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What are the Careers like in Web Design?

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭WIZE


    Just posting to keep track of this


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭cormee


    smash wrote: »
    I was talking about web agencies. It was only when you brought up design agencies that I brought up the outsourcing.

    No, you said design agenices:
    smash wrote: »
    I think the biggest problem is that "design agencies" pop up all over the place but rarely have their own product so they have nothing to fall back on for income when things are slow.

    :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    cormee wrote: »
    No, you said design agenices:



    :confused:
    You realise the title of the thread is about "web design", so in this context a reference to a design agency, relates to a web design agency.


  • Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭Scram


    i used to think id like to be a webdesigner but its far too complex these days. You need to know so much to be employable, and theres loads of languages to get a grip off;
    • HTML
    • HTML 5
    • CSS
    • javascript
    • Ajax
    • Jquery
    • php
    • asp
    • JSP
    • xml

    To sit down and design a good looking web page is not easy, sure anyone can get a template but to actually design it is a different story.

    Its still an area i like but it just seem worth it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Biggest problem, as everyone seems to agree, is that anyone can make a website. Means we're flooded with "web designers" who couldn't design a tesco gift card.

    But in my experience there's another side to it too. Good design, UX and UI is more important than ever and those guys are hard to find!

    If you're prepared to be good at your job, prove that you're good at it, and fight off the swarms of chancers who'll try to undercut you with a weekend's FAS course worth of skillz, there's a good carrier to be had. Otherwise it'll be a struggle.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭cormee


    smash wrote: »
    You realise the title of the thread is about "web design", so in this context a reference to a design agency, relates to a web design agency.

    I do, thank you.

    Let's recap:

    You said

    "I think the biggest problem is that "design agencies" pop up all over the place but rarely have their own product so they have nothing to fall back on for income when things are slow."

    I said:

    "Web design agencies design skills are their product, they shouldn't need to have a product. "

    To which you replied

    "Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal."

    ...so I said "Not sure I understand the question. How does it relate to them having their own product? "

    So, in summary, how does the amount of work you do for web design agencies relate to their having, or not having, a 'product.'

    Are you saying they outsource their design work so they don't have a product (design skills)?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Scram, you're confusing designers with developers there. I understand you probably got that coding list from recruitment ads, but the bottom line is that the agencies and companies that place jobs looking for those skills generally just grab buzz words and don't have a clue.
    cormee wrote: »
    I said:

    "Web design agencies design skills are their product, they shouldn't need to have a product. "

    No you didn't. You said "They're design agencies, not software houses. Their design skills are their product." I have it quoted above. You weren't referring to web design agencies.

    This is a silly argument.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭cormee


    Scram wrote: »
    i used to think id like to be a webdesigner but its far too complex these days. You need to know so much to be employable, and theres loads of languages to get a grip off;
    • HTML
    • HTML 5
    • CSS
    • javascript
    • Ajax
    • Jquery
    • php
    • asp
    • JSP
    • xml

    To sit down and design a good looking web page is not easy, sure anyone can get a template but to actually design it is a different story.

    Its still an area i like but it just seem worth it.

    If you had design skills and were very good at any two, or three, of the above you'd be very employable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Scram wrote: »
    theres loads of languages to get a grip off

    Items in that list are too closely related to be called 'different languages', tbh.

    One: HTML, HTML 5, CSS
    Two: Javascript, AJAX, jQuery

    And the rest (php, asp, etc.) are unrelated to design / front end coding.

    I also think there's room to make a distinction between designer and front-end developer. Often they're one and the same but that needn't be the case -- if you can excel at whichever you choose.

    A strong understanding of the capabilities, limitations and requirements of the intended platform (i.e. web, html, css and JS) is definitely required but in my ideal team, designer and front-end coder needn't be the same person. They're different disciplines.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭cormee


    smash wrote: »
    Scram, you're confusing designers with developers there. I understand you probably got that coding list from recruitment ads, but the bottom line is that the agencies and companies that place jobs looking for those skills generally just grab buzz words and don't have a clue.


