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Atheism & Agnosticism are not the same thing!

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    seamus wrote: »
    That leaves a group of people - "I believe there is a God, but I'm not 100% sure".
    They would still be theists, primarily.
    That seems absurd because you're using the same name to describe people who believe in God and people who don't believe in God, they just aren't certain about it.
    Meet my friend, Mr. Strawman.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    SeanW wrote: »
    They would still be theists, primarily.
    And since atheism is the opposite of theism, then people who say, "I don't believe in a God, but I'm not 100% sure" are atheists, right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    @SeanW,

    Are you a theist?


    (Yes or No will suffice.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    seamus wrote: »
    So, "Do you believe in God", and your answer is "Unknown".
    Precisely. I cannot give a yes or no answer - my religious view does not allow me to do so.
    What you're confusing is knowledge in the specific sense and knowledge in the general sense.
    What the hell are you on about?
    The question is not, "Is there a God", the question is in relation to your belief - "Do you believe?" You cannot say that the answer is inherently unknowable because you already know what you believe.
    Actually, I can. My beliefs are absolutely, 100% without question, guided by my knowledge, which in turn is guided by the evidence as I understand it.

    I believe that unknown is the answer. Slice it whatever way you like, it is no more complicated than that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    I believe that unknown is the answer. Slice it whatever way you like, it is no more complicated than that.

    You're answering a question about belief with a statement of knowledge.

    It's a blatantly invalid answer in an attempt to avoid the simple logical fact: if you are not a theist you are an atheist.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Seachmall wrote: »
    You're answering a question about belief with a statement of knowledge.

    It's a blatantly invalid answer.
    My beliefs are guided by my knowledge, the answer is valid. As I said, it really is no more complicated than that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Can't image link into the thread, so here's a link to an image which explains it:

    196111.png

    This is being discussed in the following thread in A+A:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77504500&postcount=2


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 349 ✭✭talkinyite


    SeanW wrote: »
    Actually, I can. My beliefs are absolutely, 100% without question

    So you're gnostic? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    SeanW wrote: »
    I believe that unknown is the answer. Slice it whatever way you like, it is no more complicated than that.
    So you believe that it is impossible to know whether or not you have a belief.

    I think that's about as complicated as you can possibly make it. In fact it reminds me of a paradox like the halting problem of computing science. Ever hear of cognitive dissonance?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    SeanW, you're wrong, why don't you save us all some time and just admit it now?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    My beliefs are guided by my knowledge, the answer is valid.

    Knowledge underpins your beliefs, and rightly so, but the question is not about how you support your beliefs, it is about what you believe.



    Do you believe God exists?



    I don't care what you know or don't know nor why you believe or don't believe. I want to know if you do or do not believe. It's a dichotomous question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    Dawkins' Spectrum of theistic probability argues that most self-indentifying atheists are actually technically agnostics, so far as to say that no rational person can say for certain that there is no deity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I really don't know how many ways I have to slice this simple idea so that you will understand:

    Observed evidence => knowledge => belief.

    For example, if a person had evidence that a deity existed, for example a Marian apprarition that could not be explained by psychosis or any physical explanation, then they would have evidence. That evidence would be added to their knowledge and this in turn would guide their beliefs. That person would be a Theist.

    Observed evidence => knowledge => belief.

    My understanding of the evidence suggests that asserting *anything* is impossible. This guides my knowledge and my beliefs flow from that. It really is that simple.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    SeanW wrote: »
    I really don't know how many ways I have to slice this simple idea so that you will understand:

    Observed evidence => knowledge => belief.

    For example, if a person had evidence that a deity existed, for example a Marian apprarition that could not be explained by psychosis or any physical explanation, then they would have evidence. That evidence would be added to their knowledge and this in turn would guide their beliefs. That person would be a Theist.

    Observed evidence => knowledge => belief.

    My understanding of the evidence suggests that asserting *anything* is impossible. This guides my knowledge and my beliefs flow from that. It really is that simple.
    Do you have a belief in a god, any god?

