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UFO Phenomenon - Any real scientific material

  • 20-06-2011 9:26pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭


    I'm genuinely interested in reading material on peer reviewed scientific study of UFO phenomenon. I find that much of the research in the area is clouded by self interest. What I mean is the sort who make a lot of money from selling books and dvds of recycled material. Whats much harder to find is published papers written by people with a science background who have no particular axe to grind one way or another.

    I am definitely in the sceptics camp on this particular issue however I do think this is an area which needs investigation by qualified individuals. Sadly the area is littered with a lot of claims by people who are neither qualified scientifically or motivationally to properly asses the phenomenon.

    I have come across some government research and declassified documents which don't really say an awful lot.

    So if you have anything of interest please let me know. Just to be clear what I am not looking for is, youtube links, links to sites offering to sell me books or dvds, sites claiming to have documentary evidence but actually produce nothing.

    Thanks in advance.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    It's notable that UFO's have only been around since the advent of aeroplanes.

    If there really is such a thing as UFO's, they would have been around for centuries. Curious that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Agreed easychair, its also noticable how the descriptions of 'flying saucers' with a little dome on top and three legs and a little green man inside changes into multi faceted, geometric designs, glowing orbs etc in keeping with the pace of sci-fi.

    In fairness if its Unidentified, and its flying and it is likely to be an object then its a UFO, what I don't see the evidence for is that UFO's are of ET origin.

    Clearly the vast majority of 'sightings' can be classified as either, mistaken naturally occurring or man made phenomenon, (meteors, satellites, fireworks, astronomical phenomenon etc....). People just don't understand what they are looking at. Another large group of sightings relate to pure lies and fanciful imaginations. The whole area is utterly confused by nonsense presented as evidence.

    What I'd like to see, if it exists, is the very best evidence to suggest that there is something worthy of further investigation. I'm not really holding my breath though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    Hi Gremlin- I'm pretty interested in the phenomenon too. Unfortunately the subject is so overwhelmed by all the utter bullshít and mystical/psychic/utter nutter babble that it is often difficult to cut through to a proper rational evaluation.

    I have come across some scientific journals that deal with the topic but they seemed a little shoddy and I don't think there is anything up to date there.

    If I were to point you in any direction it would be towards the COMETA report commissioned by the French government. Also, there is a book now out authored by Leslie Kean which is a pretty compelling read. Kean has taken the best cases available and reproduced first hand testimonies of extremely credible people who have witnessed unexplained events. She takes into account events that have had multiple witnesses which were backed up by multiple modes e.g ground radar, on board radar and eyewitnesses- so the fact that something was there is difficult to dispute, the question is what that something is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    easychair wrote: »
    It's notable that UFO's have only been around since the advent of aeroplanes.

    If there really is such a thing as UFO's, they would have been around for centuries. Curious that.

    What kind of a comment is that ? if you haven't a rats arse about the subject then I suggest you surf the web for an hour and come back.:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    if you guys really are looking for evidence, why not start by looking at the sky?

    there's such an interesting psychological factor involved in the subject.. kinda like everyones hesitant, some are very sure, some want concrete proof that they can smell, others just want a scientist to tell them everythings alright, and then well.. some are downright whack outta the ball park.

    i can tell you from first hand experience, if you see it for yourself, well then there's a much bigger picture to look at.

    i was reading a thread you started earlier gremlin..
    As someone who looks for a rational explanation in most things, my head tells me that the some combination of the above explains this, however even though 30 years have passed since this event, it refuses to leave me and deep down the need to understand this event still lingers.

    my experiences were so out of this world pretty much all of my friends ridicule me for it (bar one, whos had his own), in fact most times i cant even talk to anyone about them (here we go again syndrome) and that is really frustrating on so many levels.. thankfully we have the internet where we have an outlet for these kinds of things. its gotten to the stage where i almost surpress my experiences because, whats the fcukin point talking to people about it? its like im meant to be the meccah of scientific information and have picture perfect evidence of what ive seen to show to people, like that would make any difference at all?!

    went on a bit of a tangent there, but in respect to why i quoted you gremlin, many of the things ive seen did happen when i was on my own (but not all, mind you).. so ive gone through quite a bit of self evaluation.. but still come to the conclusion.. no these werent random figments of my imagination, they actually happened..

    its actually freakin hilarious that weve spent hundreds of years turning to each other sayin.. did you see that? nope.. oh well.. it was nothing.

    does it show how little we believe in our own reality, or is it more about how insecure we are in ourselves?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    charlemont wrote: »
    What kind of a comment is that ? if you haven't a rats arse about the subject then I suggest you surf the web for an hour and come back.:)

    and to that i shall say.. touche


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    dyer wrote: »
    if you guys really are looking for evidence, why not start by looking at the sky?

