Currently closed lines you'd like to see re-opened

eth0 · 22-10-2011 11:23pm #1

Seeing the heavy opposition to a certain one being re-opened are there any that people have a more positive attitude towards? Or should they all be made into cycle paths?

CIE · 22-10-2011 11:32pm

The "heavy opposition" is only successful propaganda-mongering. Kinda like the second votes on the Treaties of Nice and Lisbon.

When the funds for roads go dry, then they'll be begging for all of them back, and they'll be kicking themselves for not keeping the four-axle GMs (which could have been rebuilt almost an infinite number of times). I kind of favour Inny Junction to Cavan after the former MGWR line to Navan, myself...

Jehuty42 · 23-10-2011 12:22am

I'd much rather see new lines built to modern standards, with proper alignments between major centres of population. I'd like to see rebuilds and expansions of the Dublin commuter network, the area that carries the most passengers and makes the most money. Four-tracking of the Northern Line. Grade separated junctions at key points. Dublin Underground. Electrification. Removal of level crossings.

If an old line is to be reopened, it should be "in spirit". As in, a new alignment designed between the two endpoints to serve any areas inbetween that warrant it, new stations where needed and no old stations where not needed. As I see it, there was a reason these lines were closed in the past, and that should not be ignored. The reason may still be valid today.

eth0 · 23-10-2011 12:29am

Jehuty42 wrote: »

I'd much rather see new lines built to modern standards, with proper alignments between major centres of population. I'd like to see rebuilds and expansions of the Dublin commuter network, the area that carries the most passengers and makes the most money. Four-tracking of the Northern Line. Grade separated junctions at key points. Dublin Underground. Electrification. Removal of level crossings.

If an old line is to be reopened, it should be "in spirit". As in, a new alignment designed between the two endpoints to serve any areas inbetween that warrant it, new stations where needed and no old stations where not needed. As I see it, there was a reason these lines were closed in the past, and that should not be ignored. The reason may still be valid today.

It may be still valid today, or it might not depending on population changes. New direct services would be nice but CPO's are a pain and nobody wants to do them anymore. Some re-alignment might be possible here and there along old lines but the days of building brand new ones from scratch is over I'd say

Jehuty42 · 23-10-2011 12:40am

eth0 wrote: »

It may be still valid today, or it might not depending on population changes.

Yep, but that is something that should be looked at very very closely before any decision is made.

eth0 wrote: »

New direct services would be nice but CPO's are a pain and nobody wants to do them anymore. Some re-alignment might be possible here and there along old lines but the days of building brand new ones from scratch is over I'd say

Indeed, maybe they are over. But as I see it the only way to get a return on the investment in opening a railway line is to spend the money, do the hard work and make it a modern relevant line from day one. It's insane that railways should be constrained by the boundaries set up in the 19th century. Either do the job fully and to the highest standard or don't do it at all, since it seems that once a line is built, it'll be hanging around for the next hundred or so years. It should be as future proof as it can, and damn the expense.

SeanW · 23-10-2011 2:21am

The "heavy opposition" is only successful propaganda-mongering. Kinda like the second votes on the Treaties of Nice and Lisbon.

If you're referring to the Western Snail Corridor I should think that the shambles of the current Limerick Galway services (which between Athenry and Ennis has FEWER passengers than Waterford-Rosslare had when it closed) ... does anyone really think that building the "Social Justice Express" through Mayo (on twisty, hilly victorian tramways, the line above Athenry was built as a series of Light Railways) is going to be a good idea?

There are lines I would like to see reopened.

Limerick-Rosslare, including the recently decommissioned Waterford-Rosslare line, should be packaged up and leased to a private railway. Irish rail never wanted to run these services and from what I've read they did everything they could to scare passengers away. Yet it still carried more passengers than Ennis-Athenry. Time to take CIE/Irish Rail out of the equation where (what's left of) Limerick-Rosslare is concerned.
Pace-Navan.

Obviously though there need to be new railways where demand (i.e. people who would actually use the service) dictates, cheifly the Dublin Metro North, DART Underground and new Luas lines in Dublin, maybe Cork and Galway.

corktina · 23-10-2011 9:36am

you see it as opposition to the re-opening of the WRC when it is nothing of the sort.

All the opposition I have seen on Boards (including my own) has been to the WAY it has been done. Re-instating a winding slow indirect line just because it used to be there instead of going the extra (few) miles to build a modern relevant railway.

As it is the money spent has been wasted and the proof is there for all to see in the usage figures. An average of 9 passengers (or two taxi loads) per train, using a service slower and more expensive than the express coach put on to compete with it.

