Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)
Comments
-
Exactly. Everybody is going to hell without intervention by God. And you have a choice.joseph brand wrote: »Well no, I think it is because I have a hard time accepting any justice system that says because I lied to my parents (something they seem to have gotten over btw) I'm going to face an eternity of suffering and torture. That might be rational to you, but I would wonder how much that is based on self hatred than actual appeals to justice.
The Christian concept of hell seem far more like a made up concept to scare people into joining a cult that conveniently offered people away of avoiding this eternal suffering but only if you accept that the cult leader was God.
Let's not forget:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife.
AND
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods.
So, just by 'thinking' you'd like to spend some quality time with your neighbours wife, or 'thinking' that you'd like your garden to look like your neighbours, it's HELL for you. Seems legit. :rolleyes:
OR
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain.
Get stuck in traffic, stand on some Lego or see your team hit the crossbar and it's Sin-city.
Everybody is going to hell, by the church's standards. May aswell live your life, or not, it's your choice.
So you can choose to accept the Gospel or not, and live your life accordingly. It's your choice.0 -
Exactly. Everybody is going to hell without intervention by God.
Seems a bit difficult to believe though, doesn't it. I mean do we lock people up for disrespecting their parents? Or having sex? Even short term. The idea that everyone is deserving of eternal suffering as punishment for how they lead their lives on Earth (most people leading relatively simple lives) seems very far fetched.0 -
Seems a bit difficult to believe though, doesn't it. I mean do we lock people up for disrespecting their parents? Or having sex? Even short term. The idea that everyone is deserving of eternal suffering as punishment for how they lead their lives on Earth (most people leading relatively simple lives) seems very far fetched.
That's fine, you don't have to believe it. And boards.ie has, in their infinite kindness, provided you with an Atheist and Agnosticism Forum where you can discuss your unbelief as much as you like.
However, in a thread of this nature on the Christianity Forum I would have hoped that you could find something better to contribute than, "Well I don't believe it."0 -
That's fine, you don't have to believe it. And boards.ie has, in their infinite kindness, provided you with an Atheist and Agnosticism Forum where you can discuss your unbelief as much as you like.
However, in a thread of this nature on the Christianity Forum I would have hoped that you could find something better to contribute than, "Well I don't believe it."
Well yes you would if you simply choose to ignore what I wrote. On a thread of this nature on the Christianity forum I would have thought that you could find something better to contribute towards support for belief in the claims of your religion that simply misrepresenting the posts of people you don't agree with. :rolleyes:0 -
Exactly. Everybody is going to hell without intervention by God. And you have a choice.
So you can choose to accept the Gospel or not, and live your life accordingly. It's your choice.
Sounds more like a threat tbh. The church doesn't give a fiddlers about anyone but themselves. They've shown nothing but contempt for the Irish people but their power is declining.
I can assure you I have a higher standard of morals and ethics than the church, so to follow any 'gospels' would be a step backwards.
By all means hold your personal beliefs, but don't bring them into the political discourse. We don't want to end up like some of those bible states in the US. (not talking about anyone in particular, just in general)0 -
Advertisement
-
joseph brand wrote: »By all means hold your personal beliefs, but don't bring them into the political discourse
Everyone brings their particular beliefs into political discourse, including you.0 -
That's fine, you don't have to believe it. And boards.ie has, in their infinite kindness, provided you with an Atheist and Agnosticism Forum where you can discuss your unbelief as much as you like.
However, in a thread of this nature on the Christianity Forum I would have hoped that you could find something better to contribute than, "Well I don't believe it."
As it's not in black I assume/hope I'm not commenting on a mod[b/] post but I think it was a reasonable post, one that many atheists ask. Most people out there are decent and it's not unreasonable to say it's pretty flipping harsh to be sentenced for all eternity for choosing not to believe in god.
Actually... Considering, according to you guys we live on for eternity either in heaven or in hell why are the 80-90 years spent on earth so important to god? 80/90 years is but a blink compared to infinity.0 -
Canis Lupus wrote: »...sentenced for all eternity for choosing not to believe in god.
But we aren't saying that.0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »But we aren't saying that.
As has been pointed out on a number of occasions. I feel like I'm in that film 'Groundhog Day'.0 -
As has been pointed out on a number of occasions. I feel like I'm in that film 'Groundhog Day'.
But the may be true for you and Fanny, but it is not true for all Christians, as far as I know it is not even true for the greatest number of christians. And so is not unreasonable to other posters to be confused.0 -
Advertisement
-
But the may be true for you and Fanny, but it is not true for all Christians, as far as I know it is not even true for the greatest number of christians. And so is not unreasonable to other posters to be confused.