    Dyer, thanks for the input. I spend pretty much every clear night looking at the sky as astronomy is my primary passion. Given that I've been doing this over 30 years and to date I've seen nothing that I can't explain, why is it then that others see lots of interesting events which they are convinced are ET visitors? So I would further your statement quoted above by urging people not to just go and look at the sky, but learn about it.

    I know we had a discussion previously about astronomers and if they do/don't see these things. You kindly provided a link, which I did in fact spend a lot of time reviewing. The main difficulty I had with it was actually finding anything that could be substantiated. The vast majority were people who call themselves astronomers. What I mean is that its quite easy to call yourself something, its a different thing altogether to demonstrate a credibility in the subject area. Much of the stuff from the distant past is likely exxplained by our better understanding of optics and optical abberations.

    Dyer, I would never ridicule anyone for sharing experiences. I would be the sort of person to listen and try and help the person understand (if possible). The problem I found in doing this (and I'm not saying that your this sort of person) is that some people don't want an explanation. They feel that these experiences mark them as special and are to be treasured and don't want some little upstart science nerd bringing their beliefs crashing down. I had quite an extreme case of this a few months back where a guy in a pub got extremely annoyed (to the point where I was worried he was going to swing at me) when I tried to explain that his alien visitor was really a chinese lantern.
    dyer wrote: »
    there's such an interesting psychological factor involved in the subject.. kinda like everyones hesitant, some are very sure, some want concrete proof that they can smell, others just want a scientist to tell them everythings alright, and then well.. some are downright whack outta the ball park.

    Very well put. I find the human factor of all this almost as interesting as the subject area.

    I also think your bang on about human insecurity. We only have to look at all the whacko conspiracy theories to see that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    Dyer, thanks for the input. I spend pretty much every clear night looking at the sky as astronomy is my primary passion. Given that I've been doing this over 30 years and to date I've seen nothing that I can't explain, why is it then that others see lots of interesting events which they are convinced are ET visitors? So I would further your statement quoted above by urging people not to just go and look at the sky, but learn about it.

    i thought about figuring that in there, but then, dont you have to start somewhere? i cannot explain why youve never seen anything you cant explain, what are the odds, they must be astronomical! but it only takes one to get lucky wouldnt you agree? stars that appeared 'weird' to one person, became a supernova to another, or a quasar or whatever, people who had enough insight to see much farther than most.. it just takes the right person at the right time with the right idea to figure alot of this stuff out.. and funnily enough, it appears to be by random chance, a thousand years might well pass before we find another einstein or newton who just clicks all these funny pieces together.
    I would be the sort of person to listen and try and help the person understand (if possible).
    my only problem here is, maybe in some cases you might be right on the money.. but what about the ones that you cant understand? .. maybe you should just listen?

    .. if you want to find ufos, your best bet is to look when everyone else is asleep.. though this isnt scientific fact, its a good rule of thumb :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    easychair wrote: »
    It's notable that UFO's have only been around since the advent of aeroplanes.

    If there really is such a thing as UFO's, they would have been around for centuries. Curious that.

    Theres a whole bunch of research linking UFOs to DMT - a drug that is naturally produced and found in mushrooms. Before UFOs, faries were the popular thing. Both were circular (ufos and fairy rings), both abducted people and there were various other simularities. Some researchers believe that a) these are not hallucinations as much as different dimensions and b) its really just our own culture viewpoint that has changed - what we once viewed as faries, we now view as UFOs.

    There is much talk of various dimensions in science these days, so its an interesting idea. aliens might not be from a different planet, but instead from a different dimension.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    I'd add that, in the age where everything is now captured in pictures or film via cell phones, it's also curious how no one has yet produced film or pics of UFO's landing on Earth before they abduct humans, or in the process of abducting humans by other humans who are not abducted.

    While we would all be foolish to dismiss the possibility, it's also evident that there is no proper evidence of UFO, and the stories are always incomplete and lacking proper evidence.

    I've often seen strange shaped flying objects in the sky, only to see after a while that it's a plane viewed from one angle, perhaps while the plane is turning, and for it to be clearly seen as a plane when it turns enough for me to view it properly.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16 Geminian




  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Geminian wrote: »

    That is not evidence, that is a collection of perfectly explainable (and in most cases explained) phenomenon and or deliberate hoaxes (e.g. the jerusalem one), not so clever music and shots of a lot of people looking into the sky. This is a fine example of why youtube videos are so completely and utterly useless. All they do is just muddy the waters and prevent informed research of UFO phenomenon. What is more annoying is that the author of the video uses a hubble space telescope shot of what was imediately identified as colliding asteroids. The author knows this and he also knows that the vast majority of people watching will just accept it without question.


