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‘OCCUPY Wall Street’ protestors on Dame Street

  • 09-10-2011 12:45am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭


    Was just reading about this. Their 4 demands are...
    1. that the IMF and ECB “stay out of our affairs”
    2. that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted
    3. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”
    4. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland.

    The usual suspects were commenting on the Journal piece I was reading with the usual bull. My thoughts...
    1. Nice idea… would have also been a nice idea if the FF government we repeatedly elected had not given a blanket bank guarantee in 2008. Ship well sailed – Maybe the protesters have a time machine.
    2. Great. The problem is we’re spending 20 billion a year more than we take in, in tax. I suppose someone else should pay that for us too. Or perhaps we should immediately cut that money now and screw the poor and needy.
    3. We’ve issued, I believe, 7(??) licences out or 100 odd at a discounted rate. We have in our history landed a total of 0 oil and currently the Corrib field has landed 0 gas. Given that oil companies are greedy profit driven animals you’d think they’d be taking our hands off since they are getting such an amazing deal for squillions of oil/gas. I dunno almost seems like the figures we see are not true.
    4. We just had an election. Perhaps though people should reflect on who they have been voting for over the years.

    Why is it so difficult to have an honest debate in this country? I'm all for protests as such but this is just untrue or crap.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Wouldn't it be nice if they were calling for real reform of the financial sector instead of pie in the sky based on myths and kneejerkery?

    ah well,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    washman3 wrote: »
    Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

    I'll be prouder to say 'we' instead of 'they'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    PomBear wrote: »
    I'll be prouder to say 'we' instead of 'they'.

    Are you part of that protest? if you are you should be proud.
    And shame on the rest of us. SHEEP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    washman3 wrote: »
    Are you part of that protest? if you are you should be proud.
    And shame on the rest of us. SHEEP.

    Afraid not, I could do a few things in Dublin this week but ironically, can't afford the bus fare but have done a fair bit and alot more than the average citizen to oppose the austerity, bank bailouts, IMF/EU/Troika etc. and will continue to do as much as my means allow me.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    washman3 wrote: »
    Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

    In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    washman3 wrote: »
    Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

    "We have to do something!"

    "This is something"

    "Lets do that!"

    Nate


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    In 30 years time they may not necessarily be proud of having done something pointless.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Better than effectively nothing at all.

    "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    PomBear wrote: »
    Better than effectively nothing at all.

    "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein

    And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

    It was a nice enough little protest, although it initially looked like a street act (and had about the same size crowd), but it's about as useful as the male nipple.

    The Irish financial industry, like the US financial industry, is not merely opaque and unaccountable, it is, again like the US financial industry, treated as a sacred cow by the Irish government. It has been poorly regulated and allowed to live not only beyond its own means but on ours, while the economic policy of our country is dictated by an equally deferential response to the power of the international markets.

    And what do we get? Student rhetoric, a demand that something that doesn't even exist in the form believed by the protesters is "returned to the people", and a childish protest that we don't want to pay the State's debts. This is cluelessness of a high order. It's a typical Irish version of an international protest, with all the meaningful content replaced with some kind of ignorant whinge - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    It's only better than nothing if you've nothing better to do.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭SouperComputer


    Pombar, im sorry. Its not better than nothing at all, in fact its probably WORSE becase their "demands" are idiotic. Washman the way I see it, a smaller group of under-informed, overly-vocal sheep with too much time on their hands gathered together today in "protest".

    People can defend it anyway they want with witty soundbites, revolutionary quotes and the age old throwback of "well what did you do?" but this protest is nothing to be proud of IMO.
    Might as well protest and "demand" blood from a stone. Same thing, drunk with idealism to the point of idiocy therefore the message is lost.

    I'm all for visionary people fighting for change, but this isn't a vision, its dillusion. If you expect change, you at least need to display a basic understanding of the system as it stands, otherwise you look like an eejit.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Pombar, im sorry. Its not better than nothing at all, in fact its probably WORSE becase their "demands" are idiotic. Washman the way I see it, a smaller group of under-informed, overly-vocal sheep with too much time on their hands gathered together today in "protest".

