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Worldwide Occupy Movement?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Godge I'm sure I've probably asked you this before, but all partuisan bickering aside, where do you actually stand on the financial sector? What's your opinion on it?

    Do you regard what went wrong as 'mistakes', or 'deliberate, greedy "as long as I'm ok no one else matters"-ism' on the part of those in charge of it?

    I think that's where our key ideological disagreement is here, you regard it as an accident, I (and other what you define as 'hard left' protesters) regard it as deliberate corruption for which the perpetrators should be penalized.

    Thoughts?

    Yes, I think you have asked me before and I think I have answered but in case it is lost here goes.

    The Irish financial crisis (and this is the one that affects us) was partly caused by the global events. However, and this is the important point, most of it is down to domestic events. Firstly, there was the stupidly over-confident David Drumm and Sean Fitzpatrick who believed they could build a third force in Irish banking and who convinced thousands of shareholders, investers, government ministers and officials and loan customers, mostly businessmen that their stupid foolish dream could come true.

    Secondly, there was the stupid reaction of the other banks who saw the Anglo model, and under pressure from shareholders and borrowers followed suit. They were supported in this endeavour by weak regulation from the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator which were retirement homes for former Department of Finance officials.

    Thirdly, there was the reaction of the average gombeen Irishman who saw a chance to make a buck through property. The result of all of that was an unsustainable property boom in Ireland. When the financial markets went wallop we were at the top of the boom, the closest analogy I can think of is that Coyote character in the Road Runner cartoon who keeps running after the cliff has run out and suddently realises there is a long way to fall.

    Fourthly, there was the incredible stupidity of Cowen, McCreevy, Ahern and Lenihan who attached our government finances both expenditure and tax on to the back of the property boom and said "let the good times roll". Their approach to regulation also played a huge part. What's more, despite being warned about them, the stupid Irish voters (nearly half of them) re-elected this crowd in 2007.

    So most of the mess was created by ourselves which we then proceeded to make even worse by our response to the crisis. The bank guarantee introduced by Brian Lenihan in September 2008 was the single most stupid decision ever taken in the history of the state. There were other solutions available (letting Anglo and Irish Nationwide go bust and take AIB and BOI into state ownership) that would have cost less but it seems that Lenihan was influenced by advice he got from David Mcwilliams (google McWilliams own accounts of their meetings) though the media economist tends to distance himself from that advice these days (wouldn't you?)

    Well, the bank guarantee didn't work, our EU partners were furious with us - read the UK reaction at the time, and already faced with a collapse in property tax revenue and an increasing social welfare bill leaving us with a huge hole in our public finances, we now had added on a bank recapitalisation bill (though this is smaller than the structural deficit problem). As a result of that the country was in sh1t and eventually we had to call in the IMF and the EU to bail us out.

    So who do I blame? I blame the incompetence and stupidity of bankers, politicians, regulators, shareholders, civil servants, borrowers and also the Irish people themselves. We made this mess, the onus is on us to clean it up. Harsh truth but reality. There is nobody who lived in Ireland who didn't benefit from the boom. The kids got higher child benefit than anywhere in Europe, the pensioners got higher pensions, the civil servants got higher pay, anyone on social welfare got better benefits than anywhere else, we had lower income taxes. We all benefitted and joined in apart from a few who warned about the dangers. Those that didn't accepted the democratic outcome and the legitimacy of the decisions made by FF governments - where were the protesters in 2005, 2006 and 2007 about the increases in social welfare and the cuts in taxation? Too busy protesting about snails in Kildare or a couple of kms of pipeline in Mayo. You dropped the ball on the real issues, lads.

    Was there corruption? No, I don't think so in regard to the major decisions. We elected the politicians who took the disastorous decisions on tax and spending, we then re-elected the same crowd with a few Greens and they took the bank guarantee decision. Those are the things that made the mess, nothing corrupt about that.

    Was there something going on in the banks? The Quinn loans, the director loans in Anglo, Fingleton in Irish Nationwide, there may have been breaches of company and/or fraud law in these cases, let us wait and see but I very much doubt that the major decisions that caused the problem were corrupt. They were made by stupid incompetent politicians (or their appointees) who the electorate stupidly elected.