I have met tens of thousands of Christians. I have yet to meet one who believes that anyone will be sentenced for all eternity for choosing not to believe in God.
Therefore, unless there is someone on this forum who has argued such a position, it is just a big fat strawman - and not for the first time.0 -
I have met tens of thousands of Christians. I have yet to meet one who believes that anyone will be sentenced for all eternity for choosing not to believe in God.
Therefore, unless there is someone on this forum who has argued such a position, it is just a big fat strawman - and not for the first time.
Not doubting you for a minute PDN, but yours is not the only experience and I would hazard a guess that mine is closer to that of a substantial amount of people in Ireland than yours.
And people were told at a very young age that not believing in God and baptised into the ''one true and apostolic church'' ,whether by accident or design , was enough to consign one to hell. And by the way PDN if my memory serves me correctly, this would have included you and Fanny ! Because this was so uncomfortably black and white the notion of Limbo was invented for all those innocent babies.
Now this may or may not have been theologically sound ( and I have no interest in a theological debate with you)but it was what was taught because the objective was obedient christians and not theological educated ones. And that is possibly one of the reasons we as a nation found ourselves in the ''culture of deference'' society and all the problems that that caused.0 -
It's not your experience, but your logic that matters.Not doubting you for a minute PDN, but yours is not the only experience and I would hazard a guess that mine is closer to that of a substantial amount of people in Ireland than yours.And people were told at a very young age that not believing in God and baptised into the ''one true and apostolic church''
As soon as you typed that word 'and' then you basically self-imploded.
You can't argue that people will go to hell for just A and then try to justify that point by arguing that it was really A+B.
And, tbh, it's going to be a colossal waste of time discussing your personal misunderstanding of the doctrine of the church in which you grew up.0 -
It's not your experience, but your logic that matters.
As soon as you typed that word 'and' then you basically self-imploded.
You can't argue that people will go to hell for just A and then try to justify that point by arguing that it was really A+B.
And, tbh, it's going to be a colossal waste of time discussing your personal misunderstanding of the doctrine of the church in which you grew up.
AS I said experiences differ , you are too full of theology to see that we are not discussing logic, to most people in Ireland it dos'nt matter, there have their priests for that ( even still). I am not arguing anything I am just telling you what growing up in a catholic Ireland was like and in some places still is. You really should try listening instead of lecturing occassionally.
And again I see your are creating another ''rabbit hole''- I never said it was my personal understanding or misunderstanding ( do you read peoples post or always just look for the argument ?) .
Even today if you had a vox pop , on transubstantion/immaculate conception/ assumption/trinity -I doubt if you would get even 5% correct answers. And with that background a substantial number of people have a simplistic black and white faith.
The level of ignorance on the fundamental tenets of their faith is something that is quite astonishing.0 -
AS I said experiences differ , you are too full of theology to see that we are not discussing logic, to most people in Ireland it dos'nt matter, there have their priests for that ( even still). I am not arguing anything I am just telling you what growing up in a catholic Ireland was like and in some places still is. You really should try listening instead of lecturing occassionally.
And again I see your are creating another ''rabbit hole''- I never said it was my personal understanding or misunderstanding ( do you read peoples post or always just look for the argument ?) .
Even today if you had a vox pop , on transubstantion/immaculate conception/ assumption/trinity -I doubt if you would get even 5% correct answers. And with that background a substantial number of people have a simplistic black and white faith.
The level of ignorance on the fundamental tenets of their faith is something that is quite astonishing.
Your experience Marian is not the 'rule' - maybe you should think about that some.
In saying that I do think that you are 'seeking', keep it up, that is important - it can be really hard, I was on that road for so very long, took many roads... - I hope you find it, there is a greater understanding than scratching the surface allows, but sometimes we don't want to do anything more than that because it has 'implications' - implications that effect how we live.
I gave myself over ultimately when I sensed that total 'peace', I can't even describe it, it's not psychological, it's part of your very being, body, mind and spirit - but that doesn't mean that it would be the same experience for everybody, I knew I wasn't perfect, but couldn't deny that there was something I judged myself against really..being brutally honest.0 -
No, that isn't actually true.
I believe the flames and fire are probably symbolic, but also that they symbolise something far worse than literal fire.
In eternity, I believe, people will see their sins as they really are. They won't make excuses any more, nor will they wink at their sins. They will realise, for the first time, exactly how horrible sin is.