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    easychair wrote: »
    I've often seen strange shaped flying objects in the sky, only to see after a while that it's a plane viewed from one angle, perhaps while the plane is turning, and for it to be clearly seen as a plane when it turns enough for me to view it properly.

    Exactly. Quite often I see satellites doing odd looking stuff. For example just tonight I walked out and saw a very bright star in the north, it got steadily brighter then just vanished. Turns out after a bit of digging it was a geostationary satellite catching a glint from the Sun. As the earth turned the angle changes and the object winks out. Another morning I saw a ball like object shoot across the cloudbase. Took me a while to figure this one out. Turns out this was the suns rays departing from the point where they were parallel to the cloud base and as the suns position shifted very slightly over a couple of seconds, it made this effect on the base of the clouds. Since then I've seen it happen on another two occassions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Astronomy and photographic proof
    The Dogons of Mali,incredibly,knew of the star sirius centuries before human astronomers located it. other ufo witnesses have spoken of meetings with beings who came from planets as yet undiscovered-galaxies other then our milkly way. Earthly science says this is impossible.....yet, how is this possible!?
    during the nineteeth century astronomer's often saw ''meteors'' which behaved oddly. One mystery occured at the observatory at zacatecas{ Up in the Mexican Mountains}.
    jose bonilla had been investigating sunspots and was using a camera attached to the telescope to record them,glowing objects were crossing the face of the sun so he took pictures to prove this was no hallucination.
    bonilla reported in the astronomical press; and i quote....

    I was able to fix there trajectory across the solar disk....some appeared round or spherical,but one notes in the photographs that the bodys are not spherical but irregular in form.
    before crossing the solar disk these bodys threw out brilliant trains of light but in crossing the sun they seem to become opaque and dark against its brighter background.

    Bonilla was convinced the objects were not as far as the moon away but just outside the earths atmosphere all the same.
    he was the first to prove he saw a ufo by taking its photograph.
    that was in August 1883.

    Back to nowadays...
    The high level of ifo's within the ufo evidence does not consign the mystery of ufos to the relms of the solved world, even with known developed stealth aircraft it is almost certain tests were carried out,One that comes to mind is the RPV- remotely piloted vehicles{ like model aircraft} which is used to go into enemy territory.
    Britain is at the forefront of such craft and have being used over northern ireland in the past.NOT everything in the sky is meant to be there!!

    I do find it odd that over 100 years has pasted since the first ufo photograph.....and still with technology people can't see the photographic proof!? nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject.

    just to add, Another time to sky watch for ufo's is after a spell of bad weather ,the frontal pressure systems responsible for this change can spring ufo active areas into life......so its worth a go were ever you live!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    maccored wrote: »
    There is much talk of various dimensions in science these days, so its an interesting idea. aliens might not be from a different planet, but instead from a different dimension.

    ... and maybe they are not. Again alternate dimensions are just a hypothetical postulation. Even if they did exist there can be no assumption that they can in any way interact withour own reality. When you have two possibilites, i.e. 1 - UFO sightings are caused by interaction with an alternate reality or 2 - UFO sightings are nothing more than popular culture being used to explain perfectly naturally occuring phenomenon, then is it not reasonable to take the view that the one which doesn't require any science outside of our current understanding is the likely answer?


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    jonbravo wrote: »
    jose bonilla

    ....photographed high flying geese.


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Gremlin wrote: »
    ....photographed high flying geese.
    one persons geese is another mans ufo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    The one I talk about in that thread is interesting, scroll down a bit, I can't sufficiently explain it.


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056284240


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    The DMT argument is very persuasive - plus it explains how people can claim to be abducted in the middle of a city yet no-one else ever seems to witness the event.

    Graham Hancock wrote a great book on it - http://home.comcast.net/~lang.craig/DMT_PSI.htm . Check out the Coast to Coast interview as well
    Gremlin wrote: »
    ... and maybe they are not. Again alternate dimensions are just a hypothetical postulation. Even if they did exist there can be no assumption that they can in any way interact withour own reality. When you have two possibilites, i.e. 1 - UFO sightings are caused by interaction with an alternate reality or 2 - UFO sightings are nothing more than popular culture being used to explain perfectly naturally occuring phenomenon, then is it not reasonable to take the view that the one which doesn't require any science outside of our current understanding is the likely answer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    i think in respect to the OP, abductions are a whole other kettel of fish.. first we must ascertain whether ufo's actually exist or not. even as a firm blue in the face believer of ufos, i remain on the fence with regards to abductions but i can't discount other peoples experiences just because they're not my own.

    some food for thought: i know you didnt ask for 'youtube' links and such but this documentary pertaining to animal mutilations just happens to be hosted there.

