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Mahon Tribunal report

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    timesnap wrote: »
    So it is official Bertie Flynn and three CC's names will be put to the executive for expulsion next week.what an end to Bertie's career.
    MM had to do it,still way too little,way to late for FF though.
    Dev must be turning in his grave.

    Seriously it's like banging your head against a brick wall...
    Dev was more blatantly crooked than any of them since. HE STOLE MONEY FROM IRISH PEOPLE AT HOME AND ABROAD.
    He sold shares to the public which were worthless and kept the money generating shares for his family. FRAUDSTER.
    He used patriotism as a lure and if he is turning in his grave it's because he's on a spit in hell.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Einhard wrote: »
    And did they fall for Lowry's tears, or Lawlor's, or Haughey's?

    Or the O' Snodaighs, for that matter.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭timesnap


    Seriously it's like banging your head against a brick wall...
    Dev was more blatantly crooked than any of them since. HE STOLE MONEY FROM IRISH PEOPLE AT HOME AND ABROAD.
    He sold shares to the public which were worthless and kept the money generating shares for his family. FRAUDSTER.
    He used patriotism as a lure and if he is turning in his grave it's because he's on a spit in hell.

    Please tell me in which post i disagree with any of that?
    he kept us in the stone age through his Catholic approved Constitution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    @Sierra Oscar

    Bump.
    jank wrote: »
    Are you and the wider FF parliamentary party going to demand the resignation of those members of the cabinet who sought to underime the tribunal in an effort to collapse it?

    If not, why not and how can you claim reformation and renewal? So Bertie is toxic but those senior members that supported him and attacked the tribunal are of a good enough caliber for FF?

    If yes, where's the statement from Ogra FF or elsewhere?


  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭ElWalrus


    I agree with some previous posters and believe that this corruption is endemic in our society and I would think that almost everyone would have come across even anecdotal evidence of this, from people on the dole doing 'nixers', exaggerated insurance claims, bangers miraculously passing NCT tests, the list goes on.

    As long as people are willing to overlook these 'minor' transgressions as just getting one over on the system, the events of the Mahon tribunal are destined to repeat themselves. Politics at the moment is the perfect breeding ground for attracting this kind of behavior and magnifying it, much in the same way that that sexual predators were drawn to the Catholic Church. The elements are all there, power and influence, lack of accountability, making empty promises that you don't have to deliver on.

    I think there needs to be a zero tolerance policy on corruption in all facets of society, maybe then it won't filter to the top so easily.

    As for the Ahern and Flynn's public statements on the tribunal.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    Former Fianna Fáil minister Padraig Flynn has rejected the findings of the Mahon tribunal which branded him corrupt. "During my lifetime of involvement in politics I have never sought nor have I ever received a corrupt payment," Mr Flynn said in a brief statement today. "I absolutely reject any such finding of this tribunal in that regard."

    Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...#ixzz1pwvyEvgN

    And I absolutely reject his rejection




  • ElWalrus wrote: »
    I agree with some previous posters and believe that this corruption is endemic in our society and I would think that almost everyone would have come across even anecdotal evidence of this, from people on the dole doing 'nixers', exaggerated insurance claims, bangers miraculously passing NCT tests, the list goes on.

    As long as people are willing to overlook these 'minor' transgressions as just getting one over on the system, the events of the Mahon tribunal are destined to repeat themselves.

    Well, well, well said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    Compared to Ahern and Flynn, you could barely find critical discussion of him in the national newspapers today. Given the tribunal has levelled him of 'abusing political power', those are hardly small words, plus being a former Taoiseach, he really has gone under the radar since yesterday.

    Maybe it is down to the other two being viewed as more interesting characters to focus attention on?


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Compared to Ahern and Flynn, you could barely find critical discussion of him in the national newspapers today. Given the tribunal has levelled him of 'abusing political power', those are hardly small words, plus being a former Taoiseach, he really has gone under the radar since yesterday.

    Maybe it is down to the other two being viewed as more interesting characters to focus attention on?


    I suppose he only had a relatively short time and he is kind of old news now, doesn't get much recognition for the North either! Had his fair share of controversies in his day, passports for sale and of course the now obligatory tribunal!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    K-9 wrote: »
    I suppose he only had a relatively short time and he is kind of old news now, doesn't get much recognition for the North either! Had his fair share of controversies in his day, passports for sale and of course the now obligatory tribunal!