Any money invested in the future should (after very careful scrutiny) be spent on improving radically InterCity (to compete with the motorways) and increasing the commuter capacity, mainly in Dublin but also in Cork and also Limerick and Galay to an extent

dermo88 · 23-10-2011 12:15pm

For me:

On Intercity:

(a) A more direct line from Dublin to Derry "filling in" the gap in the Northwest, going via Navan (ex MGWR formation), then from there to Monaghan (Branch for Enniskillen), then Omagh-Strabane-Derry.

(b) Metro North to be full 1600mm gauge, and running from Stephens Green-Dublin Airport-Balbriggan, providing a "High Speed" alternate route to Drogheda, Dundalk and Belfast. The High speed limited stop services to Dublin Airport-Balbriggan-Drogheda-Dundalk-Newry-Portadown-Belfast would carry a premium fare and relieve congestion on the Northern Line from Connolly-Balbriggan.

(c) If only Harcourt Street - Bray had been rebuilt to DART standards. Then it would interact better with (b). Still.....we're stuck with it.

(d) Electrification of all suburban routes from Dublin. Reopening a spur to Naas as an end point for DART.

(e) Reinstating Double tracking on Dublin-Galway via Mullingar, to the condition it was pre 1927. That was the standard it was built to in the first place.

Cookie_Monster · 23-10-2011 1:40pm

sure I'd love to see them all reopen, but failing that any line that a private self funded company can come onto with a proper business plan should be considered. IE needs to be axed from rail control at this point and infrastructure splits from stock and routing.

n97 mini · 23-10-2011 1:42pm

All 30 tram lines that covered Dublin.

And Cork's tramways too.

dmcronin · 25-10-2011 11:29am

The Cork, Blackrock and Passage for sure. A commuter line before the word 'commuter' was invented.

corktina · 25-10-2011 12:33pm

dmcronin wrote: »

The Cork, Blackrock and Passage for sure. A commuter line before the word 'commuter' was invented.

Probably would be reasonably sucessfull on a LUAS type basis but only as far as Carrigaline Id imagine. Would need to share its trackbed with a very popuilar footpath though and need a new bridge as the original over the harbour inlet near DOuglas has been replaced with a footbridge.

Quite doable and not too dear.

Also there could be a LUAS from the P&R that Isnt there yet near the tunnel via Heuston, the quays, western rd UCC CUH and CIT to Ballincollig. Also doable wuite cheaply if we had any money.

dmcronin · 25-10-2011 12:49pm

The truncations with bypasses etc around Carrigaline would be problematic, as well as the missing bridge just beyond. The former double track section could possibly be shared with walkers/cyclists.

As a footpath it's well signposted on the Carrigaline-Crosser section. There's nothing to indicate its presence from Albert Rd./Pairc Ui Choimh (sp?) surrounds. Would make a nice extended trail for visitors with a little joined-up thinking.

corktina · 25-10-2011 1:39pm

absolutely but you know road crossings arent really a problem if you think of a LUAS crossing as just being another phase in the traffic light sequence. In any case I don't think there are any really major crossing to contend with. The Road to the ferry port N28 before carrigaline and the relief road near the town. I don't see a need to go beyond Carrigaline. The whole section could be shared with the trams, its really not a problem integrating the two modes.

I dont know where the footpath starts but it certainly is there and in great condition passing Blackrock and Mahon and across the estuary

dmcronin · 25-10-2011 3:17pm

It starts at the junction of Centre Park Rd/Monaghan Rd.
No signage. Breaks at Pairc Ui Caoimh and restarts at the eastern end through to Rochestown. Stops at Rochestown station and commences at the road to Hop Island and on to Passage West. Think it starts again after Monkstown until approach to Raffeen. Route overgrown from there to Carrigaline.

dowlingm · 25-10-2011 4:55pm

A pedestrian way is great but given the traffic around Mahon (especially Mahon Point) now it's a pity it couldn't be either a bendybusway or a LUAS which could also have spurred the now stalled redevelopment on the south docklands.

n97 mini · 26-10-2011 4:50pm

Not a closed line as such.

Re-open Glasnevin Station and run a proper (electric) service on the Maynooth line.

Rud · 26-10-2011 8:48pm

Ideally the line i would like to see open again is the old Wolfhill branch line at the end of my hometown station in Athy.It would be great if Tegral ran cement trains on this line and out through the station again but of course that will never ever happen especially as there's plans to put a relief road down part of the old line but that might never happen either.

By the way does anybody have pictures of the cement trains on this line by any chance or know of any links to pictures??

Niles · 26-10-2011 9:26pm

Rud wrote: »

Ideally the line i would like to see open again is the old Wolfhill branch line at the end of my hometown station in Athy.It would be great if Tegral ran cement trains on this line and out through the station again but of course that will never ever happen especially as there's plans to put a relief road down part of the old line but that might never happen either.

By the way does anybody have pictures of the cement trains on this line by any chance or know of any links to pictures??

