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Grassroots FF and the renewal of the party

  • 06-05-2012 7:21am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭


    We hear a lot about the FF renewal and grassroots.

    I would like to know what FF grassroots stands for .

    If a recent Mayo cumann meeting is any indication grassroots stand behind Pee Flynn.

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/05/01/meanwhile-in-mayo-7/

    We saw the grassroots fall over themselves applauding Brian Cowen at the recent ard fheis.

    O Cuiv claims he is the voice of grassroots. He says that FFs natural ally is SF . Also he is definitely anti Yes on the forthcoming treaty.

    In the absence of any other message , FF grassroots looks like an organisation without clear direction.

    Does anyone know what FF stands for , or Grassroots FF stands for?

    Maybe I am wrong , maybe there is a set of core values that are clearly defined.


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    Well, so much for FF's apology recently and mutterings of a " new beginning " and so on. But I suppose the leopard could never change his spots. :rolleyes:

    " At a recent meeting of Castlebar Fianna Fail Cumann, it was unanimously agreed that a vote of thanks and appreciation be extended to former EU commissioner Padraig Flynn for his work on behalf of Castlebar and County Mayo during his years of public service. "

    http://www.advertiser.ie/mayo/article/51863/castlebar-fianna-fail-lauds-flynns-record-of-service-to-mayo

    Isn't this the kind of servile gombeenism and cute hoorism that has destroyed this country and appears to be still alive and well in some parts of the country ??


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 564 ✭✭✭thecommietommy


    The Flynn record speaks for itself,” he said :eek:. “This county benefited from a whole range of major projects for which he was responsible. All of the infrastuctural advantages we enjoy in Mayo today were a direct result of him representing his county with such drive and determination over his years in government.”

    It should be pointed out, that Padraig gave Mammy Flynn the €50,000 Fianna Fail ' donation ' and Mammy went and bought some land to plant trees on it with a grant of €200,000 from Coillte. When FF became aware of this, they amazingly never looked for the €50,00 back - nor has ' new honest FF man ' Martin either !!!!!

    According to a legal expert on RTE the night of the Mahon report, he said he couldn't be specific but that certain " political household names " would face criminal charges (he specifically mentioned Ahern wouldn't it should be pointed out). I suppose Castlebar FF will have a few church gate collections for poor Padraig and the Flynn family no dounbt :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Opening post moved from Irish Economy and existing thread merged.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭Chazz Michael Michaels


    There is no renewal of that party, they are comprised from top to bottom, voter to leader. A history of corruption and willingly voting for the corrupt and inept. FF represent everything that is wrong with Irish society, because, they were at the core of everything that happened in our history. I never voted for them and never will, and I will never take seriously a person who supports them.

    And, before the inevitably moronic question of 'well, who do you support' chimes in, I don't support any parties. I find blindly supporting a party to be a cretinous activity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    There is no renewal of that party,

    I think you are correct here , no renewal , no real core values, no point


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Go to a meeting and see for yourself.

    The Clar for the last Ard Fheis can be found here which contains many motions submitted by grass root members throughout the nation.

    FF Ard Fheis Clar 2012

    A list of motions that were passed is also knocking about the place.
    raymon wrote: »

    If a recent Mayo cumann meeting is any indication grassroots stand behind Pee Flynn.

    What do you expect from the cumann that the Flynn family has a huge amount of influence over? The wider movement despise Flynn - however you rarely heard about the motions which were passed by cumann up and down the country calling for the expulsion of the likes of Flynn and recently Ahern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    raymon wrote: »
    There is no renewal of that party,

    I think you are correct here , no renewal , no real core values, no point


    What party are close to your heart at this present time, Raymon?
    We know what party's you dislike, any chance of your opinion on the rest for a change?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,179 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Is O Cuiv, going to challenge Martin for leadership?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The wider movement despise Flynn - however you rarely heard about the motions which were passed by cumann up and down the country calling for the expulsion of the likes of Flynn and recently Ahern.
    why only recently ahern? There has been ample opportunity over the last number of years to get rid of him. You didn't need to wait on the tribunal to report first!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    kbannon wrote: »
    why only recently ahern? There has been ample opportunity over the last number of years to get rid of him. You didn't need to wait on the tribunal to report first!

    There are legal implications in discussing Mahon and making judgements on an individuals character before the tribunal has issued its report.