    Silent Killers
    Richard D. Hall investigates the subject of Animal Mutilation in the U.K. In various locations within the UK, there are incidents of recurring animal deaths. The injuries on the animals are totally in-explicable showing surgical precision.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,650 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Gremlin wrote: »
    ... and maybe they are not. Again alternate dimensions are just a hypothetical postulation. Even if they did exist there can be no assumption that they can in any way interact withour own reality. When you have two possibilites, i.e. 1 - UFO sightings are caused by interaction with an alternate reality or 2 - UFO sightings are nothing more than popular culture being used to explain perfectly naturally occuring phenomenon, then is it not reasonable to take the view that the one which doesn't require any science outside of our current understanding is the likely answer?

    I have to say, Im glad science has never adopted this attitude, since if it did it would have died a death and stagnated years ago. Plus, you say 'hypothetical postulation' whereas many scientists now view alternate dimensions as decent theory. check out the second show ("Is There an Edge to the Universe?") of the new series of Through the Wormhole - theres a few of them on that talking about such things.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 autocharge


    Looks like people have being seeing strange things in the sky for a very long time http://alien-ufo-research.com/aliens_in_ancient_history/


  • Registered Users Posts: 969 ✭✭✭murrayp4


    Here is Prof Michio Kaku's take on UFOs

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pw13F7ahjY



  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I do genuinely appreciate it, even if I don't necessarily concurr with your opinions, I am genuinely enjoying reviewing all of this.

    What I'm really trying to acheive here is stripping away the red herrings (and I'm sure most will agree there's an awful lot of it) to see what's really there which stands up to scrutiny. Honestly I am genuinely open to some of the ideas presented.

    I suppose what it really boils down to from a personal level is what burden of proof do you place on yourself before you accept something as fact. In my case the requirements are pretty rigorous. However I personally wouldn't have it any other way. In review I do think its a little unfair of me to so agressively try to strip some of this stuff apart here so I wont be doing that anymore to such an extent. I'll do that off board so to speak.

    From my own POV what I'm seeing is that really there is no 'proof' per-se. What it comes down to is a personal choice whether you accept what your presented with and are prepared to take at least a bit of a leap of faith to draw the conclusion that UFO phenomenon are real and are of ET phenomenon. Until I see something more convincing, I'm not prepared to do that just yet. This is just my opinion which I certainly think is just as valid (but not in any way more so) than everyone elses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,987 ✭✭✭Ziycon


    Over the years I've investigated and looked into many reports from within and around Ireland and to date I've only come across a handful of reports that where 'unexplainable', thats not to say they are out of this world or ET in origin but merely that the source/origin is unknown to myself and anyone investigating the report.

    You can't give any unexplained sighting/incident any label apart from unknown for the simple fact that you have no basis to put any source/origin to it, its like being a IT engineer and diagnosing a medical condition on a sick patient, its just ludicrous, you have no idea were to start when labeling the unknown incident/object.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to explain all reports but its just not always going to be possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Ziycon, Excellent post. Without trying to sound too patronising, I think you and your organisation provide exactly the sort of rational, non-emotional analysis that the field desparately need. Sadly a group like yours is less vocal than the hysterical mobs that are so easy to find on the net. Probably more importantly you attempt to gain nothing from it except knowledge. Sadly there are qute a few who see the dollar signs when the word UFO is mentioned. I've been looking through your website. I see a reference to Betty Meyler RIP. A lovely lady with whom I've had the pleasure of discussing with a few times. Although as you can imagine, we didn't always see eye to eye on this subject area but I always respected her motives and her deep seated beliefs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    ....and sometimes you just gotta laugh.

    http://alien-ufo-research.com/alien_pictures/

    Look at the very last one of the page in particular 'Accidental Alien Snap Shot-Chile'. Gave me a good old fashioned giggle.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 598 ✭✭✭dyer


    with respect to your last post gremlin, i would whole heartedly agree, i used to be on your side of the fence, but for some peculiar reason found myself in the middle of such experiences that threw me very much, over the fence.. and while i still totally respect your stance on these matters, i can't wait around wasting my breath trying to convince you otherwise (though obviously you never asked for that :)... which is why i suggested you start looking at the sky, because there is no material evidence that exists that will convice you otherwise unless you witness it with your own eyes. we dont have any information because its all UP there (and because 'they' are way ahead of us in any sense of the word).. we dont have scientific evidence because science has failed us..and these days is very much governed by grants and ideals that will make money... and to a certain degree, because scientists are so self involved in the things we cant see, that they fob off all those things that people can see.. as if people cant accurately describe their experiences unless theyre scientists themselves? people profess science to be so perfect, but even science itself, regardless of its rigour, falls prey to the weakness in our intellect.. god knows how many times it took a few hundred years for a mathematical proof or such to ring true in our little heads.. no matter how 'wrong' the most prestigious minds alive would have professed or made us believe otherwise.