The first sentence of the above paragraph could be argued to imply that they are unable to see the reality of sin in this life. The second sentence implies that they can see the actuality of sin - but wilfully ignore it.
And the third sentence once again could be said to mean that they were not capable of realising the depth of their errors on earth.0 -
AS I said experiences differ , you are too full of theology to see that we are not discussing logic,
Your post was contradictory. Accusing me of being 'too full of theology' doesn't change that.
I did listen. I heard a contradiction.You really should try listening instead of lecturing occassionally.
You were the one who tried to pick an argument with me, not vice versa.And again I see your are creating another ''rabbit hole''- I never said it was my personal understanding or misunderstanding ( do you read peoples post or always just look for the argument ?) .
And none of that has the faintest relevance to what I was talking about. We were discussing whether Christians believe that people will be punished eternally purely for choosing not to believe in God. In other words, nor for orginal sin, not for all the other sins they have committed in their lives, purely for disbelief and no other reason.Even today if you had a vox pop , on transubstantion/immaculate conception/ assumption/trinity -I doubt if you would get even 5% correct answers. And with that background a substantial number of people have a simplistic black and white faith.
You are well out of order in arguing that I am wrong, but then trying to put your posts beyond logical analysis by deflecting with ad hominem attacks accusing me of not listening, of being 'too full of theology', and of not listening.
Marien, if you post an argument on an internet discussion board then you must expect people to examine the logic of what you post. If you don't want that, or use ad hominem attacks to avoid such examination, then you cannot really expect anyone to take what you post seriously.0 -
I often wonder at the 'depictions' of hell - and indeed any kind of artistic impression...I think it's healthy to understand the role that 'Art' plays without being boxed in, but also to not attach too much impressions to 'reality' or an artistic endeavor either - they have their place for sure, but none come close even to describing perfectly as every Christian understands something that words don't describe..
They are only meant as 'impressions' on the unknown and of course 'depictions' of what 'is' known about Christ. They can be tools of teaching too - and no doubt.
Ultimately the soul faces Christ - What we are concerned about is how we dress them for the occasion in truth...pray for them, and are united with them, at the end of the day - we're an inseperable family.0 -
Your post was contradictory. Accusing me of being 'too full of theology' doesn't change that.
I did listen. I heard a contradiction.
You were the one who tried to pick an argument with me, not vice versa.
And none of that has the faintest relevance to what I was talking about. We were discussing whether Christians believe that people will be punished eternally purely for choosing not to believe in God. In other words, nor for orginal sin, not for all the other sins they have committed in their lives, purely for disbelief and no other reason.
You are well out of order in arguing that I am wrong, but then trying to put your posts beyond logical analysis by deflecting with ad hominem attacks accusing me of not listening, of being 'too full of theology', and of not listening.
Marien, if you post an argument on an internet discussion board then you must expect people to examine the logic of what you post. If you don't want that, or use ad hominem attacks to avoid such examination, then you cannot really expect anyone to take what you post seriously.
I really suggest you should read my post again , PDN - I did not post an argument - I posted what my experience has been - I can't see how you can dispute or debate that- yours may have been different ,but that is just irrelevant.
And my experience has been that the level of knowledge that people have of their faith is pitiful. How you deduce what my understanding of faith or belief is from that is beyond me.0 -
I really suggest you should read my post again , PDN - I did not post an argument - I posted what my experience has been - I can't see how you can dispute or debate that- yours may have been different ,but that is just irrelevant.
And my experience has been that the level of knowledge that people have of their faith is pitiful. How you deduce what my understanding of faith or belief is from that is beyond me.
Marien, it seems you can join the ranks of the pitiful who blame everybody around them; afterall, it's your soul, your journey, your choices - don't go 'blaming' others, either you live and learn or live and quite simply give a side nod to something you seem interested in, but afraid of knowing. Don't you realise that there are millions of people who don't 'blame' others for themselves, for laziness...
You know what- it's your soul, your journey, your choice etc. but despite what you may see as 'opposition' in fact you have 'good friends' and always will have them here.0 -
Advertisement
-
I really suggest you should read my post again , PDN - I did not post an argument - I posted what my experience has been - I can't see how you can dispute or debate that- yours may have been different ,but that is just irrelevant.
I pointed out that Christians do not believe that people are punished eternally for simply choosing not to believe in God. Christians, at least those who believe in eternal punishment at all, believe that people are punished eternally for other reasons -original sin, sin committed by Adam and Eve, sins committede by ourselves, or even, as you misunderstood it, failing to be baptised.