    Sounds pathetic, I know - but its true nonetheless.

    In saying that, it is not as if there werent people who wanted Ahern gone before the Tribunal reported - but such people pretty much had to hold fire until there was reliable ammunition to base their opinions upon! To be fair, I think that is only right too.
    ted1 wrote: »
    Is O Cuiv, going to challenge Martin for leadership?

    I cannot really see that happening as you need support to launch a leadership bid, which O'Cuiv has little to none of - especially within the parliamentary party.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,193 ✭✭✭[Jackass]


    O'Cuiv is tasting the air and smells the anti-Europe agenda, he's looking at the success of SF, and he is currently making a juxtaposition to align himself with this.

    FF stands for nothing. The failure of the party at Government level, and the oppertunity to become a martyr is the sole motivation behind the desperately power hungry O'Cuiv, and he knows he's on a sinking ship and wont get it there.

    He has that ruthless, conniving De Valera blood in him, and just like his grandfather, he'll do whatever it takes to get into power, take whatever stance will get him there, and seize on the separation of the populous to propel himself to glory.

    Watch out for O Cuiv, he's from the deepest belly of the corrupt and conniving slime ball school of FF.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    I can honestly only see people keeping a flame burning for this party due to pure tradition. This does not make any sense to me. Why try fix such a broken corrupt party? FFail stands for generational corruption and was founded by a thief who screwed the very people he claimed to represent. That's become the main trait of the party. Yes, potholes got filled and so on, but why do people feel the need to keep plugging away with this shady organisation?
    I cannot help but be negative about FFail. It's not disliking for the hell of it, facts are facts.
    The whole grass roots members, salt of the earth, the real FFail thing simply doesn't wash. There's two ways to view it:
    1) the grass roots people are genuine and love the country...but have had successive corrupt leaders and guiding lights since day one so what good is it to have such upstanding grass roots, does it even matter?
    2) if everybody on the ground are great and trying to change from within, why not either expell your whole leadership and start from scratch or even leave and form a new party?

    I believe the grass roots of FFail are the problem. They enable the shysters to rule, they support the likes of Flynn, O'Dea, Ahern on a local level.
    It's all civil war/partition ****e in my view. We don't need it and will never progress with the hardcore FFail or nothing grass roots folk on the scene. Same goes for FG.


  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭transylman


    There are legal implications in discussing Mahon and making judgements on an individuals character before the tribunal has issued its report.

    Sounds pathetic, I know - but its true nonetheless.

    It does sound pathetic, but it isn't true. There was plenty of evidence before the 2007 election that Ahern had been engaging in all kinds of financial irregularities. If they had wanted to, the parliamentary party had a wide variety of ways that they could have got rid of him without affecting the Mahon tribunal. They either didn't care or chose to ignore all this and stand by him.

    If what you are saying was true they wouldn't have been able to pressure him to leave in 2008.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    [Jackass] wrote: »
    O'Cuiv is tasting the air and smells the anti-Europe agenda, he's looking at the success of SF, and he is currently making a juxtaposition to align himself with this.

    Watch out for O Cuiv, he's from the deepest belly of the corrupt and conniving slime ball school of FF.

    I think O'Cuiv is aligning himself for leadership. Just like his his grandad De Valera, talk talk talk, and no substance. He has no charisma and would get little support, other than the gombeen vote. O'Cuiv is outdated and out of touch IMO. He should have shown his rebellious streak when FF were driving the country into bankruptcy, not now when it suits his own agenda.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Go to a meeting and see for yourself.

    The Clar for the last Ard Fheis can be found here which contains many motions submitted by grass root members throughout the nation.

    FF Ard Fheis Clar 2012

    A list of motions that were passed is also knocking about the place.



    What do you expect from the cumann that the Flynn family has a huge amount of influence over? The wider movement despise Flynn - however you rarely heard about the motions which were passed by cumann up and down the country calling for the expulsion of the likes of Flynn and recently Ahern.

    The link you provided does not answer my question.

    Does anyone know what FF stands for , or Grassroots FF stands for?

    I'm confused by the support for Cowen, Flynn, SF and No vote in the forthcoming referendum coming from within the FF party.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Wider Road wrote: »
    What party are close to your heart at this present time, Raymon?
    We know what party's you dislike, any chance of your opinion on the rest for a change?

    No party is " close to my heart " at present.

    I have mixed views on the current government. Too early to judge.