    People can defend it anyway they want with witty soundbites, revolutionary quotes and the age old throwback of "well what did you do?" but this protest is nothing to be proud of IMO.
    Might as well protest and "demand" blood from a stone. Same thing, drunk with idealism to the point of idiocy therefore the message is lost.

    I'm all for visionary people fighting for change, but this isn't a vision, its dillusion. If you expect change, you at least need to display a basic understanding of the system as it stands, otherwise you look like an eejit.

    Many people do have an understanding, I have an understanding, many people on that protest have an understanding, I can vouch for that even if some have views different from my own.

    It probably won't get the IMF/EU out but we have to do something, anything. Standing up and saying no is one of the ways of doing that.

    If we were all to lie down and do nothing, we'll never know but things might be worse. If things do get worse, this or something else can be the spark the ignites a whole nation to stand up and say no, but the fact that it's there and people are doing their bit says something and will certainly should that spark ever ignite something larger.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    And the world will definitely not be saved by people chasing unrealistic and/or imaginary goals in Dame Street.

    It was a nice enough little protest, although it initially looked like a street act (and had about the same size crowd), but it's about as useful as the male nipple.

    The Irish financial industry, like the US financial industry, is not merely opaque and unaccountable, it is, again like the US financial industry, treated as a sacred cow by the Irish government. It has been poorly regulated and allowed to live not only beyond its own means but on ours, while the economic policy of our country is dictated by an equally deferential response to the power of the international markets.

    And what do we get? Student rhetoric, a demand that something that doesn't even exist in the form believed by the protesters is "returned to the people", and a childish protest that we don't want to pay the State's debts. This is cluelessness of a high order. It's a typical Irish version of an international protest, with all the meaningful content replaced with some kind of ignorant whinge - a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    It's only better than nothing if you've nothing better to do.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    Won't repost most of what I said in the last post but if you look at the history of protest, it has central beliefs that the people are the ones that hold the power to change this nation and what makes it, Democracy 101.

    You talk as if the international markets are something Ireland has to adhere to and you're probably right there but the fact is, the people of Ireland have no right to dictated by IMF/EU/Troika and the fact is, protests like this, no matter how big or small are full of people who believe this, they have every right to do so. Instead of being negative, why not support protests? why not encourage others to get out and do something? You never know, something might click, a few hundred might not change anything, a few hundred thousand might and why not keep trying to do so, then we have a huge increase in our possibility of change, whatever that might be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭SouperComputer


    My hope would be that it sparks something "smarter" first, then perhaps something larger at a later stage.
    Regardless of their individual views, they banded together to support and rally for "demands" that are just plain out of touch and border on idiocy.
    I will support (and have supported) protests that are worthwhile, based on a current real-world situation with a view to achieving attainable, measurable goals.
    I have not, and will not support a protest "just coz".

    You feel the protest is worthwhile for the reasons you outlined, and I dont for the reasons I outlined. I think its fair to say that we'll have to agree to disagree. Let's just leave it at that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    My hope would be that it sparks something "smarter" first, then perhaps something larger at a later stage.
    Regardless of their individual views, they banded together to support and rally for "demands" that are just plain out of touch and border on idiocy.

    What would be your idea of something smarter?

    Also i'll talk about the demands, no doubt they are huge but they are very respectable views, just because they are out of touch, why not try? there's nothing to lose here and to be honest just because they have really a snowballs chance of actually happening, it's no excuse of not giving it a go because if it's achieved, it will be worth it and incase you haven't noticed, the people of Ireland are not being listened and are being dictated to, we are clutching at straws for something to turn that tide so why not give it a go? To do nothing is to all in all accept this and accept all that comes from it an d for me, I couldn't live with myself not standing up for myself, my community and my country.

    Anyways i'll analysis a few of the demands
    that the IMF and ECB “stay out of our affairs”
    Very fair if you look at damage the IMF has done in other countries, it's also about sovereignty, the IMF/ECB won't support us as a nation and while we're repaying them, how are going to rebuild as a nation? Most, if not all, of Ireland's most astute economists, left and right wing, support default by the way, to say that is bordering on idiocy isn't really acceptable. My view is to ignore all these economists is to border on idiocy and to do so, will lead to this country's economic demise.
    that the bank debt taken on by Ireland’s government be lifted

    It's simply undemocratic and unfair to allow Irish families to be burdened by the poor gambling of effectively private businesses. I don't go into Paddy Power, if I have a losing bet and demand my money back. It's as simple as that and to not insult democracy, I don't need to explain further.

    1. that offshore oil and gas reserves be “returned to the people”
    Again, the natural resources whatever they be should always be used for the good of the Irish people, it's, again, fair and democratic. No point in getting into a debate on its worth and Shell's dealings further as to not derail the thread and of which threads, are in abundance.
    1. “real participatory democracy” be established in Ireland.
    Couldn't hurt, democracy is there to ensure the people's will is pursued by it's representation in Government. It hasn't been in terms of the IMF/ECB bailout or the bank bailout, that was wring in my opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Wouldn't it be nice if they were calling for real reform of the financial sector instead of pie in the sky based on myths and kneejerkery?

    ah well,
    Scofflaw

    How about a simple solution :rolleyes:

    no bailouts of private companies/banks

    If the financial sector decide to open up a casino and then it burns down, let them burn with it

    Speaking of "reforms" whatever happened to reform of the public service and quangos?
    has there been any "reform" in our regulator/cb ?
    what is to stop these guys collecting their paychecks and not turning up for work like they did in the past???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    washman3 wrote: »
    Al least they can say in 30yrs time that they tried to do something.

    They can start by voting with their wallets and withdrawing their money from the financial sector.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Went down to the protest yesterday, there were about 30 people there at 2pm the crowd kept getting bigger by 3 there was 150-200 I hear more came after that. There was 8 tents there last night. There is a human microphone system in place. Anyone can go down there and say what they think, I saw a few very articulate people speaking. Some of the geniuses on boards should go down there and tell them what to do since its open to everyone. Sickening to see people slagging them off here like another poster said at least they will be able to say they tried.
    The IMF representative in Dublin has an office in the central bank so he will be seeing it. The movement has had some success in the US, Ben Bernanke said he doesn't blame to protesters, Obama said similar. Even if this results in some legislation to regulate corporate donations, or the financial sector it will have achieved something. This thing is only going to get bigger, there is a larger march planned for next saturday.
    In November Ireland is paying 700million in unsecured guaranteed Anglo bonds. That is money not even covered by the guarantee. If that doesn't make you mad I don't know what will.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    20Cent wrote: »
    Went down to the protest yesterday, there were about 30 people there at 2pm the crowd kept getting bigger by 3 there was 150-200 I hear more came after that. There was 8 tents there last night. There is a human microphone system in place. Anyone can go down there and say what they think, I saw a few very articulate people speaking. Some of the geniuses on boards should go down there and tell them what to do since its open to everyone. Sickening to see people slagging them off here like another poster said at least they will be able to say they tried.
    The IMF representative in Dublin has an office in the central bank so he will be seeing it. The movement has had some success in the US, Ben Bernanke said he doesn't blame to protesters, Obama said similar. Even if this results in some legislation to regulate corporate donations, or the financial sector it will have achieved something. This thing is only going to get bigger, there is a larger march planned for next saturday.

    There is nothing wrong with them protesting, we have this concept of democracy and freedom of speech here (tho severely restrained by backwards laws such as Blasphemy Bill!) provided its non violent and causes no damage to property.
    Like I said earlier if these people believe in what they preach then they can start by withdrawing their money out of the banking system. Yes they can vote with their wallets. Have you @20cent?

    20Cent wrote: »
    In November Ireland is paying 700million in unsecured guaranteed Anglo bonds. That is money not even covered by the guarantee. If that doesn't make you mad I don't know what will.