You said I was inaccurate and wrong in posting that. So you were posting an argument. :rolleyes:
Your argument was wrong. You tried to back it up by citing an experience which did not contradict or refute the point I had made. I am not disputing your experience. But I am pointing out that it was irrelevant to the point I had made. To imply or state otherwise was poor logic.
When I pointed out that poor logic you embarked on a load of evasionary waffle about my being too theological, not listening, or lecturing too much. This gives the impression that you want to argue with something I said, but then evade any logical rebuttal yourself by saying, "I can argue against you, but my argument is free from being challenged or examined in turn because, in the midst of it, I shared an experience."0 -
I was reading a biography of Anton LaVey ( a man who headed and propagated satanism) recently. He had what proved to be a fatal heart attack at quite a young age and was taken to a Catholic hospital for treatment, his final words to family members are disturbing as he was repenting for he's life's teachings and warning those present to see the change. Did LaVey have a vision of hell in his last moments or was his mind altered from the drugs he had been administered?0
-
I pointed out that Christians do not believe that people are punished eternally for simply choosing not to believe in God.
I'm going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here and say that there are undoubtedly Christians out there that do think such a thing, which seems to be the extent of marienbad's argument. Of course, the question then becomes "so what?".
If the Bible speaks a consistent message about the reasons for damnation (and I believe it does) then it stands over against somebody's poorly informed assumptions about what the Bible says about the reasons for damnation.
It's like saying that because many people believe that shaving causes your hair to grow back thicker and in larger quantities that this has any significance beyond the fact that they are wrong.
Do you have a point beyond this?0 -
Marien, it seems you can join the ranks of the pitiful who blame everybody around them; afterall, it's your soul, your journey, your choices - don't go 'blaming' others, either you live and learn or live and quite simply give a side nod to something you seem interested in, but afraid of knowing. Don't you realise that there are millions of people who don't 'blame' others for themselves, for laziness...
You know what- it's your soul, your journey, your choice etc. but despite what you may see as 'opposition' in fact you have 'good friends' and always will have them here.
What is it with his thread !! I am not blaming anyone , I am just pointing the existance of a certain type of christianity where not believing in god was and is certain entry to hell- As you saying that people that believe as such do not exist or what ?0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »I'm going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons here and say that there are undoubtedly Christians out there that do think such a thing, which seems to be the extent of marienbad's argument. Of course, the question then becomes "so what?".
If the Bible speaks a consistent message about the reasons for damnation (and I believe it does) then it stands over against somebody's poorly informed assumptions about what the Bible says about the reasons for damnation.
It's like saying that because many people believe that shaving causes your hair to grow back thicker and in larger quantities that this has any significance beyond the fact that they are wrong.
Do you have a point beyond this?
Exactly , and thank you Fanny, and I posited the further question that in my day I suspect that it was deliberate as ''thinking christians'' were surplus to requirements. No more and no less.
And I suspect that in this country a lot of people of a certain age still believe as much, at least that has been my experience.
And as to having a point beyond beyond that, no - not really- though I would be interested in any views as to why come christians are so ignorant and in many cases willfully so- of their own philosophy. I was just lending support to the poster that said that going to hell for not believing in God was a bit rough.0 -
I pointed out that Christians do not believe that people are punished eternally for simply choosing not to believe in God. Christians, at least those who believe in eternal punishment at all, believe that people are punished eternally for other reasons -original sin, sin committed by Adam and Eve, sins committede by ourselves, or even, as you misunderstood it, failing to be baptised.
You said I was inaccurate and wrong in posting that. So you were posting an argument. :rolleyes:
Your argument was wrong. You tried to back it up by citing an experience which did not contradict or refute the point I had made. I am not disputing your experience. But I am pointing out that it was irrelevant to the point I had made. To imply or state otherwise was poor logic.
When I pointed out that poor logic you embarked on a load of evasionary waffle about my being too theological, not listening, or lecturing too much. This gives the impression that you want to argue with something I said, but then evade any logical rebuttal yourself by saying, "I can argue against you, but my argument is free from being challenged or examined in turn because, in the midst of it, I shared an experience."