    there is so much knowledge available to people these days if anyone has the slightest bit of sense they can make good use of it. without passion, those things are meaningless.. and to to antother extent, there are people far more knowledgeable about things that could never be taught in any school. for me .. there's such irony in the fact that we have an organisation like SETI thats spends millions upon millions scanning the universe for life when its right here in our face.. nevermind the fact that the they tune their instruments in such an infantile way (but i do commend them for trying) .. but what a waste of potential..

    edit ( i was so drunk when i wrote this :rolleyes: )


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 905 ✭✭✭easychair


    jonbravo wrote: »
    Astronomy and photographic proof
    The Dogons of Mali,incredibly,knew of the star sirius centuries before human astronomers located it. other ufo witnesses have spoken of meetings with beings who came from planets as yet undiscovered-galaxies other then our milkly way. Earthly science says this is impossible.....yet, how is this possible!?
    during the nineteeth century astronomer's often saw ''meteors'' which behaved oddly. One mystery occured at the observatory at zacatecas{ Up in the Mexican Mountains}.
    jose bonilla had been investigating sunspots and was using a camera attached to the telescope to record them,glowing objects were crossing the face of the sun so he took pictures to prove this was no hallucination.
    bonilla reported in the astronomical press; and i quote....

    I was able to fix there trajectory across the solar disk....some appeared round or spherical,but one notes in the photographs that the bodys are not spherical but irregular in form.
    before crossing the solar disk these bodys threw out brilliant trains of light but in crossing the sun they seem to become opaque and dark against its brighter background.

    Bonilla was convinced the objects were not as far as the moon away but just outside the earths atmosphere all the same.
    he was the first to prove he saw a ufo by taking its photograph.
    that was in August 1883.

    Back to nowadays...
    The high level of ifo's within the ufo evidence does not consign the mystery of ufos to the relms of the solved world, even with known developed stealth aircraft it is almost certain tests were carried out,One that comes to mind is the RPV- remotely piloted vehicles{ like model aircraft} which is used to go into enemy territory.
    Britain is at the forefront of such craft and have being used over northern ireland in the past.NOT everything in the sky is meant to be there!!

    I do find it odd that over 100 years has pasted since the first ufo photograph.....and still with technology people can't see the photographic proof!? nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject.

    just to add, Another time to sky watch for ufo's is after a spell of bad weather ,the frontal pressure systems responsible for this change can spring ufo active areas into life......so its worth a go were ever you live!!

    Of course, there are lots of things which remain unexplained. But thats not to say the only possible explanation is UFO's. I find it hard to take "after a spell of bad weather ,the frontal pressure systems responsible for this change can spring ufo active areas into life.." seriously, and can't imagine there are lots of UFO lying dormant somewhere, just waiting for a spell of bad weather before springing into life.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 358 ✭✭Gremlin


    Jonbravo's post highlights something which I think is crucial in all of this. If you look at this well written piece you might be forgiven for becoming a beleiver. However when taken in isolation, each of the points , i.e. the dogons, bonilla's sighting etc, don't stand up to scrutiny.

    With due respect to jonbravo, the line near the end "nor will i do anyone else's homework with regard this subject." is interesting. Quite often its science and the skeptics which are accused of being closed minded and blinkered. In fact if you are willing to spend some time looking at the truth of the mystery its not that hard to find that there is no mystery at all. I find that 'some' beleivers are just not prepared to do this basic research. They will just accept the mysterious explanation. So I would argue that in fact its often the beleivers who need to do their homework.

    The guy who writes the captions in the 'alien pictures' link posted above is also interesting. If you read the captions its clear that this guy wholeheartedly believes that these are all alien pictures. One line in particular stood out. About half way down 'Slightly Mangled Alien Picture on Bed-1954' Now whatever you say about these it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that this may well be a picture of a poor sod who met his/her demise in a pretty nasty way (maybe burned). However the caption reads. 'This is a pretty good picture of an alien lying on what appears to be a hospital bed.'. The interesting bit is that the author is prepared to consider that the device the remains lie on may or may not be a hospital bed, but he/she is not prepared to consider that their may be another explanation for what lies on it.


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