    Independents have been a dire disappointment , I was hoping for more.

    SF are playing to capture the working class vote with blatant populism, and it is working.

    But FF take the prize for worst performance .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    raymon wrote: »
    We hear a lot about the FF renewal and grassroots.

    I would like to know what FF grassroots stands for .

    If a recent Mayo cumann meeting is any indication grassroots stand behind Pee Flynn.

    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/05/01/meanwhile-in-mayo-7/

    We saw the grassroots fall over themselves applauding Brian Cowen at the recent ard fheis.

    O Cuiv claims he is the voice of grassroots. He says that FFs natural ally is SF . Also he is definitely anti Yes on the forthcoming treaty.

    In the absence of any other message , FF grassroots looks like an organisation without clear direction.

    Does anyone know what FF stands for , or Grassroots FF stands for?

    Maybe I am wrong , maybe there is a set of core values that are clearly defined.


    First of all to the best of my knowledge the Castlebar Cumann of FF is the only branch in Mayo that supported Flynn, every other branch voted either unanimously or overwhelmingly in support of the expulsion of Flynn and Ahern.

    FF Grassroots still believe in the ideals of supporting business while also ensuring that the more needy in society are looked after where possible. Sadly the top moved away from this ideal for quite some time back and completely ignored warnings coming from their supporters.

    FF Grassroots are still mainly form the working class/middle class, small farmer background. There would be simply no way they would support FG as they are seen, and nothing they have done so far in government would change any FF supporters mind of the fact, as the party of the large farmer and the wealthier in this country.

    With regard to a No vote on the treaty the party stance is causing some disquiet as a large number of party supporters would be in the No camp. The treaty is being seen as permanently signing away economic sovereignty to Europe, mainly to Germany and France who seem to have taken over the running of Europe, forgetting that it is a Union of equal members. The people who were unhappy at the Troika being brought in by FF, including myself, now cannot comprehend the rush to permanently sign away that sovereignty when FF were criticised for a temporary signing away of that sovereignty.

    The Grassroots are where they have always been, the problem has been trying to keep the party in that place. The contempt shown by Ahern to the grassroots over the years was clear to everyone within the party, there was constant fighting within the Grassroots over it. The fight to get them back to where the Grassroots are is still going on, but as poll figures show many of the Grassroots have walked away and given up, and they can't be blamed for that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,467 ✭✭✭golfball37


    I was FF to the core until 2007 really. If they came back to their Republican roots I would certainly consider rejoining the party. I know a lot of lower down members like myself who agree with O'Cuiv on this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    golfball37 wrote: »
    I was FF to the core until 2007 really. If they came back to their Republican roots I would certainly consider rejoining the party. I know a lot of lower down members like myself who agree with O'Cuiv on this.


    You're right, many former members would come back but they think there is no real change in the party and the O'Cuiv issue is proving them right because they agree with him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    First of all to the best of my knowledge the Castlebar Cumann of FF is the only branch in Mayo that supported Flynn, every other branch voted either unanimously or overwhelmingly in support of the expulsion of Flynn and Ahern.

    FF Grassroots still believe in the ideals of supporting business while also ensuring that the more needy in society are looked after where possible. Sadly the top moved away from this ideal for quite some time back and completely ignored warnings coming from their supporters.

    FF Grassroots are still mainly form the working class/middle class, small farmer background. There would be simply no way they would support FG as they are seen, and nothing they have done so far in government would change any FF supporters mind of the fact, as the party of the large farmer and the wealthier in this country.

    With regard to a No vote on the treaty the party stance is causing some disquiet as a large number of party supporters would be in the No camp. The treaty is being seen as permanently signing away economic sovereignty to Europe, mainly to Germany and France who seem to have taken over the running of Europe, forgetting that it is a Union of equal members. The people who were unhappy at the Troika being brought in by FF, including myself, now cannot comprehend the rush to permanently sign away that sovereignty when FF were criticised for a temporary signing away of that sovereignty.

    The Grassroots are where they have always been, the problem has been trying to keep the party in that place. The contempt shown by Ahern to the grassroots over the years was clear to everyone within the party, there was constant fighting within the Grassroots over it. The fight to get them back to where the Grassroots are is still going on, but as poll figures show many of the Grassroots have walked away and given up, and they can't be blamed for that.

    You make a few good points , however I must disagree on a couple of points.