    No you didn't. You said "They're design agencies, not software houses. Their design skills are their product." I have it quoted above. You weren't referring to web design agencies.

    What are you talikng about? The two quotes mean the exact same thing -Their design skills are their product.

    And I still don't understand your reply:

    "Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal. "

    :confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    cormee wrote: »
    If you had design skills and were very good at any two, or three, of the above you'd be very employable.
    Depending on what you're willing to work for.

    I constantly get emails regarding positions from recruitment agencies and constantly tell them no thanks because of the salary levels on offer.

    There's literally hundreds of positions available for juniors though.
    Goodshape wrote: »
    I also think there's room to make a distinction between designer and front-end developer. Often they're one and the same but that needn't be the case -- if you can excel at whichever you choose.
    If you're great a designing layouts in Photoshop but can't code them up then you're better off going into print design because it doesn't cut it in fast paced environments.
    cormee wrote: »
    What are you talikng about? The two quotes mean the exact same thing -Their design skills are their product.
    Which I stated, needs to be backed up by a real revenue producing product for when work begins to dry up. That's why so many of them close down.
    cormee wrote: »
    And I still don't understand your reply:

    "Then why do they outsource most of their work? The amount of work we do here where I work on behalf of agencies is unreal. "
    I work for a web design agency. We consistently do work for "general design agencies" because they don't have the skills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,070 ✭✭✭Placebo


    HTML
    HTML 5
    CSS

    javascript
    Ajax
    Jquery

    php
    asp
    JSP

    xml

    Those are all essentially the same, or in poetry terms 'run on lines'
    You will either know PHP or ASP/JSP,
    Theres nothing really to know about XML, for lowlevel webdesign/storage anyway.

    Only thing complex would be using stuff like modenizer/css3 pie to compensate for the time till HTML5 becomes a standard. And using -moz -webkit prefixes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Placebo wrote: »
    Only thing complex would be using stuff like modenizer/css3 pie to compensate for the time till HTML5 becomes a standard. And using -moz -webkit prefixes.

    But even when HTML5 becomes a standard (When Microsoft get off their lazy ass and accept it), you'll still need CSS3.

    And for what it's worth, I'd lump HTML5 in with JS going forward. It's become a lot more complex in a way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    Trying to look for work in it at the moment, companies are looking for people who can do HTML 5 and CSS 3, php and javascript, theres still work experience with jobbridge in CSS and XHTML, experience to be had I guess.

    http://www.jobbridge.ie/


    why would Companies want to move into HTML 5 ?

    Sorry mate but after studying HTML 5 it will be atlest 2 years before we will get html 5 in our Websites.. HTML 5 at the moment is fully working in Opera and thats about it FireFox IE are 60% their were as Opera are 97% their with HTML 5,

    With if compaines start using HTML 5 it will cut alot of people off just like Sites using Flash waste of time, CSS 3 is the same,

    If your looking at Web Design, look at the likes of editing photos in Photoshop; Ajax mySql etc not just HTML and CSS/JS will get you a job.

    what makes a good Web Developer is cross platform development..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Cork24 wrote: »
    why would Companies want to move into HTML 5 ?

    For mobile development.
    Cork24 wrote: »
    Ajax mySql etc
    Not a web design job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭cormee


    smash wrote: »
    Which I stated, needs to be backed up by a real revenue producing product for when work begins to dry up. That's why so many of them close down.

    ...and we're back to my original reply - their design skills are their products, they are (web) design agencies, not software houses. No need to reply, this could go on all week.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    cormee wrote: »
    ...and we're back to my original reply - their design skills are their products, they are (web) design agencies, not software houses.

    And were back to my point about it not being enough and that's why so many of them close down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    smash wrote: »
    If you're great a designing layouts in Photoshop but can't code them up then you're better off going into print design because it doesn't cut it in fast paced environments.
    If your idea of designing an interactive online user experience is "layouts in Photoshop" then yeah, you'd better have some additional skills.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭cormee


    Cork24 wrote: »

    With if compaines start using HTML 5 it will cut alot of people off just like Sites using Flash waste of time, CSS 3 is the same,

    Design inclusively, make sure your design degrades gracefully, and functionality isn't lost on older browsers, you should be doing that anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Goodshape wrote: »
    If your idea of designing an interactive online user experience is "layouts in Photoshop" then yeah, you'd better have some additional skills.