    I raised the point of why are we paying unsecured bondholders on here many of time. This is what happens when the state to dabble in socialism which you love and decides to socialise losses of private entities. A taste of own medicine 20cent...


  • Registered Users Posts: 80,798 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn


    Theres enough oil and gas off our western shores to make us another Norway, the Corrib field is only chicken feed compared to what's there. My hope is we have the right taxation in place for us to all benefit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Those people went out into the streets and protested about something they actually believe in as opposed to sitting on their back sides whining. The reaction to such an act that has been displayed on this board is quite disheartening in that it demonstrates just how broken the spirit of the Irish people is.

    Whether or not you consider those people to be right or wrong, you must commend them for standing up for themselves. Look at the French, a school recently broke out in a near riot over a rumour that holidays were to be reduced. Putting aside what is and is not needed to sort out Ireland, if the Irish people do not attempt to stand up for themselves then they will be beaten down at every turn.

    For my own efforts, I have to admit that I have never gone out to protest and I am somewhat ashamed at that. To date, my only attempts have been a few articles in a tiny magazine my friend publishes on the jobs initiative. Not much, but I for one don't buy into the belief that the EU, the government and the other powers that be have the interests of the people at heart. The modern state is bought and paid for by the corporations and the mega banks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    PomBear wrote: »
    Better than effectively nothing at all.

    "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything." Einstein
    down-with-this-sort-of-thing1.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    There is nothing wrong with them protesting, we have this concept of democracy and freedom of speech here (tho severely restrained by backwards laws such as Blasphemy Bill!) provided its non violent and causes no damage to property.
    Like I said earlier if these people believe in what they preach then they can start by withdrawing their money out of the banking system. Yes they can vote with their wallets. Have you @20cent?

    What money?
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    I raised the point of why are we paying unsecured bondholders on here many of time. This is what happens when the state to dabble in socialism which you love and decides to socialise losses of private entities. A taste of own medicine 20cent...

    Is there anything more inane than the "U luv socialism" nonsense designed to stifle and kill debate since the McCarty era? That dope smoking pinko liberal hippy Colm McCarthy even says that Ireland has been saddled with an unjustifiable share of the burden in today's sindo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    20Cent wrote: »
    What money?

    That explains alot :D

    20Cent wrote: »
    Is there anything more inane than the "U luv socialism" nonsense designed to stifle and kill debate since the McCarty era? That dope smoking pinko liberal hippy Colm McCarthy even says that Ireland has been saddled with an unjustifiable share of the burden in today's sindo.

    And have I ever claimed otherwise? My position from the start was in opposition to socialisation of debt, failure should not be rewarded and bailed out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭PomBear


    down-with-this-sort-of-thing1.jpg


    Ignorance is bliss, eh?


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    PomBear wrote: »
    Ignorance is bliss, eh?
    Whatever that's supposed to mean. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    PomBear wrote: »
    Won't repost most of what I said in the last post but if you look at the history of protest, it has central beliefs that the people are the ones that hold the power to change this nation and what makes it, Democracy 101.

    You talk as if the international markets are something Ireland has to adhere to and you're probably right there but the fact is, the people of Ireland have no right to dictated by IMF/EU/Troika and the fact is, protests like this, no matter how big or small are full of people who believe this, they have every right to do so. Instead of being negative, why not support protests? why not encourage others to get out and do something? You never know, something might click, a few hundred might not change anything, a few hundred thousand might and why not keep trying to do so, then we have a huge increase in our possibility of change, whatever that might be.

    I think you've missed the point by quite a wide margin.

    On point 1, we are in a position where we have to adhere to the financial targets laid down by the IMF/EU because the State is in receivership, and they are the receivers. Belly-aching about them being foreign overlords or having no right to "dictate" to "the people of Ireland" is meaningless verbiage - we are up the creek, and they're the only ones providing paddles.

