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Engineering / teaching maths

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,497 Mod ✭✭✭✭dambarude


    It's a bit much isn't it?

    Why don't all the unemployed architects train as DCG teachers and all
    the unemployed nurses and physiotherapists retrain as Biology teachers?
    Anyone whose profession or degree doesn't fit a subject can be primary teachers!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,372 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    they are just annoyed and having a hissy fit becasue project maths took all the university business input and haven't taken much from engineers (i.e. vectors etc being phased out) and realised they were asleep for the last few years hence all this crap today.

    P.S. Better qualified?? We all have degrees etc, what the hell does that mean??!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    Maybe I should have been a little clearer about why I am so frustrated.

    The Teaching Council of Ireland does not recognise engineering degrees as being suitable for teaching maths.

    PS
    I have a degree in engineering and a hdip.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Maybe I should have been a little clearer about why I am so frustrated.

    The Teaching Council of Ireland does not recognise engineering degrees as being suitable for teaching maths.

    PS
    I have a degree in engineering and a hdip.

    :confused: According to the Teaching Council list of recognised degrees

    The honours degree in manufacturing engineering from Bolton Street is recognised to teach maths.

    The honours degree in building services engineering from Bolton Street is recognised to teach maths.

    The honours degree in mechanical engineering from Bolton Street is recognised to teach maths.

    The honours degree in structural engineering from Bolton Street is recognised to teach maths.

    The honours degree in electronic/electrical engineering from Bolton Street is recognised to teach maths.

    The degree in electronic engineering from the Institute of Technology in Tallaght is recognised to teach maths.

    The degrees in engineering from UCC, NUIG, TCD and UCD are recognised to teach maths.


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    Yeah, that list is lies. I was quite upset by that. When I was in contact with the TC, pointing out that my degree was on that list of recognised degrees, and I'd even emailed the TC before starting the dip to check, this was part of the response:

    In any event, it is unlikely that the correspondence stated that the Bachelor of Electrical Engineering degree was recognised for the purposes of Mathematics regardless of the proportion of the content of the degree in the area of Mathematics or Applied Mathematics.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    And your degree is still on the recognised list? That's crazy. So you were qualified and now unqualified? Where do you stand now? Where do you stand legally?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,371 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    This was on the Last Word this evening but I only caught the end of it. I did hear Matt Cooper speaking to a maths teacher who did point out all the flaws : degrees that are not recognised for various reasons and of course the lack of jobs in teaching at the moment for current teachers let alone engineers who retrain.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Ah ya shir there's loadsa jobs for maths teachers these days why not give em to the engineers seeing as how nobody else is applying.....idiots:mad:

    would agree with the calculator ban though..seems that learning the tables are banned in primary schools... (at least rote learning anyhow).


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 redmons2


    You have me worried clartharlear. I will be in the same boat as you if i complete the hdip. I have an engineering degree and i am planning on doing the h dip this year.
    Where does that leave you now with the hdip and engineering degree ? Surely it cannot be advertised that the course is accepted on the TC website and allow you to complete the h dip then tell you that you cannot do the job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    I don't know where I stand, I just know that I'm very worried and upset and I have no idea where I can turn.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    redmons2 wrote: »
    You have me worried clartharlear. I will be in the same boat as you if i complete the hdip. I have an engineering degree and i am planning on doing the h dip this year.

    You may not be in the same boat if you chose different modules to clartharlear.


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    pathway33 wrote: »
    And your degree is still on the recognised list? That's crazy. So you were qualified and now unqualified? Where do you stand now? Where do you stand legally?
    That's right.

    It is my belief that there is no engineering course in Ireland with 30% of 3rd/4th year courses provided by their university maths department, as opposed to modules within the engineering department.
    My course codes began with EE, rather than MA. This is their problem.


  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭geurrp the yard


    Maybe I should have been a little clearer about why I am so frustrated.

    The Teaching Council of Ireland does not recognise engineering degrees as being suitable for teaching maths.

    PS
    I have a degree in engineering and a hdip.

    Have you not gone down the legal route? When was it introduced that you needed 30% of degree in that subject in order to teach in that subject? I dont understand why you'd be accepted to do a h-dip in the first place if you werent "qualified" and also why would enginners ireland be making this announcement when no engineering course in the country (that i know) has 30% of the modules on purely based on maths?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 redmons2


    I would have taught that if you were allowed into the hdip then your degree has been approved by the teaching council and PAC. So this does not make any sense ? They surely would not be pushing engineers to get into maths teaching if this was the case.

    If I was you I would not be letting this go. I just find it hard to believe


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,372 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    maybe your union could fight this for you? Its their job to represent us on the teaching council?

    Must say the Engineers thing is a bit of an oul moan to be honest, they should have had their input into Project Maths while they had their chance. BUt agree with the calculators thing, get rid of them


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    You're all right. It doesn't make sense, and when I started the dip, they were happy with engineering - they just changed their mind.
    I'm working in a grind school this year, so my union wouldn't let me renew my membership. I probably should go down a legal route, but I have no idea where to start with that.
    I get so frustrated and upset when I think about the issue that I haven't been proactive in dealing with it. I don't want to let it go - the past three years of my life have all been all about my teaching career! But I'm still paralysed by shock and I don't know what to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    I know you shouldn't have to do it but have you considered doing the maths modules the teaching council are looking for through distance learning e.g open university. It's an extra cost and extra study you shouldn't have to bear but the other option is getting into a long legal battle with the teaching council and losing years of your teaching career. I don't know how the pay scale works for teaching but I presume every few years you are a qualified teacher gets you a little extra euro. The cost of losing your promotion in the ranks could be more than the cost of studying the extra modules.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 redmons2