    I admire his legacy on the North - did more there than any Taoiseach before or after, but his personal political conduct seems highly dubious.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 724 ✭✭✭jonsnow


    I admire his legacy on the North - did more there than any Taoiseach before or after, but his personal political conduct seems highly dubious.

    Thats more or less how I feel.He was in some ways a good taoiseach and got an awful lot done in a short time but it was his moral laxity which brought him mdown and is now continuing to tarnish his legacy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    ElWalrus wrote: »
    I agree with some previous posters and believe that this corruption is endemic in our society and I would think that almost everyone would have come across even anecdotal evidence of this, from people on the dole doing 'nixers', exaggerated insurance claims, bangers miraculously passing NCT tests, the list goes on.




    On radio Friday morning Joe Higgins said more than once that the FF & FG leaders during the 80's & 90's knew about the illegal payments to their councillors. These comments weren't challenged by anyone one the panel. This implies that Charlie Haughey, Albert Reynolds, Bertie Ahern, Garrett Fitzgerald, Alan Dukes, John Bruton & Ml Noonan (in Joe Higgins words) did nothing about corruption in Dublin. Why?




  • charlemont wrote: »
    Justice will only be served on these guys when their cronies in all the government bodies and justice system are weeded out.

    Glad some other people are picking up on this.

    The Gardai basically colluded with FF. Cabinets appoint Garda promotions from Superintendent right up to Commissioner meaning a party in long enough can fill the management structure of the Gardai with their friends.

    This is the goddamned reason we have no bankers in jail, its the reason we have no politicians in jail despite this report showing that they were corrupt.


    We need huge sweeping reform across the board in Ireland. From the political system to top Gardai right through to all the golden circles sitting on each others boards. Just take a look at who has been on the Central Bank boards since the bubble began and who sat on the banks boards and who they are related to and who they go to dinner with. A sharp journalist will pick up on this. Speaking of media take a look at RTE and how many of them are related to FF members.

    I say .........WIDE SWEEPING REFORM..............


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Glad some other people are picking up on this.

    The Gardai basically colluded with FF. Cabinets appoint Garda promotions from Superintendent right up to Commissioner meaning a party in long enough can fill the management structure of the Gardai with their friends.

    This is the goddamned reason we have no bankers in jail, its the reason we have no politicians in jail despite this report showing that they were corrupt.

    Indeed - this is something which everyone seems to be overlooking when discussing the Mahon Report. I would not necessarily go as far as to say that the Gardai colluded with the government, but it is clear that certain senior Gardai had the belief that the 1989 investigation had to be shelved if they wanted their career to progress. That sort of pressure felt by senior Gardai will be felt so long as promotions to positions from Superintendent and above are political promotions. That quite simply has to be changed, and the whole process needs to be much more transparent. Politicians have too much influence over Gardai and the wider justice system - one need only examine the representation's that TD's make on behalf of individuals under investigation and the likes to recognise that.

    This whole idea of Ray Burke overseeing a corruption investigation as Minister for Defence is also just an absolute joke - it is no surprise the investigation did not proceed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    Surely there is enough to warrant the C.A.B. having a trawl through Bertie's personal finances. He failed to truthfully disclose the source of many of the sums of money associated with him.

    When being investigated by C.A.B. the onus is on the person being investigated to prove the source of the money was legal. Also, the beaurau only need to prove on the balance of probabilities that the money was gained illegally.

    Surely enough there to investigate Bertie, no?


  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭Wider Road


    Pedro K wrote: »
    Surely there is enough to warrant the C.A.B. having a trawl through Bertie's personal finances. He failed to truthfully disclose the source of many of the sums of money associated with him.

    When being investigated by C.A.B. the onus is on the person being investigated to prove the source of the money was legal. Also, the beaurau only need to prove on the balance of probabilities that the money was gained illegally.

    Surely enough there to investigate Bertie, no?