    The alternative to the troika is simple - massive austerity and a market lockout. People calling for it are therefore stupid or deluded, and those who are calling for it because of austerity are downright idiots, because the alternative to the troika's assistance is even more austerity, as can be seen by anyone who's not living in cloud cuckoo land. And the majority of the people of Ireland can apparently see that - they may not like having the troika here, and they may not like having our national receivers setting the terms and conditions, but the absence of widespread protests reflects the recognition that this is pain we brought on ourselves and will have to work through. And that means that the protests will not get the widespread public support they need to be viable, making them another flash in the pan exercise in feeling good because you're sticking it to the man.

    Rejecting the assistance available from the troika doesn't solve any of Ireland's problems - it simply adds new ones. So, even were the protests successful in this aim, they would still be useless or worse than useless.

    On point 2, the bank debt was legally taken on by the legally constituted government of the State. Sure, reduce it if we can, but the government is already trying to do so, so this one strikes me as entirely pointless.

    On point 3, I'm afraid that nationalising Ireland's oil and gas reserves would be another worse than useless stroke. All of the S2S blether about trillions in petroleum reserves is just that, blether. Our known petroleum reserves are miniscule, and we haven't the money or the expertise to spend several years drilling dry holes all over Ireland's shelf. The known and untapped commercially viable reserves (Corrib, that's all) would pay one Anglo promissory note, at the expense of involving ourselves in: (a) a massive legal case against companies with turnovers bigger than Ireland's GDP; and (b) a potential moratorium or cost hike on imports. When the six months or so of gas in Corrib runs out, what then? So that's another one for the cloud-cuckoo protesters.

    On point 4, what's supposed to be meant by "real participatory democracy"? That the public should elect people more in keeping with the preferences of the protesters? Sorry. Or that we should have referendums about everything? On that, we have two populist power-grabs by the executive and legislature tabled for a vote on the same day as the Presidential elections, and both of them will almost certainly pass without any real debate and by large margins. Is that "real participatory democracy"? People voting on complex and potentially far-reaching measures because the sound-bite summary leaves out any potential downsides? Voting for the potential for McCarthy-type tribunals of politicians to sit in judgement over anyone the media make out to be a villain?

    Seriously, there's a lot wrong in this country, and not one bit of it is addressed by these protests. I respect the right of the protesters to protest, I admire their willingness to do it, and I think they're idiots with a programme of idiocy.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Protests like this remind of me of a song called go by the vandals.
    The time has almost come,
    Stand up and be someone
    Finish up with dinner, and join up with the winners I mean for real this time,
    at least just kind of try
    When I say "Go" you say "Go" Go! go! Go! go! Go! go! Go!
    We gotta think it through, I know what we should do
    Let's Go! go! Go! go! Go! go! Go! go!
    Wait right here for now, until we figure how.
    To overthrow the land, and finish our demands
    and Go! go! Go! go! Go! go! Go! go!
    End all our repression, and teach the man a lesson

    Let's talk it through again, and call up all our friends
    together unified- is unity united
    then it's decided we will fight....soon

    Lets fight against this thing we think is bad but don't know enough about to be able to come up with a viable alternative to or even know exactly what we should be protesting against.

    Where on Dame Street is Wall Street :P


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,219 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    thebman wrote: »
    Lets fight against this thing we think is bad but don't know enough about to be able to come up with a viable alternative to or even know exactly what we should be protesting against.

    Indeed, If you are actually going to go the effort of protesting about something, it makes sense to me that you would at least put in SOME effort to understand the issues at play.

    Nate


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

    For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    thebman wrote: »
    Generally people who attend these things do so because they believe the government isn't listening to them screaming they don't want any more cuts or tax increases but the reality is the government is listening and desperately hoping one of the people screaming this has a magic plan to fix it all overnight.

    For some reason, they just won't tell the government that magic plan though. Protesting is only effective if the government isn't listening. The Irish government is listening however. If you have a viable alternative, start a lobby group and go talk to them instead of standing on a cold, wet street.

    And if you want to deal with a complex and large problem, such as the need for reform in the governance of the State, form an NGO and lobby for reform on an ongoing basis. Use protests to highlight the lack of reform.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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