There's one here, at least I assume this was taken on the branch.

http://www.irrs.ie/Journal%20149/149%20Operations.htm

roundymac · 27-10-2011 10:46am

Youghal section of the Middleton line reinstated.

Monty Burnz · 27-10-2011 10:53am

dmcronin wrote: »

The Cork, Blackrock and Passage for sure. A commuter line before the word 'commuter' was invented.

Did that line originally go all the way out to Crosshaven, through Carrigaline? That would be a superb facility, taking urban folks out to the seaside and commuters into the city - I don't know if the passenger numbers would merit the expense though. Something more like a large tram might do the business though.

Edit: ah yes, just saw the map on this page...

corktina · 27-10-2011 12:04pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

. Something more like a large tram might do the business though.

...

or a bus....

Monty Burnz · 27-10-2011 12:06pm

corktina wrote: »

or a bus....

I'm thinking of something a little more comfortable, a little faster, and a lot more punctual than a bus. Does anybody forced to use a bus view it as anything other than a misery?

corktina · 27-10-2011 12:30pm

hardly likely that anyone would spend millions reinstating a line like this for an occasional tramload of holidaymakers when it could be done now for almost nothing.

Monty Burnz · 27-10-2011 12:48pm

corktina wrote: »

hardly likely that anyone would spend millions reinstating a line like this for an occasional tramload of holidaymakers when it could be done now for almost nothing.

It wouldn't be for holiday makers, it would be for the thousands of commuters who do the daily grind from Carrigaline and environs into the city every day. If the line went all the way out to Crosshaven, so much the better - that would be a social amenity rather than the purely functional one of shifting workers and students from the town to the city.

You can see the old station and platform in centre of picture here, oddly enough still more or less in the centre of the town (although an almighty walk from the outskirts, which would be an issue I guess for a tram/train line).

http://maps.google.be/maps?q=carrigaline&hl=en&ll=51.818156,-8.388458&spn=0.002019,0.004823&sll=50.805935,4.432983&sspn=4.228333,9.876709&vpsrc=6&hnear=Carrigaline,+County+Cork,+Ireland&t=h&z=18

corktina · 27-10-2011 1:07pm

the Crosshaven bit which I assumed you were referring to is very rural and there would be few commuters from there. I have already said that perhaps the line as far as Carrigaline might have potential.

This line is in fact remarably intact seeing as it closed around 80 years ago. Much of the bit beyond Carrigaline is a well-used footpath

roundymac · 27-10-2011 2:10pm

Judgeing by the remaining bridge/embankments the carrigaline/Crosser section was considerbly raised. If you look at the bit by Lidl supermarket roundabout you will see the height of the embankment. Also at Drake's pool you can see the remains of bridge where the line crossed the road. Across the road from the RCYC if you look up past the garden centre you will see the remains if the viaduct,what ever chance you have of the Carrigaline/Cork section reopening you can forget about Crosshaven.:cool:

dermo88 · 27-10-2011 6:08pm

roundymac

Good to see you here on the board, another good poster from IRN. Well, Cork commuter services certainly did get hit pretty hard all the way from the 1930's to the 1960's.

I think its a case that Cork having different termini and different operating systems doomed it in the long term. Capwell as a Terminus for both Cork and Macroom services and the lines out to Midleton and Cobh would serve the city centre better.

The money to improve and invest the system also did not exist. I used to....when I was younger compare Ireland to Switzerland/Austria/Germany/France. It was an incredibly naive approach in the broader scheme of things, but looking at the bigger picture, I realised, it was one thing to build, quite another to maintain. There also was not the money around to do it, as Ireland was quite a poor country compared to its continental counterparts.

There may also be a difference in sentiment towards rail transport, and possibly.....in my eyes anyway, a lot of lip service. The towns, and county councillors, local politicians and who ever else WANT the service, but when it comes to maintaining and paying for it, won't shell out a cent towards it. Thats a matter for central government in Dublin.

The words of Liam StJohn Devlin carry through:

In Britain the passengers pay.
In Europe the government pays.
In Ireland noone pays.

This was when he was going cap in hand to get money from the Department of Finance to quite literally save Dublin suburban services in the 1970's, when they were an absolute shambles due to continued lack of investment and massive operational losses. This was down to successive governments who listened to the likes of Sean D Barrett and took his word as gospel.

I was never so fanatical to say "reopen all". Thats the kind of romantic view peddled by the likes of Brian Guckian who in my personal opinion is quite mislead, and maybe even insular. Its a case of being pragmatic. Certainly, without the track formation being submerged by the Lee Hydroelectric project, Cork to Macroom would thrive today. Waterford to Tramore is another possible case.

But they are'nt there. Its nice to indulge in the hypothetical "what if". But another "what if" is....

What if Ireland had been allowed to buy GM/Nohabs in the first place.

Bullnose locomotives......drools.....(better clean my mouth lads)

Currently closed lines you'd like to see re-opened

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