    You're right,
    Investigate Bertie, Flynn, Lawlor, Burke etc.
    But why stop there?
    A year ago we had the Moriarty Report, what do you think should happen there? Should we no be aware of ex- FG Minister Lowry's and O'Brien's findings in that tribunal and send in C.A.B. also?
    Do you agree?
    Did you mention C.A.B. a year ago when the Moriarty report came out?
    Do you agree with Joe Higgins when he said on radio that leaders of FF and FG knew in the 80's and the 90's that there was corruption in the Dublin planning authorities?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭Pedro K


    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're right,
    Investigate Bertie, Flynn, Lawlor, Burke etc.
    But why stop there?
    A year ago we had the Moriarty Report, what do you think should happen there? Should we no be aware of ex- FG Minister Lowry's and O'Brien's findings in that tribunal and send in C.A.B. also?
    Do you agree?
    Did you mention C.A.B. a year ago when the Moriarty report came out?
    Do you agree with Joe Higgins when he said on radio that leaders of FF and FG knew in the 80's and the 90's that there was corruption in the Dublin planning authorities?
    I can't remember if I mentioned C.A.B. on boards when the moriarty report came out or not. I don't post a great deal and my first instinct isn't always to post here upon hearing news.

    I can assure you that I was equally outraged and unsurprised when Moriarty published his findings.

    Also, I never said stop at Bertie.

    I don't know if you're trying to have ago at me in that post or not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 359 ✭✭DJP




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Wider Road wrote: »
    You're right,
    Investigate Bertie, Flynn, Lawlor, Burke etc.
    But why stop there?
    A year ago we had the Moriarty Report, what do you think should happen there? Should we no be aware of ex- FG Minister Lowry's and O'Brien's findings in that tribunal and send in C.A.B. also?
    Do you agree?
    Did you mention C.A.B. a year ago when the Moriarty report came out?
    Do you agree with Joe Higgins when he said on radio that leaders of FF and FG knew in the 80's and the 90's that there was corruption in the Dublin planning authorities?

    The Moriarty report was sent to CAB was it not? It is a joke that absolutely no movement has been made on the Garda investigation, and I doubt any movement will be made either. It could be investigated but it would require an awful lot of probing - and who knows what could emerge.

    And that is where we come back to senior Garda management - do you really think an Assistant Commissioner tasked with overseeing the investigation wants to go ahead and have his men ask the difficult questions, which could potentially annoy current members of the cabinet? Ha, fat chance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 598 ✭✭✭transylman


    For those interested, here is the link to the thread (the only one that was allowed on here) from the period when Ahern was before the tribunal.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055147722


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:

    Per the charter, please do not post links without some explanation of what they contain. Just throwing up a link does nothing to further discussion.
    transylman wrote: »
    For those interested, here is the link to the thread (the only one that was allowed on here) from the period when Ahern was before the tribunal.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055147722

    The issue of past - i repeat, past - moderation of Mahon-related threads has already been addressed on this very thread. You don't need to keep banging that drum.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    @Sierra Oscar

    Bump.


    If not, why not and how can you claim reformation and renewal? So Bertie is toxic but those senior members that supported him and attacked the tribunal are of a good enough caliber for FF?

    If yes, where's the statement from Ogra FF or elsewhere?

    Bump again.

    You going to answer Sierra Oscar or are you going to ignore the question which I think is very valid and relevant.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    jank wrote: »
    Bump again.

    You going to answer Sierra Oscar or are you going to ignore the question which I think is very valid and relevant.

    Oh, I am all flustered by all of this attention! :)

    In regards the comments made towards the tribunal by senior cabinet members, they should have known better and simply not commented at all. However if you actually go back and examine the context of those quotes which have been played over and over during the last few days you will find that most of the cabinet ministers were replying to queries put to them by various journalists - and quite a few of those queries centered around the tribunal in the context of its long running time and exorbitant costs.

    Lets face it, it is an absolute joke that the tribunal spent a decade and a half investigating this matter whilst in the process spending as much as it did to do so. The government came in for a lot of stick in regards this, with the narrative often surrounding the operation of the tribunal rather than what it was investigating. However at the end of the day, government ministers should not have commented publicly in the way they did. Yes they were being asked to give personal opinions by journalists but all the same it should have been recognized that the independence of the tribunal was paramount.