    Yes or no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭Attabear


    Several pages later and I still don't know what I am.


    I'm theo-confused. Is there a support group?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,137 ✭✭✭44leto


    Attabear wrote: »
    Several pages later and I still don't know what I am.


    I'm theo-confused. Is there a support group?

    There is a theo-confused and theo-certain forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭Attabear


    Do you have a belief in a god, any god?

    Yes or no.


    Nes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Do you have a belief in a god, any god?

    Yes or no.
    No. I do not believe in any god, including chance/luck, which is the god of atheists.


  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭Attabear


    44leto wrote: »
    There is a theo-confused and theo-certain forum.

    But how can there be?

    They're not the same thing!


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    No. I do not believe in any god,
    Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you

    An Atheist!
    including chance/luck, which is the god of atheists.

    That's a pretty absurd thing to say...


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    SeanW wrote: »
    No. I do not believe in any god, including chance/luck, which is the god of atheists.
    Praise be to the lord, a fellow atheist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,625 ✭✭✭Sofaspud


    SeanW wrote: »
    No. I do not believe in any god, including chance/luck, which is the god of atheists.

    Then you are atheist, welcome! And you're free not to have any gods prescribed to you, including chance / luck.
    Nice feeling isn't it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 349 ✭✭talkinyite


    SeanW wrote: »
    No. I do not believe in any god, including chance/luck, which is the god of atheists.

    http://www.chilloutpoint.com/images/2010/04/funniest-owned-images/owned-fails-gallery-07.jpg

    Atheist = no


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Who cares.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Well its a strange one.Im agnostic because I dont see how people can know there is or isnt a god. To me atheists who say there isnt a god are also exercising a form of belief. Thats why im agnostic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,628 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Seachmall wrote: »
    That's a pretty absurd thing to say...
    No, it's not. If Atheists (or Gnostic Atheists if you prefer) are right and there is nothing outside the physical realm then development of advanced sentient lifeforms on one piece of rock in the universe was a very, very, very lucky accident and we humans beat bazillion quadrillion gazillion to 1 odds just to come into existance, let alone develop an advanced civilisation.

    I find this explanation to be as ridiculous as the idea that God created the world in 6 days, 6000 years ago (Abrahamnic religion), or that space aliens populated the planet with miserable people 70,000 years ago (Scientology). It is not that each claim is equally valid, more that each claim to knowledge is equally spurious, and thus, equally worthy of summary rejection, in favour of a default position of asserting only the lack of knowledge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    SeanW wrote: »
    No, it's not. If Atheists are right and there is nothing outside the physical realm then development of advanced sentient lifeforms on one piece of rock in the universe was a very, very, very lucky accident and we humans beat bazillion quadrillion gazillion to 1 odds just to come into existance, let alone develop an advanced civilisation.

    That's a question of Determinism vs. Indeterminism.

    Nothing to do with Atheism.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Attabear wrote: »
    Several pages later and I still don't know what I am. I'm theo-confused. Is there a support group?
    Yes:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=614


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,373 ✭✭✭im invisible


    Pick a card, any card.

    OMG, what are the chances that you picked the one you happen to have in your hand! Etc.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,588 ✭✭✭token56


    SeanW wrote: »
    No, it's not. If Atheists (or Gnostic Atheists if you prefer) are right and there is nothing outside the physical realm then development of advanced sentient lifeforms on one piece of rock in the universe was a very, very, very lucky accident and we humans beat bazillion quadrillion gazillion to 1 odds just to come into existance, let alone develop an advanced civilisation.

    How exactly are you calculating those odds? I dont even think the greatest minds in the world would claim to be able to work out the probability of us existing in a purely materialistic world because we simply dont know enough about the world yet to make such a calculation. So I'm curious as to how you are calculated the odds of bazillion, quadrillon, gazillon to 1, or even how it is you think everything came to be, i.e. matter, planets, stars, the earth, life, etc.


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