    So yes, I am very angry about what happened, but I also realise that we have made our bed in this situation and we have to sleep in it, uncomfortable and all as that is. What annoys me about the people who end up in groups like the ULA, PfP and ODS, is their point-blank refusal as Irishmen and Irishwomen to accept that this is our own fault and instead of protesting and crying and looking around for someone else to blame, we should just get on with the task on rebuilding this country and economy, something I believe is eminently possible.

    Rant over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 wearytraveller


    Godge wrote: »

    So yes, I am very angry about what happened, but I also realise that we have made our bed in this situation and we have to sleep in it, uncomfortable and all as that is. What annoys me about the people who end up in groups like the ULA, PfP and ODS, is their point-blank refusal as Irishmen and Irishwomen to accept that this is our own fault and instead of protesting and crying and looking around for someone else to blame, we should just get on with the task on rebuilding this country and economy, something I believe is eminently possible.

    Rant over.

    But surely the average person-on-the-street, maybe with a mortgage, children, maybe about to lose their job if they haven't already, can't do a lot towards rebuilding this country. So you are saying that they should quietly, and without protest, continue to make cutbacks, struggle to pay the bills, pay ever increasing taxes and hope that our leaders (who, as you say, haven't had the best record over the last few decades) will sort it all out in our best interests?
    I would also like to mention that the €1.25bn that was paid to Anglo Irish Bank on 25th January was not covered by the bank guarantee scheme, and had already been sold by the original bondholders at a 50% discount. So the people who received that vast sum of money made an instant, undeserved windfall of €62500000000
    I personally believe that is not something that comes under the heading of 'we all made this bed so we must lie in it'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    But surely the average person-on-the-street, maybe with a mortgage, children, maybe about to lose their job if they haven't already, can't do a lot towards rebuilding this country. So you are saying that they should quietly, and without protest, continue to make cutbacks, struggle to pay the bills, pay ever increasing taxes and hope that our leaders (who, as you say, haven't had the best record over the last few decades) will sort it all out in our best interests?

    That is not the average person on the street.

    (1) There are 400,000 unemployed but there are 1.8 million employed, the average person is employed (or supported by someone who is employed).

    (2) Figures from the 2006 Census indicated that around 40% of households were in owner-occupied homes that had a mortgage outstanding while 35% of households owned their home outright. The remaining 25% of household were mainly in Local Authority or private rented accommodation. So less than 50% have a mortgage.

    (3) I can't find figures for children, but I would again suspect that less than 50% of households have children under 18 but I may be wrong. Either way, enough above to show your averge household isn't average.

    (4) Our leaders now are different to the leaders who over the last 15 years brought us into this mess. It is something that the ODS people don't seem to have realised - we had a democratic election and threw out the government that made the mess. Just because a small group of people don't like the result doesn't mean that new group don't deserve their five years to have a go at cleaning the mess up.

    I would also like to mention that the €1.25bn that was paid to Anglo Irish Bank on 25th January was not covered by the bank guarantee scheme, and had already been sold by the original bondholders at a 50% discount. So the people who received that vast sum of money made an instant, undeserved windfall of €62500000000
    I personally believe that is not something that comes under the heading of 'we all made this bed so we must lie in it'


    Those people took a gamble that paid off. You guarantee the banks, it is very difficult to unguarantee them, all of it flows from the stupid FF decision, I just hope the people of this country never forget that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    I think the real core of the original Occupy movement ( not the various hangers on and interest groups that have since hitched their sail to the overall mast) would be a lot closer ideologically to the libertarian movement than many ere would like or want to believe tbh.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    I wouldn't suggest that the two movements are identical, but there are similarities as you point out. I would suggest that there would be quite a few within the "core" of Occupy who would quite a bit in common with the libertarians out there, thats all.

    On here particularly, it appears to have become a battle between the Libs and Occupiers and I would say that really thats a bit silly in some ways. From what I've read, it is the various "outsiders" who have since got involved with Occupy who have diluted the message to encompass all sorts of other things, such as Shell to Sea, ULA and others here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Not this again.

    The problem isn't government. The problem is corruption of government by the wealthy and the powerful.

