalising those with 6 or more points, and giving bonuses to those with 5 or less, so two or zero points makes no difference.

My advice would be to
1. Check your policy, inside-out. If you don't have to declare, great. If you do, then
2. Tell them. I've never done it, but I doubt they'll ask when you got them.
3. When they expire, ring up again, and tell them they've expired.

NUTLEY BOY · 08-09-2005 10:37pm

Motor insurance policies are annual contracts.

Every year the duty to disclose material facts revives at renewal. In other words renewal is just like filling in the proposal form again.

It is for the insurers to decide what, if anything, they do with points awarded against you.

If you fail to declare the points at or before the next renewal they might void your policy for non disclosure of a material fact and leave you in the muck in the event of a claim.

Penalty Points and Insurance Company

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