    Well if you're a designer and not a front-end developer then there's not much else to do.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,663 ✭✭✭Cork24


    Safari doesn't support HTML 5 video..

    Android supports flash still but has moved into html5 as I said it will take ablest 2 years


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    smash wrote: »
    Well if you're a designer and not a front-end developer then there's not much else to do.

    Perhaps for the lower end work but if you want to advance beyond that I think there's a lot more to a designers job (as distinct from a front-end or back-end developer) than Photoshop layouts. And there's room for specialization.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Can you give me exapmles?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    smash wrote: »
    Can you give me exapmles?

    A List Apart have separate sections dedicated to Code, Content, Design and User Science, among others.

    That to my mind includes three areas a "web designer" could concentrate on aside from being a Code master.

    Their description of Design:
    Visual communication, art direction. Designing systems or interfaces to help users achieve goals. Graphic design, interface design, user experience design, typography, illustration, photography, artwork. Creative and technical techniques for crafting great interfaces. Developing an appropriate look and feel. How web users respond to design. Identity systems and brand development. Visual styles, influences, and trends. Includes: Graphic Design, User Interface Design, Typography, Layout, Web Fonts.

    And their description of Code:
    Markup, style, scripting, and server-side techniques in the service of user-centric interfaces and tools. Cross-browser XHTML, CSS, and JavaScript. Roll your own X using scripting or markup language Y. Producing clearer, saner, more secure code that plays well with others. The love/hate relationship between layout and markup. Workarounds for that irritating bug and why (or why not) to use them. Includes: Browsers, CSS, Flash, HTML and XHTML, Scripting, Server Side, XML, HTML5.


    For a lot of jobs in a lot of agencies you're going to need a decent grasp of both areas but to be a master at one, I wouldn't necessarily expect you to master the other.

    Depends on your goals, and the opportunities around you. A one-for-all is certainly the more budget-friendly option for smaller businesses and startups, and usually enough for an agency or brochure-website freelancer. The industry has more to offer than that though, for the career minded.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    To be honest, that all sounds very art school. For me, a web designer must be able to take a client's brief and create usable and visually aesthetic sample. Upon sign off, the web designer must be able to code a valid working, SEO friendly, cross browser compatible version and then if necessary, integrate it into a CMS. This is what companies want.

    It is not a web designer's job to take photographs or write content either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    Well, yes. Art school -- exactly.

    It used to be that websites were made exclusively by coders and hackers. Computer nerds. They made great things like GeoCities and MySpace. Famously Google's homepage was so bare not for aesthetic love of whitespace, the developers simply didn't "do" design.

    I think that has to an extent, and certainly is, changing. Web sites are becoming web apps, users are demanding better visual experiences and interfaces and in addition to that, target platforms now come in all shapes and sizes, new technologies and languages are popping up every day... to really be on top of your game in all these areas is asking a lot.

    There is now and will increasingly be, in my opinion, the need for specialists.


    (there is also the need for someone who can just hunker down and produce a website "single handedly"... not all homes are mansions... I'm just saying it's not the only option for a career in "web design").


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    It's not asking that much. Move forward or get left behind. I've been at it for 12 years and never stop adjusting to the trends.

    Fortunately for me, I have a good team who do the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭OctavarIan


    Cork24 wrote: »
    Safari doesn't support HTML 5 video..

    Yes it does.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,341 ✭✭✭S.M.B.


    I just doesn't support WebM isn't it?

    Our web designers here have little/zero knowledge of coding. I'm in the UI team so that's all our responsibility.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    S.M.B. wrote: »
    Our web designers here have little/zero knowledge of coding. I'm in the UI team so that's all our responsibility.

    What do they do then? Mock up layouts?


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