    Government is a function of democracy. Without it the rule of the powerful and wealthy will only be more absolute and afford people LESS freedom as was seen before democratic revolution around the world. Eliminating government is not and cannot be the solution. Removing corrupting influence from government is what we should all be striving for. This is what the occupy movement stands for.

    Modern libertarianism isn't at all about freedom even though it attempts very skillfully to adorn itself in that cloak. It is only about freedom for the ultra powerful to do whatever the hell they want and if the vast majority of us get screwed in the process, suffer or are limited in our freedoms, that's just too bad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    You want to drastically limit the power of government. You want to cut taxes drastically. I'm sure you'd rather if there was no tax at all. Libertarians have argued similarly in the past on boards (i believe). You want to minimise deregulation and give corporations free reign.

    When you want to clamp down on some of the most important purposes government then that is in effect what you are taking about. Please don't drag me into another pointless argument on semantics. But this is what libertarians do. They hide behind semantics because of how ludicrous and antidemocratic their philosophy is repeatedly shown to be when it's exposed under the full light of day.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    On here particularly, it appears to have become a battle between the Libs and Occupiers and I would say that really thats a bit silly in some ways. From what I've read, it is the various "outsiders" who have since got involved with Occupy who have diluted the message to encompass all sorts of other things, such as Shell to Sea, ULA and others here.

    That's probably true, but given Occupy's democratic nature if they're promoting a campaign like Shell to Sea it means a majority involved support it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Like I said, getting caught in semantics again. I'm sure there is a distinction, but the extent to which the libertarians want to 'limit' government is so drastic that in comparison to what we consider government today, what you will have will barely be a husk.

    Libertarian philosophy seems to think that there should be very little actual GOVERNING that should be done by the government. They want to trust individuals to govern themselves.

    For all intents and purposes you're talking about the elimination of government.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    I want motherhood and apple pie. I want children dancing at the crossroads. I want everyone to have their own four-bedroomed house with a large garden somewhere nice in the countryside with fast broadband and public transport every five minutes to take them to work. They should also have two cars, an apartment in Spain and three holidays a year.

    I guess we would all vote for that.

    You sound like a Fine Gael TD.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Occupy will eventually end up being a good thing for investors. Having an industry so dominated by a few players who make up their own rules is distorting the market. The small investment house does not have access to the same information the bigger players have and are subject to the big messes they make. People who want to buy a financial product cannot believe that the product is what the seller and the ratings company claim it is. Proper legislation to make the seller responsible for the product being sold would be a huge boost to the small investor. Same as it is for normal consumers.
    The other investment houses must be sick of seeing the big few constantly bailed out for their mistakes while the smaller places pay the price. If Occupy results in some more legislation to reign in some of the cowboys it will be a good thing for all of society especially people looking to invest.

    These are a few bits of advice from the journalist Matt Tabbi who has been covering the financial crisis from the start. Check out his other articles particularly why isn't wall st in jail.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/my-advice-to-the-occupy-wall-street-protesters-20111012

    1. Break up the monopolies. The so-called "Too Big to Fail" financial companies – now sometimes called by the more accurate term "Systemically Dangerous Institutions" – are a direct threat to national security. They are above the law and above market consequence, making them more dangerous and unaccountable than a thousand mafias combined. There are about 20 such firms in America, and they need to be dismantled; a good start would be to repeal the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and mandate the separation of insurance companies, investment banks and commercial banks.

    2. Pay for your own bailouts. A tax of 0.1 percent on all trades of stocks and bonds and a 0.01 percent tax on all trades of derivatives would generate enough revenue to pay us back for the bailouts, and still have plenty left over to fight the deficits the banks claim to be so worried about. It would also deter the endless chase for instant profits through computerized insider-trading schemes like High Frequency Trading, and force Wall Street to go back to the job it's supposed to be doing, i.e., making sober investments in job-creating businesses and watching them grow.

    3. No public money for private lobbying. A company that receives a public bailout should not be allowed to use the taxpayer's own money to lobby against him. You can either suck on the public teat or influence the next presidential race, but you can't do both. Butt out for once and let the people choose the next president and Congress.