Take off the combat glasses and read again then- starting at my first post on this issue. Are you afraid of any discussion or what ?0 -
But that is not what was under discussion. We were not discussing what was certain entrance to hell. We were discussing why people would go to hell - ie what people are sent to hell for. Those are two very distinct concepts. I'm happy to discuss either if you make it clear what it is you are wanting to discuss.Marien, it seems you can join the ranks of the pitiful who blame everybody around them; afterall, it's your soul, your journey, your choices - don't go 'blaming' others, either you live and learn or live and quite simply give a side nod to something you seem interested in, but afraid of knowing. Don't you realise that there are millions of people who don't 'blame' others for themselves, for laziness...
You know what- it's your soul, your journey, your choice etc. but despite what you may see as 'opposition' in fact you have 'good friends' and always will have them here.
What is it with his thread !! I am not blaming anyone , I am just pointing the existance of a certain type of christianity where not believing in god was and is certain entry to hell- As you saying that people that believe as such do not exist or what ?0 -
But that is not what was under discussion. We were not discussing what was certain entrance to hell. We were discussing why people would go to hell - ie what people are sent to hell for. Those are two very distinct concepts. I'm happy to discuss either if you make it clear what it is you are wanting to discuss.
No problem if we had a misunderstanding PDN, but I was just referencing that specific post by Canislupus (I think) . In my experience most non catholics have a a far greater understanding of their beliefs than do catholics. And black and white propositions are the norm and not the exception . That is all I am saying - I am not saying those propositions are correct.
For example The Immaculate Conception I would say as guesstimate would be correctly understood by less then 1 in 1000- ,that is all I am saying and I am curious as to why people think that is.0 -
What is it with his thread !! I am not blaming anyone , I am just pointing the existance of a certain type of christianity where not believing in god was and is certain entry to hell- As you saying that people that believe as such do not exist or what ?
Sorry Marien if I took you up wrong. Certainly there are people who believe all sorts of things, and perhaps there are Christians who believe various differing things depending, so I'm sure you may come across some if you look for them. In saying that, I don't really get what the point is? Some Christians understanding is different to other Christians understanding of some things?0 -
Advertisement
-
What is it with his thread !! I am not blaming anyone , I am just pointing the existance of a certain type of christianity where not believing in god was and is certain entry to hell- As you saying that people that believe as such do not exist or what ?
You're ignoring why it is a problem. It isn't unbelief that keeps us from the Kingdom of Heaven in and of itself.
The Lord God created us, in His image, that we are to reflect His glory in His creation. He in His loving rule gave us commandments that we might follow after Him, these commandments were given for our own good rather than our own detriment. God as Creator has full authority to do this, and indeed He does this because He cares for us and He loves us and wants us to do what is good.
Man decided to reject the Lord by sinning against Him, man decided that he wanted to break away from God and do things their own way. As a result of their rejection of God, they did what was clearly wrong, and fell into sin, choosing to follow their own selfish desires above and beyond God. As a result of breaking God's commandments they deserve punishment, they deserve to be condemned. They are guilty under God's commandment.
God in His mercy, sent Jesus Christ into the world to live, teach, and ultimately to be crucified in our place, so that we might be forgiven. That we might have a new relationship with God. That we can be forgiven, and live for Him is a grace upon grace. We deserve to be sent to hell. I deserve to go to hell. The good news is that God loves us enough not to send us there if we're willing to truly repent. The good news is by Jesus, we can have eternal life rather than eternal condemnation.
If we are still stubbornly unwilling to believe and trust in Jesus, we are condemned. Not because of unbelief - but because our sin will remain unpunished - therefore without Jesus we must bear it ourselves.
Hell exists because God is good. It is because God is profoundly angry at wrongdoing, and it is because God cannot tolerate what is evil to enter the Kingdom of God. It is because God is righteous, that He is just. He's just insofar as He desires punishment for wrongdoing. He's merciful insofar as He has already sent Jesus into the world to pay this penalty.
One day, Jesus will return to judge the world, Jesus is coming back, and on that day, He will rightfully judge the world. Will He say "Good and faithful servant. Come and share in your masters happiness"? Or will one be thrown into the darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?
marienbad: That is the Gospel, that is what mankind needs to hear. That's why man needs to repent and turn to Jesus. That's what God has said, that's what God has declared.
I'm simply saying this - stop being foolish, stop being stubborn, stop running from Jesus, stop avoiding the topic. Stop ignoring the knock on the door. Give Jesus a chance, give His word a chance.
I say this for your own sake. It is for your own good that you consider this, and not ignore it. Please do not treat this message flippantly. I post this because I hope that one day God will dwell richly in you, I post this because I believe that one day you might not run any more. I post this because I long for you and others to believe in Jesus and have life in His name as He promises us.0
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement