The NRA must be stopped

w2_3vc · 28-12-2010 7:27pm

What of the M17 commuter route?

What of the continued land purchases for lands that are falling in value whilst borrowing costs are rising?

Sponge Bob · 28-12-2010 7:49pm

w2_3vc wrote: »

What of the continued land purchases for lands that are falling in value whilst borrowing costs are rising?

What of them ????? Land will continue to fall in value for the next 3-5 years which is no excuse to do nothing for the next 3 - 5 years.

Any difference in land purchase costs between now and say 2014 will be made back by decongesting the current route 4 years earlier than would be the case were one to wait for land prices to fall before building.

Think of all the petrol that will not be burnt as one is no longer stuck in Claregalway or crawling into it...each and every day of the week.

I pay no attention to an Taisce who only represent a shallow but shrill economic stratum of 'green' consultants and conservation architects who get the 'green' jobs for the boys as much as any of the FF brown envelope merchants do.

We cannot afford these useless parasites in our current economic state, let them get themselves useful jobs clearing snow or something :cool:

w2_3vc · 28-12-2010 8:03pm

A little lesson in compounding; if you borrow money priced at 9% for 5 years it is equal to 154% if the corresponding land values fall by 10% yoy what you have bought will be worth 59% of what you paid for it; given that Doha will be the next nail in farming's coffin and that the domestic banks won't be doing any speculative lending for the foreseeable future your protestations that buying something you don't need for the next 5 years represents a do nothing nothing option is so ill conceived it beggers belief.

We are not talking about An Taisce who have the right to their opinion on environmental issues; we are talking fiscal responsibility in the context of the IMF signing the cheques. I wish they had been listened to on the M3 and Limerick Tunnel the taxpayer would now be €100m a year better off not to mention the financing costs for the majority of the costs of these projects the exchequer pumped in to give the toll concession owners an earner.

I'll leave you with AA route planner on Cork to Derry

Start out on Merchant's Quay
0.21 Cork Bus Station
0.24 At Junction 26, traffic signals continue forward onto Anderson's Quay - N20
N27 0.40 At Junction 1, traffic signals turn left onto Albert Street - N27 (signposted Dublin N8)
0.45 Michael Collins Bridge (River Lee)
N8 0.48 Bear left onto Penrose's Quay - N8 (signposted All Routes)
0.55 Turn right onto the N8 (signposted Dublin)
1.09 Kent Railway Station
5.29 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N8 (signposted Dublin)
M8 5.81 At Dunkettle Interchange branch left, then at Dunkettle Interchange (Jct 19) roundabout take the 1st exit onto the M8 (signposted Dublin)
19.04 At Junction 17 continue forward onto the M8 toll motorway (signposted Dublin)
21.82 M8 Toll Plaza
26.78 Cross River Bride
35.33 River Blackwater (Viaduct Crossing)
M7 149.48 Continue forward onto the M7 toll motorway (signposted Dublin)
161.08 Portlaoise Main Toll Plaza
N7 224.05 Continue forward onto Naas Dual Carriageway - N7 (signposted Dublin)
M50 244.67 At Junction with M50 take left-hand lanes, then join the M50 motorway (signposted M50 Northbound)
248.84 At Junction 7 continue forward onto the M50 toll motorway (signposted Northbound - toll)
250.38 M50 Toll (Barrier Free)
252.10 At Junction 6 continue forward onto the M50 (signposted Belfast, Dublin Airport)
M1 262.45 Leave the M50 at junction 3 (M1) then take left-hand lanes, then join the M1 motorway (signposted Belfast, Dublin Airport)
276.50 M1 Lusk Service Area
288.62 At Junction 7 continue forward onto the M1 toll motorway (signposted Belfast)
293.75 M1 Toll Plaza
N33 318.71 Leave the M1 at junction 14, then at roundabout take the 1st exit onto the N33 (signposted Ardee, Derry (N2))
326.28 Continue forward onto the N33 Entering Ardee
N2 326.81 At roundabout take the 2nd exit, then at roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
343.03 Continue forward onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
343.03 Continue forward onto the N2 (signposted Derry) onto Carrickmacross Bypass
358.96 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
358.96 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry) onto Castleblayney Bypass
364.81 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
372.40 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
381.91 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
381.91 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry) onto Monaghan Bypass
383.41 At roundabout take the 1st exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
384.38 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N2 (signposted Derry)
390.91 Continue forward onto the N2 Entering Corracrin
393.66 Continue forward onto Main Street - N2 Entering Emyvale
A5 400.82 Continue forward onto Monaghan Road - A5 (You are entering Northern Ireland)
402.19 Continue forward onto Mill Street - A5 Entering Aughnacloy
A28 402.30 Turn left onto Moore Street - A28 (signposted Omagh)
A5 403.04 Continue forward onto Tullyvar Road - A5 (signposted Omagh)
408.48 Continue forward onto Tullyvar Road - A5 Entering Ballygawley
A4 408.64 Turn right onto Annaghilla Road - A4 (signposted Belfast, Omagh A5)
A5 408.77 At Ballygawley Roundabout take the 1st exit onto Omagh Road - A5 (signposted Omagh)
432.37 Continue forward onto the A5 Entering Omagh
432.98 At Crevenagh roundabout take the 1st exit onto the A5 (signposted Londonderry, Strabane)
A32 434.44 Continue forward onto Great Northern Road - A32
A5 434.47 Continue forward onto Great Northern Road - A5
434.49 At traffic signals continue forward onto Great Northern Road - A5 (signposted Strabane)
436.26 At Derry Road Roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Beltany Road - A5 (signposted Strabane)
457.18 Continue forward onto Mulvin Road - A5 Entering Victoria Bridge
460.11 Continue forward onto Melmount Road - A5 Entering Sion Mills
462.69 Continue forward onto Melmount Road - A5 Entering Strabane
462.90 At Melmount Road roundabout take the 1st exit onto Orchard Road Industrial Estate - A5 (signposted Londonderry)
462.90 At Melmount Road roundabout take the 1st exit onto Orchard Road Industrial Estate - A5 (signposted Londonderry) onto Strabane Bypass
464.92 At traffic signals continue forward onto the A5
465.52 At Bradley Way roundabout take the 1st exit onto Bradley Way - A5 (signposted Belfast)
465.91 At Lifford Road Roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Barnhill Road - A5 (signposted Londonderry)
469.88 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Ballymagorry
476.19 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Bready
480.24 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Magheramason
482.50 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering New Buildings
487.15 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Londonderry
487.71 Turn left
A2 487.74 At roundabout take the 1st exit onto the A2 (signposted City Centre, Buncrana)
487.97 Lower Craigavon Bridge
488.10 Turn right onto Foyle Road - A2
488.27 At Foyleside Roundabout take the 3rd exit onto Foyle Embankment - A2 (signposted Buncrana, Moville)
489.05 At Harbour Square roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Great James Street - B529 (signposted Local Traffic and Shops, Parking)
489.34 Turn left onto Little James Street - B527
489.43 Arrive on Little James Street

Lets not leave out our mates in Thomond Park en route to the Brandywell

0.00 Start out on Ruthland Street
0.31 At traffic signals turn left onto William Street - R527 (signposted Tipperary, Waterford N24)
0.71 At traffic signals continue forward onto Upper William Street - R527 (signposted All Other Routes)
0.84 Bear left onto Upper William Street - R527 (signposted Waterford N24)
1.27 Limerick Greyhound Stadium
2.49 At Tipperary Roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Ballysimon Road - R527 (signposted Waterford N24)
N24 2.59 Bear left onto Ballysimon Road - N24
2.66 Bear left onto Ballysimon Road - R527
4.06 At roundabout take the 3rd exit onto Ballysimon Road - R527 (signposted Waterford N24)
M7 5.04 At traffic signals turn left, then join the M7 motorway (signposted Dublin)
M7 5.04 At traffic signals turn left, then join the M7 motorway (signposted Dublin) onto Limerick Bypass
N52 37.00 Leave the M7 at junction 26, then at roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Limerick Road - N52 (signposted Nenagh)
38.77 At Limerick Road roundabout take the 1st exit onto the N52 (signposted Birr)
38.77 At Limerick Road roundabout take the 1st exit onto the N52 (signposted Birr) onto Nenagh Bypass
40.78 At Portroe Road roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Link Road - N52 (signposted Birr)
41.26 At Dromineer Road roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Link Road - N52 (signposted Birr)
43.03 At Borrisokane Road roundabout take the 1st exit onto the N52 (signposted Birr)
57.23 Continue forward onto the N52 Entering Borrisokane
65.11 Bear left onto the N52 (signposted Birr)
65.11 Bear left onto the N52 (signposted Birr) Entering Ballingarry
75.93 Continue forward onto the N52 Entering Riverstown
76.67 Cross Little Brosna River
77.51 Continue forward onto the N52 Entering Birr
77.75 Turn left onto Railway Road - N52 (signposted Tullamore)
78.39 Cross bridge
78.54 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto John's Place - N52
78.68 At memorial bear right onto the N52 (signposted Tullamore)
79.13 "The Cherry Tree", traffic signals continue forward onto the N52
N62 81.48 Turn left onto the N62 (signposted Athlone)
93.62 Turn right onto Banagher Street - N62 (signposted Athlone)
93.62 Turn right onto Banagher Street - N62 (signposted Athlone) Entering Cloghan
93.81 At roundabout take the 3rd exit onto the N62 (signposted Athlone)
99.75 Continue forward onto the N62 Entering Ferbane
100.20 River Brosna
103.46 Shannon Region
107.10 Continue forward onto the N62 Entering Doon
107.44 At crossroads continue forward onto the N62 (signposted Athlone)
110.18 Bear right onto the N62 Entering Ballinahown
116.42 At T-junction turn left onto the N62 (signposted Galway)
N6 117.76 At roundabout take the 3rd exit onto Athlone Bypass - N6 (signposted Dublin, Galway M6)
N62 117.95 Continue forward onto Athlone Bypass - N62
N6 118.29 At roundabout take the 1st exit, then merge onto the N6 (signposted Galway)
N55 121.26 Leave the N6 at junction 10, then turn right onto Ballymahon Road - N55 (signposted Cavan)
124.77 Continue forward onto Bullet Road - N55 Entering Ballykeeran
128.43 Continue forward onto the N55 Entering Glassan
141.03 Continue forward onto Athlone Road - N55 Entering Ballymahon
141.51 Turn left onto Main Street - N55 (signposted Cavan)
141.86 Turn right onto the N55 (signposted Cavan)
151.05 Continue forward onto the N55 Entering Carrickboy
160.42 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Ballymahon Road - N55 (signposted Town Centre)
160.53 Continue forward onto Ballymahon Road Entering Edgeworthstown
160.74 At traffic signals turn right onto Pound Street (signposted Cavan, Town Centre)
160.90 Bear right onto Main Street
N55 161.11 At traffic signals turn left onto the N55 (signposted Cavan)
161.53 Bear left onto the N55 (signposted Cavan)
172.46 Continue forward onto Parnell Row - N55 Entering Granard
184.78 Continue forward onto the N55 Entering Killydoon
190.61 Bear right onto the N55
193.39 Continue forward onto the N55 Entering Bellinagh
193.83 At crossroads continue forward onto Cavan Road - N55 (signposted Cavan)
198.98 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Cavan Bypass - N55 (signposted Dublin)
N3 201.55 At Dublin Road roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N3 (signposted Ballyshannon, Enniskillen)
216.86 Continue forward onto Corporation Lands - N3 Entering Belturbet
218.05 Bear left onto Holborn Hill - N3 (signposted Ballyshannon)
218.44 Bear right onto Upper Bridge Street - N3 (signposted Ballyshannon)
219.66 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the N3 (signposted Enniskillen)
222.59 Cross Woodford River
A509 222.83 Continue forward onto Belturbet Road - A509 (You are entering Northern Ireland)
232.20 At mini-roundabout continue forward onto Belturbet Road - A509
232.29 Continue forward onto Belturbet Road - A509 Entering Derrylin
234.66 Bear right onto the A509 (signposted Enniskillen)
245.31 Continue forward onto Derrylin Road - A509 Entering Bellanaleck
A4 250.78 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Sligo Road - A4 (signposted Enniskillen)
252.30 Continue forward onto Sligo Road - A4 Entering Enniskillen
253.29 Continue forward onto the A4 (signposted Belleek, Donegal A46)
253.29 Continue forward onto the A4 (signposted Belleek, Donegal A46) then immediately
253.34 Turn right onto the A4 (signposted Belfast)
A32 253.46 At traffic signals turn left onto Darling Street - A32 (signposted Omagh)
253.79 At Queen Elizabeth Roundabout take the 1st exit onto Cornagrade Road - A32 (signposted Omagh)
255.31 At roundabout take the 1st exit onto Irvinestown Road - A32 (signposted Omagh)
B32 256.16 Continue forward onto Irvinestown Road - B32
A32 256.35 Continue forward onto Irvinestown Road - A32
258.46 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Mossfield Road - A32
268.23 Continue forward onto Mill Street - A32 Entering Irvinestown
268.42 Turn right onto the A32 (signposted Omagh)
268.70 At T-junction turn right onto Pound Street - A32 (signposted Dromore, Omagh)
281.23 Bear right onto Tummery Road - A32 Entering Dromore
281.70 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto the A32 (signposted Omagh, Drumquin B84)
281.88 At roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Omagh Road - A32
B4 286.56 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - B4
A32 291.00 Continue forward onto the A32
B4 292.48 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - B4
A32 293.19 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - A32
B4 293.21 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - B4
294.40 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - B4 Entering Omagh
A32 294.48 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - A32
B4 294.59 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - B4
A32 294.64 Continue forward onto Clanabogan Road - A32
295.81 At traffic signals turn left onto Railway Link Road - A32
A5 295.93 At traffic signals turn right onto Great Northern Road - A5 (signposted Strabane)
297.70 At Derry Road Roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Beltany Road - A5 (signposted Strabane)
318.62 Continue forward onto Mulvin Road - A5 Entering Victoria Bridge
321.53 Continue forward onto Melmount Road - A5 Entering Sion Mills
324.12 Continue forward onto Melmount Road - A5 Entering Strabane
324.33 At Melmount Road roundabout take the 1st exit onto Orchard Road Industrial Estate - A5 (signposted Londonderry)
324.33 At Melmount Road roundabout take the 1st exit onto Orchard Road Industrial Estate - A5 (signposted Londonderry) onto Strabane Bypass
326.36 At traffic signals continue forward onto the A5
326.95 At Bradley Way roundabout take the 1st exit onto Bradley Way - A5 (signposted Belfast)
327.34 At Lifford Road Roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Barnhill Road - A5 (signposted Londonderry)
331.32 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Ballymagorry
337.62 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Bready
341.68 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Magheramason
343.93 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering New Buildings
348.58 Continue forward onto Victoria Road - A5 Entering Londonderry
349.13 Turn left
A2 349.18 At roundabout take the 1st exit onto the A2 (signposted City Centre, Buncrana)
349.40 Lower Craigavon Bridge
349.53 Turn right onto Foyle Road - A2
349.69 At Foyleside Roundabout take the 3rd exit onto Foyle Embankment - A2 (signposted Buncrana, Moville)
350.47 At Harbour Square roundabout take the 2nd exit onto Great James Street - B529 (signposted Local Traffic and Shops, Parking)
350.77 Turn left onto Little James Street - B527
350.87 Arrive on Little James Street

Where are the Ballindyne traffic counts?

corktina · 28-12-2010 8:04pm

w2_3vc wrote: »

I'd guess you are based in Cork from your name, nice town, what percentage of your national route journeys in 2010 were on the N17?

sorry I thought as I live in Ireland , I had a right to an opinion on National Roads.... (my opinion is that theres a lot of trolling going on.)

antoobrien · 28-12-2010 8:07pm

w2_3vc wrote: »

What of the M17 commuter route?

What of the continued land purchases for lands that are falling in value whilst borrowing costs are rising?

You might want topay attention to the thread, this argument has already been addressed:

IngazZagni wrote: »

However they are not borrowing at the market rates are they? No, they are at a much lower agreed rate with the EU/IMF.

As for

the M17 commuter route

as you put it, I suggest you come to Galway and try to get about. The traffic in and about town makes Dublin look free flowing. There's a lot of traffic that avoid N17 Tuam-Galway like the plague and take smaller R & L roads because they know that the car will stay moving. I often travel to relatives in south Mayo, and barring the pre-Motorway N6,the N17 is the busiest single carraige road way i've seen. It is on a par with (if not busier than), the N11 at Jack whites,which is a well known bad traffic area and everyone seems to agree that the N/M11 is needed.

To answer the commuter nonsesne, Claregalway a very busy commuter route on a saturday and sunday morning with 2 mile tailbacks into it.

The Atlantic Corridor (which this is part of) is vital to the country for the simple reason that continued development of Dublin is not sustainable. Dublin barely has adequate water for the current population and there's a truly hypocritical proposal to create a 500 acre lake in the bogs of Offaly to cater for the extra demand (environmentalists regularly protest against hydroelectric stations so it's ironic that our green party is proposing destroying 500 acres of habitats, but don't mind objecting to paving in some bog in Galway we we can have some vital infrastructure).

Sponge Bob · 28-12-2010 8:10pm

w2_3vc wrote: »

A little lesson in compounding; if you borrow money priced at 9% for 5 years it is equal to 154% if the corresponding land values fall by 10% yoy what you have bought will be worth 59% of what you paid for it;

It will not be borrowed at 9% for starters, I see you have no idea how the M17/M18 is to be funded

given that Doha will be the next nail in farming's coffin and that the domestic banks won't be doing any speculative lending for the foreseeable future your protestations that buying something you don't need for the next 5 years represents a do nothing nothing option is so ill conceived it beggers belief.

I take it you mean the Doha "Round", it will have no effect in Connacht

The road is needed.

Where are the Ballindyne traffic counts?

It is neither on the route you selected ( The dreadful N55) nor is it spelt Ballindyne

w2_3vc · 28-12-2010 8:18pm

It will not be borrowed at 9% for starters, I see you have no idea how the M17/M18 is to be funded

&

Originally Posted by IngazZagni
However they are not borrowing at the market rates are they? No, they are at a much lower agreed rate with the EU/IMF.

That is the price of Irish debt; the IMF model is not fixed and yields are rising 106bps in 6 weeks and 13bps today alone. Even if it were a mere 6% which is below what would be paid today under the IMF formula it is still 134% for an asset class in free fall. (Unzoned land vs investment property)

I take it you mean the Doha "Round", it will have no effect in Connacht

The golden days of agriculture are long gone; each trade round sees further cuts in production subsidies; each fall in subsidies sees a fall in the agricultural value of land; there is no speculative finance so land values will fall.

It is neither on the route you selected ( The dreadful N55) nor is it spelt Ballindyne

My point exactly the N17 has no role other than that as a commuter route to Tuam; the Atlantic Corridor is a fiction; you are right on the spelling of Ballindine; any chance of the traffic counts?

The Atlantic Corridor (which this is part of) is vital to the country for the simple reason that continued development of Dublin is not sustainable. Dublin barely has adequate water for the current population and there's a truly hypocritical proposal to create a 500 acre lake in the bogs of Offaly to cater for the extra demand (environmentalists regularly protest against hydroelectric stations so it's ironic that our green party is proposing destroying 500 acres of habitats, but don't mind objecting to paving in some bog in Galway we we can have some vital infrastructure).

Travelling from Cork or Limerick to Derry one does not use the route or travelling from Galway, Limerick or Cork to Omagh one does not use the route and this is accroding to the motorists lobby group the AA; there is nothing other than crayon planning that makes this project look good.

ardmacha · 28-12-2010 8:51pm

Travelling from Cork or Limerick to Derry one does not use the route or travelling from Galway, Limerick or Cork to Omagh one does not use the route and this is accroding to the motorists lobby group the AA; there is nothing other than crayon planning that makes this project look good

So your gripe is with the Atlantic corridor then, are you proposing an upgrade for the N52? Do you think that these midland routes represent an acceptable standard for a developed country?

w2_3vc · 28-12-2010 8:59pm

For the limited traffic using them and after numerous bypasses of places like Tullamore, Mullingar etc I do; if people don't like that standard they can route via Dublin. Its all very well sitting in Armagh with Uncle George to subsidise your roads budget but in case you hadn't noticed the IMF are signing the cheques these days in Merrion Street. In the past 10 years almost 500 miles of Motorway and Dual carriageway has been added to give a very good road network between the major population centres.

The prime tenant of Adam Smith was that good economy is about the division of scarce resources, never was that truer than today; commuter motorways to towns with an urban population of 3,000 cannot be justified until more pressing needs are addressed.

Cosmo Kramer · 28-12-2010 9:00pm

w2_3vc wrote: »

Internationally it generally accepted that a minimum of 50,000 aadt is a base figure for motorways; this route would not acheive even half that figure.

As an example to demonstrate how ridiculous a statement this is the M8 in Scotland is a dual lane motorway with an AADT of 55,000. I can tell you from first hand experience that it is hopelessly congested and is a major barrier to economic growth in that region. A dual lane motorway has a capacity (not a minimum requirement) of 40,000 vehicles. Any more and it needs to be widened to appropriately accommodate demand.

w2_3vc · 28-12-2010 9:06pm

The M8 connects Glasgow with a population of 1,199,629 with Edinburgh which has a population of 448,624; Tuam has an urban population of 3,000; are you suggesting a monorail from Prestwick to Leith?

ardmacha · 28-12-2010 9:10pm

Tuam has an urban population of 3,000;

What is this fascination with the population of individual towns on a route.
Does the population of Dover or Calais determine the viability of the Chunnel?

marmurr1916 · 28-12-2010 9:14pm

Tailors Hall wrote: »

The M17 will not connect any cities it will connect Oranmore and Tuam. You will note I did not object to the M18 which does link Limerick/Cork with Galway.

The M17 will be part of a route which connects Cork (and Kerry) to Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Letterkenny and Derry.

The section between Gort and Tuam will begin construction next year:

CONSTRUCTION ON the €530 million Gort to Tuam route is due to begin next year under a public private partnership (PPP) scheme that will add a further 57km of high-quality roadway on the Atlantic Corridor route.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1228/1224286364552.html

Whinge away. The road is going to be built.

BTW, what connections do you have with An Taisce (based in Tailors Hall)?

Sponge Bob · 28-12-2010 9:35pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

BTW, what connections do you have with An Taisce (based in Tailors Hall)?

Trolling and tendentiousness in the house style from what I can see.... OH!!! and giving An Taisce and Isaac a worse reputation than they already have

ningnong · 28-12-2010 9:55pm

@tech2. very interesting link...any idea where "Traffic Counter Data for "Tuam Road N17-15" actually is on the route? If not I'll contact NRA. Thanks!

w2_3vc · 28-12-2010 10:13pm

What is this fascination with the population of individual towns on a route.
Does the population of Dover or Calais determine the viability of the Chunnel?

It because there are only two other real towns on the entire route of any even moderate scale, the purpose of building large roads is to plug in population and connect cities not to deal with rush hour for one off house dwellers; one 80 miles and away and the other 70 miles more; by the way the Channel Tunnel is actually at Folkestone not Dover. And to go from Paris or Brussels to London you actually take a train.

The M17 will be part of a route which connects Cork (and Kerry) to Limerick, Galway, Sligo, Letterkenny and Derry

Not according to the AA which list the route from Cork and Kerry to Derry as going an entirely different route which is listed if you bothered to read it.

BTW, what connections do you have with An Taisce

I am not a member of An Taisce and if I was it wouldn't change the fact that the M17 is a complete white elephant and that the NRA are buying land in a falling market when the government is paying inflated borrowing costs from the IMF. US treasurys closed up 15bps again today; the rates are rising.

ardmacha · 28-12-2010 10:32pm

the purpose of building large roads is to plug in population

True enough

But looking at your posts you would think that the untermenschen who don't live in towns have no business using roads. Others of us think that roads should serve citizens, but that concept might be a bit radical.

Sponge Bob · 28-12-2010 10:34pm

w2_3vc wrote: »

Not according to the AA which list the route from Cork and Kerry to Derry as going an entirely different route which is listed if you bothered to read it.

Nobody as in NOBODY goes from Cork to Derry on the N55, please disregard everything the AA said willya. It helps nobody, mainly you.

I am not a member of An Taisce and if I was it doesn't change the fact that the M17 is a complete white lephant and that the NRA are buying land in a falling market when the government is paying inflated borrowing costs from the IMF. US treasurys closed up 15bps again today; the rates are rising.

So what, it will be built anyway. Have a tilt at land prices along the N28 or along the M20 instead if you must.

With a land take for Type 1 of around 5-10 HA per KM the total cost @ a most generous €10k an ACRE is around €200k per km.

The road itself will cost 10x that, no matter what.

Your An Taisces land 'costs' are a red herring , even at €1 a hectare one would still only save a fraction of the road cost.

Mentioning some spread loosening on the long one is an even redder herring

IngazZagni · 29-12-2010 12:34am

w2_3vc wrote: »

Not according to the AA which list the route from Cork and Kerry to Derry as going an entirely different route which is listed if you bothered to read it.

I tried out a few routes there on the AA route planner and I can say without doubt, avoid it! I mean with you're route they told you to use the N55! That's laughable to say the least. I don't know why the AA has an obsession with the midland corridors. You would be far quicker to go to Dublin and then onwards as you'd be on motorway for much of the journey. The N17/18/20 is the quickest way on most journeys from the west. At least Google maps agrees with me

With regards to the M3. The M3 as a road is and will be a success for decades to come. What was a failure however where the contracts that the authorities signed. They should have never agreed to those conditions and unfortunately the tax payer has to pick up the tab for the this stupid mistake.

Tech3 · 29-12-2010 12:58am

ningnong wrote: »

@tech2. very interesting link...any idea where "Traffic Counter Data for "Tuam Road N17-15" actually is on the route? If not I'll contact NRA. Thanks!

I'm not sure. If you travel the road often you should notice a black cord going across the road which detects the amount of vehicles that pass by.

L1011 · 29-12-2010 1:22am

Furet wrote: »

w2_3vc and Tailors Hall (and everyone else): if you're going to have a debate on thread, it would be best to stick to the one username.

Furet, presumably you can see IPs - can you confirm how many, or how few people the three main protagonists actually are?

Amtmann · 29-12-2010 1:50am

MYOB wrote: »

Furet, presumably you can see IPs - can you confirm how many, or how few people the three main protagonists actually are?

I cannot see IPs, but I can see software-generated percentage matches on posts made from IP addresses that the software can see (bit convoluted, sorry, it's late and I'm tired

). w2_3vc and tailors hill are the same poster; s/he has contacted me about this and explained the situation to my satisfaction, so no harm done. S/He'll be posting as w2_3vc from now on. The matter is settled.

KevR · 29-12-2010 1:55am

In terms of environmental impact - I wonder if I am producing more emissions now when I drive past Ballinasloe twice daily (cruising at a steady speed; getting from one side of the town to the other in roughly 3 mins, 6 mins total per day) OR when I used to drive through the town twice daily a year ago (at a snails pace; stop/start the whole way; journey taking as much as 15 mins each way, 30 mins total per day)????? Same can be said for Loughrea, Oranmore, Athlone (bypassed a long time ago I know), Moate.....etc.

Some people who are anti-car and hardcore pro-public transport refuse to acknowledge that the M4/6 has totally changed the dynamic of public transport between Galway and Dublin in a hugely positive way. This is because the M4/6 benefits private motorists as well as public transport.. I have nothing against public transport - I'm a regular user of non-stop buses between Galway and Dublin, it is a brilliant service and is often a lot handier/cheaper than driving. Without the M4/6 public transport between Galway and Dublin would be a lot worse off; this can not be stated enough!!

@ningnong - no need to contact the NRA, there is a map of traffic counter locations here.

I'm sure this has already been addressed but just to reaffirm that the M17/18 is not a motorway to link the towns of Gort and Tuam together, it is the final link between the City of Galway and the City of Limerick (it will also greatly improve connectivity between Galway and Cork).

If they so wish, people can keep bringing up the fact that Tuam only has a population of 3,000 and it doesn't need a motorway link to Galway. But....the fact remains that "Average Annual Daily Traffic (AADT) Counts of 139,122 for the main approach roads to Galway City have been recorded with vehicular levels in excess of 8,347 at peak hours. While these counts do not depict the purpose of travel i.e. for work/education/leisure etc, the figures at peak hours suggest a car dominated work/school related trips. Notably, the greatest traffic volumes are recorded from the east, and south eastern area with an AADT count of 95,222 for N17, R339, N6 and R338 and N18. "
[Source: Page 5 of this document]

The M17/18 is badly needed and so is the Galway Bypass (although it looks to be a long way off unfortunately). It is an environmental disaster to have the levels of traffic which were mentioned above funnelling into a small number of very underpowered junctions in Galway City. The unnecessary delays cause huge levels of unnecessary pollution.

I'm very much in favour of improvements to commuter rail in the Galway Region. I would love to see a station with a huge Park and Ride built in Oranmore, a station built in Renmore and Galway-Athenry double tracked. The M6/17/18 would feed traffic into the Oranmore P&R, indeed the Bus P&R over the Christmas period in Galway was a huge success again this year so there is certainly a market for a permanent Rail P&R. Unfortunately, it looks like rail improvements in Galway will be neglected in favour of throwing down a few random bus lanes which will do little to reduce car use/improve traffic.

w2_3vc · 29-12-2010 8:17am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nobody as in NOBODY goes from Cork to Derry on the N55, please disregard everything the AA said willya. It helps nobody, mainly you.

Priceless when your routings are found out you attack the main motorists lobby group; I am not going to repeat myself ad nauseum but in the absence of traffic counts on the commuter free section of the crayonic proposed route and in rejecting the established lobby group you are making a fool of yourself.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

So what, it will be built anyway. Have a tilt at land prices along the N28 or along the M20 instead if you must.

With a land take for Type 1 of around 5-10 HA per KM the total cost @ a most generous €10k an ACRE is around €200k per km.

The road itself will cost 10x that, no matter what.

You miss the point set out above; with funding costs in the market at 9% or IMF rates north of 6% the buy and hold strategy for land that is not needed takes any purchase to between 130% and 150% of the actual purchase price. I don't see Smurfit or Ryanair borrowing and buying things they may need in 2015; you wouldn't they are commercially smart unlike the Lenihan Bros administration in its last days.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Your An Taisces land 'costs' are a red herring , even at €1 a hectare one would still only save a fraction of the road cost.

Mentioning some spread loosening on the long one is an even redder herring

These are not An Taisce's land costs these are my own and are based on the continued elimination of dashed hope value; land values will revert to european mean AGRICULTURAL LAND VALUES as dodgy rezonings have evaporated in the face of a very unpleasant speculative bubble in poorly located land popping; the problem is that unzoned land is still falling so far so fast that no-one can put a value on it. I suggest you visit your bank manager and ask him for the funds to buy 100 acres of unzoned land; he'd have you sectioned; you'd whinge to the shrink it was all An Taisce's fault and she'd say it was the IMF cleaning up Lenihan Bros.

AADT count of 95,222 for N17, R339, N6 and R338 and N18

You have listed 5 routes which go North, South and East as though it were a single route; what is the AADT at Ballindine?

I'm very much in favour of improvements to commuter rail in the Galway Region. I would love to see a station with a huge Park and Ride built in Oranmore, a station built in Renmore and Galway-Athenry double tracked.

But if you remember the project above was dumped to build the Western Rail Corridor and Tuam Motorway. I'd agree with building the above but it would need a lot of park and ride and see the IDA concentrate new projects along its route in the way that was done with Intel; i.e. large projects with good rail access. Good luck with Galway one of the few brightspots in post Lenihan Bros Ireland; but only that way on the back of forward thinking very hi-tech not outdated models.