    You refer to the fact that FFs actions were but a temporary signing away of our sovereignty. I find the statement shocking. We are stuck with Anglo's debt forever. Remember this was supposed to be the cheapest bailout in history.

    Also you never mentioned Brian Cowen , please explain how the grassroots gave him a standing ovation at the ard fheis. He was one of the top architects of our destruction as minister for finance and later as taoiseach.

    Regarding the Flynnasty , surely if the grassroots wanted to they could put forward a motion looking for the return of the FF money used to buy the farm.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    raymon wrote: »
    First of all to the best of my knowledge the Castlebar Cumann of FF is the only branch in Mayo that supported Flynn, every other branch voted either unanimously or overwhelmingly in support of the expulsion of Flynn and Ahern.

    FF Grassroots still believe in the ideals of supporting business while also ensuring that the more needy in society are looked after where possible. Sadly the top moved away from this ideal for quite some time back and completely ignored warnings coming from their supporters.

    FF Grassroots are still mainly form the working class/middle class, small farmer background. There would be simply no way they would support FG as they are seen, and nothing they have done so far in government would change any FF supporters mind of the fact, as the party of the large farmer and the wealthier in this country.

    With regard to a No vote on the treaty the party stance is causing some disquiet as a large number of party supporters would be in the No camp. The treaty is being seen as permanently signing away economic sovereignty to Europe, mainly to Germany and France who seem to have taken over the running of Europe, forgetting that it is a Union of equal members. The people who were unhappy at the Troika being brought in by FF, including myself, now cannot comprehend the rush to permanently sign away that sovereignty when FF were criticised for a temporary signing away of that sovereignty.

    The Grassroots are where they have always been, the problem has been trying to keep the party in that place. The contempt shown by Ahern to the grassroots over the years was clear to everyone within the party, there was constant fighting within the Grassroots over it. The fight to get them back to where the Grassroots are is still going on, but as poll figures show many of the Grassroots have walked away and given up, and they can't be blamed for that.

    You make a few good points , however I must disagree on a couple of points.

    You refer to the fact that FFs actions were but a temporary signing away of our sovereignty. I find the statement shocking. We are stuck with Anglo's debt forever. Remember this was supposed to be the cheapest bailout in history.

    Also you never mentioned Brian Cowen , please explain how the grassroots gave him a standing ovation at the ard fheis. He was one of the top architects of our destruction as minister for finance and later as taoiseach.

    Regarding the Flynnasty , surely if the grassroots wanted to they could put forward a motion looking for the return of the FF money used to buy the farm.

    Sovereignty with regard to being told what we can and cannot do with our budgets. Owing a debt is one thing, being told what we can and cannot do as regards our budget by Germany and France forever is another thing. That's what the treaty provides. The bail out gave us our economic say back after 2015.

    With regard to Cowen, he got a standing ovation, probably ill advised, but within FF there is a certain amount of sympathy. As Minister for Finance he was under the boot of Ahern. FF was a dictatorship at the time. If you doubt that see what happened McCreevy when he stopped singing from the Bertie hymn sheet. When he became Taoiseach the cards had been dealt. He made some dreadful decisions and as a FF supporter I felt like I was watching a car crash in slow motion at times. The ovation was for his public service, be it disastrous or not ( for the record I was not in attendance ).

    Any sort of motion by FF is pointless and toothless and would achieve nothing. Do you think Flynn would produce €50000 just because a FF Cumann passed a motion?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    With regard to Cowen, he got a standing ovation, probably ill advised, but within FF there is a certain amount of sympathy. As Minister for Finance he was under the boot of Ahern. FF was a dictatorship at the time. If you doubt that see what happened McCreevy when he stopped singing from the Bertie hymn sheet. When he became Taoiseach the cards had been dealt. He made some dreadful decisions and as a FF supporter I felt like I was watching a car crash in slow motion at times. The ovation was for his public service, be it disastrous or not ( for the record I was not in attendance ).
    Nonsense.
    Cowen did not have to sign his name on anything. He is a smart man and if he disagreed with anything could have made a stand and taken the punishment or alternatively walked away based on his principles. The Irish people were never shown anything that looked like him taking a stand in favour of the people.
    Also, the FF fans also had the choice to stand and applaud or to sit and boo. As for the standing ovation being "probably ill advised" - who advised them to give a standing ovation?
    In terms of McCreevey, he didn't do too badly now, did he?
    Any sort of motion by FF is pointless and toothless and would achieve nothing. Do you think Flynn would produce €50000 just because a FF Cumann passed a motion?
    Looks like we will never know!
    However, the money was for FF. Martin claims that he doesn't want the money as its tainted (just like the party). Why doesn't he look for the money and then return it to Gilmartin? This would give the perception that FF are starting to root out corruption and would make for a few nice soundbites. Seems strange that FF don't want to avail of the opportunity of some positive spin!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    kbannon wrote: »
    Nonsense.
    Cowen did not have to sign his name on anything. He is a smart man and if he disagreed with anything could have made a stand and taken the punishment or alternatively walked away based on his principles. The Irish people were never shown anything that looked like him taking a stand in favour of the people.
    Also, the FF fans also had the choice to stand and applaud or to sit and boo. As for the standing ovation being "probably ill advised" - who advised them to give a standing ovation?
    In terms of McCreevey, he didn't do too badly now, did he?

    Looks like we will never know!
    However, the money was for FF. Martin claims that he doesn't want the money as its tainted (just like the party). Why doesn't he look for the money and then return it to Gilmartin? This would give the perception that FF are starting to root out corruption and would make for a few nice soundbites. Seems strange that FF don't want to avail of the opportunity of some positive spin!


    "Ill advised" is a form of speech, as I am sure you are more than aware. The nature of people not walking away on principle in politics is enshrined in every political party in this and any other country, which is a sad reflection of political life. It is not limited to FF or Brian Cowen. It is also very easy to look at the current crisis in hindsight, much easier than it possibly was while stuck in the middle of the whole thing, particularly as it is not an Irish phenonomen but has affected most of Europe. I am sure there were decisions made that seemd like the right thing at the time but now can be seen to have been wrong.

    With regard to McCreevy, he may not have done too bad, but everyone knows he didn't want to go and that the only reson he was made go was that he had questioned the spending by the government and wanted to rein it in.. Are you saying that would not have made a difference?? Or is your hatred for FF so irrational that no good could come from any decision made by a member?

    What would looking for the money achieve now?? FF is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. They would be criticised for trying to create positive spin. They were criticised for not doing something about the corrupt members of the party, when they satated they would expell tem they were criticised for doing so too late. I would personally rather that corruption actually be rooted out instead of "the perception that FF are starting to root out corruption" It would be pointless tilting at windmills because any decision on the money is Flynns and the party of which he is no longer a member certainly won't be able to influence that decision.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    raymon wrote: »
    Wider Road wrote: »
    What party are close to your heart at this present time, Raymon?
    We know what party's you dislike, any chance of your opinion on the rest for a change?

    No party is " close to my heart " at present.

    I have mixed views on the current government. Too early to judge.

    Independents have been a dire disappointment , I was hoping for more.

    SF are playing to capture the working class vote with blatant populism, and it is working.

    But FF take the prize for worst performance .



    You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

    The Government is new. The opposition are still the same, at least the FF part, tried and tested, with a fail certificate. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

    FF have ruined the country , they have had enough time . Their attempt at opposition is just a continuation of same old faces , with nothing new to say.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    It is also very easy to look at the current crisis in hindsight, much easier than it possibly was while stuck in the middle of the whole thing, particularly as it is not an Irish phenonomen but has affected most of Europe. I am sure there were decisions made that seemd like the right thing at the time but now can be seen to have been wrong

    This is a complete rewrite of what happened.

    Advice was given , and ignored.

    Our bank bailout was not a European phenomenon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,402 ✭✭✭HarryPotter41


    raymon wrote: »
    This is a complete rewrite of what happened.

    Advice was given , and ignored.

    Our bank bailout was not a European phenomenon.


    My reference to a European phenomenon was the economic problems affecting countries with their economies collapsing, I made no reference to the bank bailout.

    As far as the bank bailout goes, advice was given, two differing sets, one was chosen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    raymon wrote: »
    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

    FF have ruined the country , they have had enough time . Their attempt at opposition is just a continuation of same old faces , with nothing new to say.



    Reading your post I am wondering why did you start this thread?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're saying that it's too early to judge the current government but not too early to judge the opposition!!

    The Government is new. The opposition are still the same, at least the FF part, tried and tested, with a fail certificate. :)


    How are the opposition still the same, especially the FF part, when the Government is new?


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