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Grandad Protestant with VERY Irish surname... is this unusual?

  • 20-08-2010 9:46pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭


    Just wondered if there is any history of Catholics changing their religion to Cof I during the Famine perhaps?

    My maternal grandfather's name is an old Irish name found a lot in Cork (McCarthy).

    Grandad's family all remained C of I except him. He converted to Catholicism to marry my Granny. His family are well recorded in the 1901 and 1911 census as being C of I.

    Maybe he was C of I all along. Am still doing the research, but finding it very very difficult to find the records of grandad's father. It's fascinating, but I hope I don't reach a dead end here!


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    No it's not rare at all in northern Ireland it's very common because there is a lot more Protestants , my mothers family are catholic with Scottish surnames and presbyterian ancestors ie grandparents as northern Ireland used used to be nearly 90 percent Protestant so they converted I'd estimate a quarter of Catholics are protestant roots.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    Just wondered if there is any history of Catholics changing their religion to Cof I during the Famine perhaps? ...
    It is by no means unusual.

    For a number of centuries use of the Irish language and the practice of the Catholic religion were outlawed in Ireland under British rule and Catholics were forbidden to own livestock or land and were denied votes, education and representation - a completely disenfranchised people in their native country.

    Underground schools or "hedge schools" were used to educate children and religious education and sacramental practices centered around "mass rocks" in secluded outdoor areas.

    During the famine Protestant proselytisers established soup kitchens to distribute aid to the starving populace; the price of availaing of the food in these kitchens was to convert to Protestantism and to renounce Catholicism. The people were faced with the appaling dilemma; convert or starve with your family. Some converted and remain true to their new religion(s) to this day. Those who converted or took the soup were referred to unkindly as "soupers" at the time. Some who converted dropped the identifiably Irish-Catholic prefixes from their names - e.g. O'Callaghans becoming Callaghans, O'Briens becoming Bryans or in some cases Bryants, McCarthys becoming Carthys or Cartys, etc.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    mathepac wrote: »
    It is by no means unusual.

    For a number of centuries use of the Irish language and the practice of the Catholic religion were outlawed in Ireland under British rule and Catholics were forbidden to own livestock or land and were denied votes, education and representation - a completely disenfranchised people in their native country.

    Underground schools or "hedge schools" were used to educate children and religious education and sacramental practices centered around "mass rocks" in secluded outdoor areas.

    During the famine Protestant proselytisers established soup kitchens to distribute aid to the starving populace; the price of availaing of the food in these kitchens was to convert to Protestantism and to renounce Catholicism. The people were faced with the appaling dilemma; convert or starve with your family. Some converted and remain true to their new religion(s) to this day. Those who converted or took the soup were referred to unkindly as "soupers" at the time. Some who converted dropped the identifiably Irish-Catholic prefixes from their names - e.g. O'Callaghans becoming Callaghans, O'Briens becoming Bryans or in some cases Bryants, McCarthys becoming Carthys or Cartys, etc.


    Did the protestant numbers not fall in the republic?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    owenc wrote: »
    Did the protestant numbers not fall in the republic?

    The Republic has only existed since 1949.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    No I'm talking about that area there's a thing on wikipedia about it


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    owenc wrote: »
    Did the protestant numbers not fall in the republic?
    owenc wrote: »
    No I'm talking about that area there's a thing on wikipedia about it
    Sorry I don't understand the question(s). Do you mean a fall in protestant numbers in Cork or in protestant numbers generally during the famine?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    No it was from the famine onwards all areas in the area of the republic had a significant fall in Protestant numbers and also in ulster but only slight it's rising again now but I don't know if it's rising in ulster??


  • Registered Users Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    Just wondered if there is any history of Catholics changing their religion to Cof I during the Famine perhaps?

    My maternal grandfather's name is an old Irish name found a lot in Cork (McCarthy).

    Grandad's family all remained C of I except him. He converted to Catholicism to marry my Granny. His family are well recorded in the 1901 and 1911 census as being C of I.

    Maybe he was C of I all along. Am still doing the research, but finding it very very difficult to find the records of grandad's father. It's fascinating, but I hope I don't reach a dead end here!

    No, not unusual at all.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    owenc wrote: »
    ... a significant fall in Protestant numbers and also in ulster but only slight it's rising again now but I don't know if it's rising in ulster??
    I wasn't aware of a significant drop in the numbers of Protestants generally at that time but was aware of the tremendous relief works undertaken by (for example) the relatively tiny numbers of Quaker & Heugenot families and the near enough halving of the Catholic population in certain areas. Do you mean Ulster (9 counties) or the gerrymandered Ulster aka Northern Ireland (6 counties)?