    Do you know if there is anyone else in the same situation as you ? I am sure you are not the only one who has hit this roadblock. Is it the teaching council that told you this clartharlear ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    pathway33 wrote: »
    I know you shouldn't have to do it but have you considered doing the maths modules the teaching council are looking for through distance learning e.g open university. It's an extra cost and extra study you shouldn't have to bear but the other option is getting into a long legal battle with the teaching council and losing years of your teaching career. I don't know how the pay scale works for teaching but I presume every few years you are a qualified teacher gets you a little extra euro. The cost of losing your promotion in the ranks could be more than the cost of studying the extra modules.
    It may be the what I'll have to do. The unfairness of it all breaks my heart though, and wouldn't I be all day telling teenagers that life's not fair?
    Do you know if there is anyone else in the same situation as you ? I am sure you are not the only one who has hit this roadblock. Is it the teaching council that told you this clartharlear ?
    There must be others in the same situation, but I don't know them. I'd love to hear other stories. It is the Teaching Council who are the authorities in question, yes. The IEI are only an interest group, with no actual leverage in the matter, afaik.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    It may be the what I'll have to do.

    If the open university courses are too expensive you could consider this distance learning route: http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/undergraduate/lse/dip_grad/math/index.shtml

    They say it's for less that £1,200 sterling if done in the minimum period. They also do undergraduate degrees containing maths and with graduate entry to those it would be less than £3,000 sterling. I think the teaching council have a strong favouring of undergraduate degrees to post-grad modules

    That London distance university also allows you to take stand-alone modules I think


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    pathway33 wrote: »
    If the open university courses are too expensive you could consider this distance learning route: http://www.londonexternal.ac.uk/prospective_students/undergraduate/lse/dip_grad/math/index.shtml

    They say it's for less that £1,200 sterling if done in the minimum period. They also do undergraduate degrees containing maths and with graduate entry to those it would be less than £3,000 sterling. I think the teaching council have a strong favouring of undergraduate degrees to post-grad modules

    That London distance university also allows you to take stand-alone modules I think

    Could be a good option pathway. as usual the TC could refuse this on a whim.but from reading the teaching council website 'special requirements' ...

    "The study of Mathematics as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period"

    ...would imply that 1 year of study of just maths (rather than 3 years of 30%) could satisfy the TC requirements....am i right in this assumption?

    Has ANYONE out there ever done a maths course post-H.Dip to qualify for TC subject requirements?
    Anyone ever qualified with an Open University Maths course?
    Anyone?
    ,
    ,


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Armelodie wrote: »
    "The study of Mathematics as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period"

    ...would imply that 1 year of study of just maths (rather than 3 years of 30%) could satisfy the TC requirements....am i right in this assumption?

    Anecdotally I believe they look for a certain percentage of maths modules in the final year. I think that's what they mean by 'major' (final year).

    Now if you took stand-alone modules spread over 1st year, 2nd year and 3rd year in the one year then that may satisfy them.

    Their usual position is "do the course/modules and we'll let you know after you've completed the course if it's any good or not". They have also been known to give vague guidance as to what general direction your module choice should take and how many additional credits you should obtain

    Best of luck!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Anyone ever qualified with an Open University Maths course?

    I would hope so because it's listed on their list of recognised qualifications on their website but we've seen how flexible that list can be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 redmons2


    What course did you complete for your primary engineering degree ? I understand if you don't want to tell me but I think I maybe in the same boat I am going to contact teaching council tomorrow to find out.

    I think its madness they let you do the h dip then drop this on you


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,229 ✭✭✭pathway33


    'Over half of the principals surveyed said it was difficult to find suitably qualified maths teachers'

    http://www.careerguidance.ie/news/news.php?newsId=307


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,372 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Did any of ye see the Ex INtel chairman calling on Maths should not be taught by anyone who doesn't have a maths degree. Where do these people come up with these ideas..........


  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    redmons2 wrote: »
    What course did you complete for your primary engineering degree ? I understand if you don't want to tell me but I think I maybe in the same boat I am going to contact teaching council tomorrow to find out.
    Electrical Engineering in UCC. Did you get onto the TC?? Please let me know how you get on!
    I think its madness they let you do the h dip then drop this on you
    I agree!:mad:

    This phrase
    suitably qualified maths teachers
    is a minefield.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 redmons2


    I still have to get onto them. I will let you know what they say


  • Registered Users Posts: 26 redmons2


    I don't blame you for being annoyed there should be some sort of link with pac and the tc so people don't go and get themselves into this situation. This is something i need to get done before applying to the course. It doesn't make sense that an engineering course which is highly intensive maths is not enough to teach maths.

    Was there many in your pgde class that were maths teachers ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭clartharlear


    You're in the exact same situation as me so, except I didn't even find out till a few months after I finished my PGDE.

    For the sake of interest, these are my 3rd and 4th year modules that the TC deem not mathsy enough:
    3rd year:
    Electromagnetic Field Theory (Applied Maths - all other modules are engineering)
    Control Engineering
    Electrical Machine and Power Electronics
    RF Circuit Theory
    Analogue and Digital Signal Processing
    Mechanical Engineering
    Analogue Integrated Circuits
    4th Year:
    Power Electronics
    Control Engineering
    Telecommunications
    Mechatronics and Industrial Automation
    Power Supply Systems
    Engineering Management
    Production Engineering
    Digital IC Design


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