    The important matter however is that Micheál Martin has thoroughly accepted the findings of the tribunal, has moved against those named in the report and perhaps most importantly he has admitted a mistake on his behalf in defending Bertie during the investigation. Undoubtedly it has damaged Micheál Martin's reputation - that is clearly evident as we are discussing it here and now. However I do not think that it will be necessary for him to stand down as leader of the party.

    EDIT: Sorry for not getting back to you on this as quickly as you would have liked - I cannot be here to continually give my own personal view. I ain't no FF spokesperson, keep that in mind!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,229 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Éamon Ó Cuív says files should have been sent dpp upto 15 years ago, now where was he at this point , oh yes, in cabinet, thi s has conveniently only occured to him now



    Fianna Fáil TD Éamon Ó Cuív, speaking on Raidió na Gaeltachta's Iris Aniar this morning in relation to the Mahon Report, said that he could not understand why people were not formally charged with crimes if they were seen to be breaking the law.

    He said that files which related to law-breaking should have been given by the Mahon Tribunal to the Director of Public Prosecutions or to the gardaí up to 15 years ago, and criminal proceedings put in place at that stage.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0326/mahon.html




  • FF have confirmed Bertie has jumped before he was pushed (again). His resignation was received this morning by letter, but they won't comment further as the same matter concerning P. Flynn and the rest of the bunch is still up for discussion at their meeting.

    I can hear the line he'll take steadfastly already, " I chose to leave the party, of my own accord, and with no credible evidence against me" etc. :mad:

    Ugh, it just sickens me. My one hope is that CAB will eventually catch up with him and we'll finally have the last laugh. The burden of proof will lie with HIM when they do, and they'll have no truck with his usual"whip arounds" and "good days at the races" sh1te.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,068 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    The systematic corruption within the political system is just sick.
    [/QUOTE]

    Nice of a ff member to make sure everyone knows it was systemic. :rolleyes:
    But what about the fact three ff leaders and taoisigh have fruad and corruption now associated with them ?
    You need to go back to Lynch to find a ff leader not deemed to have been steeped in unethical, dodgy, probably corrupt dealings who was surrounded by pretty corrupt high ranking members.

    PS I am being generous and not mentioning your last leader seeing that he sold us all out to the IMF. :mad:
    The Moriarty report was sent to CAB was it not? It is a joke that absolutely no movement has been made on the Garda investigation, and I doubt any movement will be made either. It could be investigated but it would require an awful lot of probing - and who knows what could emerge.

    And how long ago was the bank guarantee and the revelations about Anglo/INBS, the Anglo share support scheme, etc ?
    How long ago was it that certain legal professionals in this country were found to have acted illegally obtaining mortgages ?
    How many ponzi scheme operators have been discovered in Ireland yet none have faced prosecution ?
    Do you have any idea how slow our system works investigating anything remotely related to white collar crime ?
    It is a joke.
    And that is where we come back to senior Garda management - do you really think an Assistant Commissioner tasked with overseeing the investigation wants to go ahead and have his men ask the difficult questions, which could potentially annoy current members of the cabinet? Ha, fat chance.

    I know it might annoy one ministers brother. :D

    As regards seeking a full fruad corruption investigation into the awarding of the mobile phone license be careful what you wish for.
    Much as I would like to see lowry and o'brien get their ars** kicked, the fallout in terms of lawsuits flying from the other tenderers would not be something the taxpayers of this country could now afford.

    BTW seeing as you are doing such a good job of reminding us of how lowry was a part of a Fine Gael/Labour/DL government I think people should be reminded he got a very nice taxpayer funded deal in order to support a ff led government.

    Obviously he wasn't tranished enough then to be accepted by ff. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭barney4001


    the only people this tribunal will benefit are the solicitors involved in it,what a waste of public funds


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,113 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    barney4001 wrote: »
    the only people this tribunal will benefit are the solicitors involved in it,what a waste of public funds

    Go on then, share your cost/benefit analysis with us showing how much it cost, and how much it brought into the state coffers


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Dodge wrote: »
    Go on then, share your cost/benefit analysis with us showing how much it cost, and how much it brought into the state coffers


    All the Tribuanl has done is highlight how stupid we are as a nation. We voted the fkers election after election and now we are being bullied by big Phil. What has he to hide? He suppressed an enquiry into his own constituency.

    Nothing has changed or will cahnge.


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