    Any links to the wiki or other stats as I've never heard this situation mentioned before? Were the proselytisers then trying to bolster already declining numbers and if so what initiated the decline?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    mathepac wrote: »
    I wasn't aware of a significant drop in the numbers of Protestants generally at that time but was aware of the tremendous relief works undertaken by (for example) the relatively tiny numbers of Quaker & Heugenot families and the near enough halving of the Catholic population in certain areas. Do you mean Ulster (9 counties) or the gerrymandered Ulster aka Northern Ireland (6 counties)?

    Any links to the wiki or other stats as I've never heard this situation mentioned before? Were the proselytisers then trying to bolster already declining numbers and if so what initiated the decline?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_Ireland Read the bit about the protestant decline in the republic, around 1861, that was around the famine, though i think the numbers are rising now. The map shows it declining very fastly! When i say ulster i mean ni. Apparently my county has got a significant loss, its probably due to them ones from donegal coming in! Though my region is 60% protestant, so its very diverse, weird in ni it can change so quick.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    owenc wrote: »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_Ireland Read the bit about the protestant decline in the republic, around 1861, that was around the famine, though i think the numbers are rising now. The map shows it declining very fastly! When i say ulster i mean ni. Apparently my county has got a significant loss, its probably due to them ones from donegal coming in! Though my region is 60% protestant, so its very diverse, weird in ni it can change so quick.

    This sentence is broken!

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Just wondered if there is any history of Catholics changing their religion to Cof I during the Famine perhaps?

    My maternal grandfather's name is an old Irish name found a lot in Cork (McCarthy).

    Grandad's family all remained C of I except him. He converted to Catholicism to marry my Granny. His family are well recorded in the 1901 and 1911 census as being C of I.

    Maybe he was C of I all along. Am still doing the research, but finding it very very difficult to find the records of grandad's father. It's fascinating, but I hope I don't reach a dead end here!

    Not too unusual. If the change occurred during An Gorta Mór 1845-51, they quite possibly "took the soup", were "soupers": http://www.google.ie/#hl=ga&source=hp&q=%22took+the+soup%22&btnG=Cuardach+Google&fp=9846baef42e43791

    If the change occurred prior to this they most probably 'conformed' to the (anglican) Church of Ireland in order to maintain their position in Irish society (under the Penal Laws Catholics were forbidden from owning any property except bogland). 'Conforming' was deemed more acceptable in Irish society as one was protecting their material interests by changing religion. 'Conversion' was, however, much resented in society as somebody who 'converted' did so for theological reasons. This was much less common. Most Irish people wouldn't be aware of this distinction, however.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Dionysus wrote: »
    ... If the change occurred prior to this they most probably 'conformed' to the (anglican) Church of Ireland in order to maintain their position in Irish society (under the Penal Laws Catholics were forbidden from owning any property except bogland). 'Conforming' was deemed more acceptable in Irish society as one was protecting their material interests by changing religion. 'Conversion' was, however, much resented in society as somebody who 'converted' did so for theological reasons. This was much less common. Most Irish people wouldn't be aware of this distinction, however.

    Make note of what this implies about social and financial status: a family with a distinctive Gaelic name that was CoI before the famine was likely to be at least moderately wealthy. This can also apply to "old English" or Anglo-Norman names.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Dionysus wrote: »
    Not too unusual. If the change occurred during An Gorta Mór 1845-51, they quite possibly "took the soup", were "soupers": http://www.google.ie/#hl=ga&source=hp&q=%22took+the+soup%22&btnG=Cuardach+Google&fp=9846baef42e43791

    If the change occurred prior to this they most probably 'conformed' to the (anglican) Church of Ireland in order to maintain their position in Irish society (under the Penal Laws Catholics were forbidden from owning any property except bogland). 'Conforming' was deemed more acceptable in Irish society as one was protecting their material interests by changing religion. 'Conversion' was, however, much resented in society as somebody who 'converted' did so for theological reasons. This was much less common. Most Irish people wouldn't be aware of this distinction, however.

    Did presbyterians ever convert? Apparently one of my mothers families are scottish but they are catholic a way back too 1840, i can't get back any further.... was it ever illegal for presbyterians to convert? Because of the penal laws and all that/.


  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Drummerboy2


    Just wondered if there is any history of Catholics changing their religion to Cof I during the Famine perhaps?

    My maternal grandfather's name is an old Irish name found a lot in Cork (McCarthy).

    Grandad's family all remained C of I except him. He converted to Catholicism to marry my Granny. His family are well recorded in the 1901 and 1911 census as being C of I.

    Maybe he was C of I all along. Am still doing the research, but finding it very very difficult to find the records of grandad's father. It's fascinating, but I hope I don't reach a dead end here!

    Perhaps they were Soupers. Whether a myth or not, many years ago I heard stories that during the famine certain protestant organisations, helped the starving with food but they had to convert to Protestantism to gain access to help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,900 ✭✭✭InTheTrees


    The Irish nobility have been converting to protestantism ever since HenryVIII split with Rome.

    Mostly to hold on to what power and land they possessed I suspect rather than any religious revelation.

    So it would have been common for protestants to be from old Irish families.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    The Irish nobility have been converting to protestantism ever since HenryVIII split with Rome.

    Mostly to hold on to what power and land they possessed I suspect rather than any religious revelation.

    So it would have been common for protestants to be from old Irish families.

    Conforming, conforming. See my last post in this thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Perhaps they were Soupers. Whether a myth or not, many years ago I heard stories that during the famine certain protestant organisations, helped the starving with food but they had to convert to Protestantism to gain access to help.

    It is a myth, there are no documented cases of this ever happening afaik, although some historians will make reference to it for political reasons.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    It is a myth, there are no documented cases of this ever happening afaik, although some historians will make reference to it for political reasons.

    I agree i really don't think that someone converted religion because of soup, what a daft idea!:eek: The protestants are more strict about their religion than catholics when it comes to marrying someone of a different religion and back then even more so, most protestants back then wouldn't marry them unless they converted, some people here are still like that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    owenc wrote: »
    I agree i really don't think that someone converted religion because of soup, what a daft idea!:eek: The protestants are more strict about their religion than catholics when it comes to marrying someone of a different religion and back then even more so, most protestants back then wouldn't marry them unless they converted, some people here are still like that.

    Daft or not, the story is around. I know plenty of protestant/catholic marriages in the Republic and the Protestant clergy made far less of a fuss (i.e. none) than the Catholic....

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    What time period are we talking about here? There seems to be a number of stories mixing together here. At the start of the 20th century there was a papal decree (whose name escapes me) which ordered (roughly) that Protestants had to convert if they planned to marry a Catholic. So before about 1910 this was no issue, after it was, and then later it was probably put to the wayside in a lot of cases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    What time period are we talking about here? There seems to be a number of stories mixing together here. At the start of the 20th century there was a papal decree (whose name escapes me) which ordered (roughly) that Protestants had to convert if they planned to marry a Catholic. So before about 1910 this was no issue, after it was, and then later it was probably put to the wayside in a lot of cases.

    The decree was Ne Temere. It did not actually require the non-Catholic partner to convert; it was usually required that he or she sign an undertaking that the children be brought up as Catholics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    InTheTrees wrote: »
    The Irish nobility have been converting to protestantism ever since HenryVIII split with Rome.

    Mostly to hold on to what power and land they possessed I suspect rather than any religious revelation.

    So it would have been common for protestants to be from old Irish families.

    The Penal laws were only ever aimed at the middle classes. To put it bluntly, if you were poor, the Penal laws would not have affected you, because you wouldn't have owned any land, or any land that was over the size restriction on catholic ownership.

    The same goes for education. Catholics were allowed an education, but the teaching of Catholic doctrine was banned, (Despite the myths about catholics not being allowed an education). If you were poor, you would have been very lucky to have had an education anyway. In addition, the Catholic Church forbade Catholics from attending Protestant schools.

    If you were wealthy, owned land and wanted an education, you had to denounce Catholicism, if you weren't, it made no difference.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    The decree was Ne Temere. It did not actually require the non-Catholic partner to convert; it was usually required that he or she sign an undertaking that the children be brought up as Catholics.

    Which is probably why there has been a decline in the number of Protestants in Ireland. None were driven out, there was just an effective breeding out programme by the RCC.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    The Penal laws were only ever aimed at the middle classes. To put it bluntly, if you were poor, the Penal laws would not have affected you, because you wouldn't have owned any land, or any land that was over the size restriction on catholic ownership.

    The same goes for education. Catholics were allowed an education, but the teaching of Catholic doctrine was banned, (Despite the myths about catholics not being allowed an education). If you were poor, you would have been very lucky to have had an education anyway. In addition, the Catholic Church forbade Catholics from attending Protestant schools.

    If you were wealthy, owned land and wanted an education, you had to denounce Catholicism, if you weren't, it made no difference.

    It's not quite accurate to say that the Penal laws made no difference to the tenant classes. While what you say about who the laws were primarily aimed at is true the consequences for Ireland were broader. The Catholic upper classes were decimated - and just about eliminated.

    The ultimate consequences of the Penal laws meant that Catholic ownership of land passed to what became a Protestant elite, disconnected culturally from their tenants. In European societies the relationship of Lord to tenant was an important one in the cohesion of society. A certain degree of trust was essential to the smooth workings of this relationship - as it was in England to a large extent. In Ireland there was a break in this relationship - each regarded the other as 'alien' and 'other' and it was the clergy of the Catholic Church who filled the gap of the missing Catholic aristocracy for the Irish tenant class.