L1011 · 29-12-2010 11:37am

w2_3vc wrote: »

I am not a member of An Taisce

In that case why do you have a secondary account named after their HQ?

w2_3vc wrote: »

Priceless when your routings are found out you attack the main motorists lobby group;

That you think that:
1: The AA's "routings" are being done by them (they're done by a fairly poorly designed computer system)
2: The main traffic flows actually use said routings

Show that you clearly aren't much of a driver.

Aidan1 · 29-12-2010 12:08pm

To be blunt, we can't justify building motorways to every one horse town, on the off chance that they might be needed at some indeterminate point in the future. And Tuam is one such one horse town. Arguing about the populations involved is, in this case, very relevant. South of Rathmorrissey, this is a critical national route. North of it, not so much. Tuam is a dormitory town for Galway, with a very limited industrial and service base. North of Tuam there is even less in the way of industry that would demand such infrastructure.

The fundamental reason why the protesterati are arguing against a Motorway is that it will facilitiate and enable further urban generated rural house building in a part of the country that has been blighted by it. The fact that they also opposed other, far more worthy, motorway projects should be peripheral to any rational discussion of this particular case.

Personally, I think the road should be built as Motorway from Gort to the junction with the M6, and a 2+2 north north of there, and construction should be granted only on the basis of strict housing controls in Co Galway, with an emphasis on future housing being constructed within the immediate vicinity of Galway city. Speaking from prior experience, I strongly suspect that the primary reason the NRA want to build the entire thing as Motorway is so that they can use their powers under the Motorway Acts to stop LAs from caving in to 'developers'. The Roads Authority shouldn't have to also be responsible for rational spatial planning, but given the standard of local government in this country, they have little choice. The funds saved from the lower standard of road could be used on the Galway by pass (and on high quality bus services in Galway city).

Amtmann · 29-12-2010 1:51pm

Aidan1 wrote: »

The fundamental reason why the protesterati are arguing against a Motorway is that it will facilitiate and enable further urban generated rural house building in a part of the country that has been blighted by it.

Then they should attack one off rural housing directly and aggressively in my opinion, not new alignments that are needed, and they'd have my support to boot.

The fact that they also opposed other, far more worthy, motorway projects should be peripheral to any rational discussion of this particular case.

Strictly speaking you are of course correct. To me however, their constant opposition to every major road scheme pegs them as BANANAs. It makes me less inclined to listen to them. Perhaps if they chose their battles more carefully, they'd get a better hearing.

Having considered your post Aidan, I'm minded to agree with you RE Tuam.

Sponge Bob · 29-12-2010 3:00pm

The key point Aidan makes ( to my mind) is that Motorways can be protected from having bungalows built on them where the same cannot be said of WS2 and Type 2 roads ...they being not motorways.

I would be in favour of Type 2 being protected from new entrances on the same basis as motorways. Much of the good quality single carriageway primary network built in the 1960s and 1970s was rendered useless before its time by allowing country and western lounges and b and bs and tractor dealers to open shop along its length.

Had the national primary network of the 1960s and 1970s been protected then we may not have needed all the motorway network we have just built, particularly so in the midlands. We would have needed most of it on AADT grounds.

But the fact is that we did need the motorway network as now built when the result of crap or no alignment protection is that pissant towns such as Ballinasloe are over three miles long.

I would not build an explicitly 2+2 route such as the N21 through west Limerick until the full alignment was protected, quarantined and with ruthless enforcement of the existing planning laws against any incursions onto that alignment....and all that in advance of construction.

This does not in any way alter my personal view that an taisce on the whole are nothing but a scam to get scarce state money diverted to a limited number of 'green' and 'eco' type consultancies.
.

A scam is a scam, particularly when they show up here pretending not to be an taisce when they are part of that an taisce/consultancy nexus

Dick Roche had the right idea when he removed state funding from An Taisce between 2005 and 2007, fair play to Dick. Pity he did not remove their right to meddle under planning law as well, hopefully the new government removes funding and statutory basis both.

Giving these arrogant and unaccountable cultists in An Taisce any state money or any statutory right to interfere in planning is anathema to me, frankly I would rather we funded the Scientology Church instead

marmurr1916 · 29-12-2010 4:37pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Nobody as in NOBODY goes from Cork to Derry on the N55, please disregard everything the AA said willya. It helps nobody, mainly you.

A ridiculous 'argument'. Especially considering that an AA route planner once suggested that a woman travelling from the north of Britain to the south of Britain take a route via Ireland and France!

Stark · 29-12-2010 4:45pm

It's fixed now anyway. Suggests the M8 to Dublin then M1/N2 when I type in "Cork to Derry".

The NRA must be stopped

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