    Added to this were the laws - during the early period of the Penal Code - that all Catholic Bishops were ordered to leave Ireland. Petty laws also against "Catholic assemblies" also played into the notion that the Protestant Parliament and new elite were not only of an alien religion but anti-Catholic. It all made the bond between tenant and priest closer.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MarchDub wrote: »
    It's not quite accurate to say that the Penal laws made no difference to the tenant classes. While what you say about who the laws were primarily aimed at is true the consequences for Ireland were broader. The Catholic upper classes were decimated - and just about eliminated.

    The ultimate consequences of the Penal laws meant that Catholic ownership of land passed to what became a Protestant elite, disconnected culturally from their tenants. In European societies the relationship of Lord to tenant was an important one in the cohesion of society. A certain degree of trust was essential to the smooth workings of this relationship - as it was in England to a large extent. In Ireland there was a break in this relationship - each regarded the other as 'alien' and 'other' and it was the clergy of the Catholic Church who filled the gap of the missing Catholic aristocracy for the Irish tenant class.

    Added to this were the laws - during the early period of the Penal Code - that all Catholic Bishops were ordered to leave Ireland. Petty laws also against "Catholic assemblies" also played into the notion that the Protestant Parliament and new elite were not only of an alien religion but anti-Catholic. It all made the bond between tenant and priest closer.

    EDIT: change the protestant bit tay church of ireland as presbyterians where treated the same as catholics so its not right to say that, or even say the established church. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    owenc wrote: »
    EDIT: change the protestant bit tay church of ireland as presbyterians where treated the same as catholics so its not right to say that, or even say the established church. ;)

    No - the penal laws governing Presbyterians were different. They were never treated the same. Catholcis were seen as much more of a threat to the establishment. If you check the original sources you can easily see this. The Act to Prevent the Growth of Popery of 1704 had far worse economic consequences for Catholics than anything that applied to Presbyterians. Land ownership, for example, was not outlawed or denied to Presbyterians. The almost total economic exclusion of Catholics did not apply to Presbyterians - but Presbyterians were for awhile excluded from Parliament and the Army. And The Toleration Act of 1719 applied only to Presbyterians, not Catholics.

    I'm not saying that there weren't penal laws that applied to Presbyterians, only that they were on a different level - and involved different legislation - to those that applied to Catholics.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 9,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭convert


    owenc wrote: »
    No I'm talking about that area there's a thing on wikipedia about it

    There's a lot of dodgey stuff on the net about religion in Ireland during the early modern period, so I'd advise you to look at more reputable websites and books, rather than just relying on wikipedia.
    Dionysus wrote: »
    Conforming, conforming. See my last post in this thread.

    There's quite a lot of debate concerning conversion by Catholics to the established religion (CoI) during the eighteenth century. Conformity tends to suggest that those Catholics who changed their religion actually conformed to their new religion, whereas conversion suggests that they changed religion but didn't actually adhere to all aspects of the 'new' religion and its beliefs and practices.

    This is something that Bartlett has re-iterated quite a bit when discussing conversion and conformity, as has McGrath, Wall, Kelly, Brown, Connolly, Cullen to name but a few.

    It's also a topic that tends to open a can of worms as the reason behind the conversion needs to be established: was it for religious reasons? Was it to protect the family estate? Or was it to ensure that the estate would pass to a son intact, rather than having to share the property with his brother(s)? Was there a family feud in place or was it a form of collusion?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Which is probably why there has been a decline in the number of Protestants in Ireland. None were driven out, there was just an effective breeding out programme by the RCC.

    Naw you mean a programme where the catholic church stole protestants!:mad: I know loads of catholics who should be protestants and some of my catholic ancestors where presbyterians but the catholic church insisted that they would convert, i think they should be sorry for that, no harm to them i mean how would you like it if you were told to convert to another religion,i don't think you'd like it.;)


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    MarchDub wrote: »
    No - the penal laws governing Presbyterians were different. They were never treated the same. Catholcis were seen as much more of a threat to the establishment. If you check the original sources you can easily see this. The Act to Prevent the Growth of Popery of 1704 had far worse economic consequences for Catholics than anything that applied to Presbyterians. Land ownership, for example, was not outlawed or denied to Presbyterians. The almost total economic exclusion of Catholics did not apply to Presbyterians - but Presbyterians were for awhile excluded from Parliament and the Army. And The Toleration Act of 1719 applied only to Presbyterians, not Catholics.

    I'm not saying that there weren't penal laws that applied to Presbyterians, only that they were on a different level - and involved different legislation - to those that applied to Catholics.

    Yea, but did you not forget about parliament and rules over marriage, and presbyterians had to pay all their money to the church of ireland as well as get married there (i have to check church of ireland registers for my presbyterian ancestors) , the church of ireland got everything. Did the methodist church get affected by anything.


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