    4. Tax hedge-fund gamblers. For starters, we need an immediate repeal of the preposterous and indefensible carried-interest tax break, which allows hedge-fund titans like Stevie Cohen and John Paulson to pay taxes of only 15 percent on their billions in gambling income, while ordinary Americans pay twice that for teaching kids and putting out fires. I defy any politician to stand up and defend that loophole during an election year.

    5. Change the way bankers get paid. We need new laws preventing Wall Street executives from getting bonuses upfront for deals that might blow up in all of our faces later. It should be: You make a deal today, you get company stock you can redeem two or three years from now. That forces everyone to be invested in his own company's long-term health – no more Joe Cassanos pocketing multimillion-dollar bonuses for destroying the AIGs of the world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 788 ✭✭✭SupaNova


    Much easier to avoid conflicts of interest with credit rating agencies if investors relied on their own do diligence or rating agencies funded by investors like the Egan-Jones Ratings Company.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    SupaNova wrote: »
    Much easier to avoid conflicts of interest with credit rating agencies if investors relied on their own do diligence or rating agencies funded by investors like the Egan-Jones Ratings Company.

    Wouldn't that price out the smaller investors who would not have the access or resources to study thousands of individual mortgages for example. What about people who bought shares in something like Anglo, they wouldn't have known about the bread a breakfast deal or golden circle deals. The information they are getting is incorrect much to their detriment. Those in the know can make off like bandits though.
    If you buy a product in a shop and its defective or not what you wanted the seller has to offer a refund why not the same with financial products? If a AAA rated investment turns out to be junk the seller should be held responsible. Lots of investors lost their shirts because of the subprime mortgage scam. The ones responsible got a bailout and carry on regardless. Surely this is unfair.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    20Cent wrote: »
    3. No public money for private lobbying. A company that receives a public bailout should not be allowed to use the taxpayer's own money to lobby against him. You can either suck on the public teat or influence the next presidential race, but you can't do both. Butt out for once and let the people choose the next president and Congress.
    Following this line of thought, would you propose to prevent public sector workers from voting? Considering they use the taxpayer's money to organise through the unions which then exert considerable political pressure; much like corporations lobbying the government with bailout funds, right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Valmont wrote: »
    Following this line of thought, would you propose to prevent public sector workers from voting? Considering they use the taxpayer's money to organise through the unions which then exert considerable political pressure; much like corporations lobbying the government with bailout funds, right?

    Steps:
    1: Search through post to find something vaguely controversial
    2: Make a wild inference from it even if it is clearly not what is being said
    3: Ignore any other points made

    I'm on to ye libertarians!!


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think the point is that people are picking vague or controversial parts of your ideology, but rather the fact that the ideology itself is absolute muck and can't stand up to even the most basic of logical interrogation.

    You still haven't answered me on the situation regarding the severe drop in footfall cause by ODS, and its detrimental effect on local businesses. Am I to gather that they and their opinions simply do not count? So much for equality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I don't think the point is that people are picking vague or controversial parts of your ideology, but rather the fact that the ideology itself is absolute muck and can't stand up to even the most basic of logical interrogation.
    Though I have some sympathies I wouldn't identify myself as libertarian.
    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    You still haven't answered me on the situation regarding the severe drop in footfall cause by ODS, and its detrimental effect on local businesses. Am I to gather that they and their opinions simply do not count? So much for equality.

    I don't base my opinions of worldwide movements on badly researched single news stories do you?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    20Cent wrote: »
    Though I have some sympathies I wouldn't identify myself as libertarian.


    I don't base my opinions of worldwide movements on badly researched single news stories do you?



    ....You've lost me. What?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    I don't think the point is that people are picking vague or controversial parts of your ideology, but rather the fact that the ideology itself is absolute muck and can't stand up to even the most basic of logical interrogation.

    go on so, show us where it falls to your logical interrogation, because i and everyone else must be missing something ...


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    davoxx wrote: »
    go on so, show us where it falls to your logical interrogation, because i and everyone else must be missing something ...

    No, everyone else gets it too. Hence why you have no support.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    This is why libertarianism is a defunct ideology. You need to have institutions in place to prevent harm. Otherwise it's too late.

    Look at the world. ANYWHERE that corporate regulation and accountability is weak OR where government is corrupted by corporate influence. People suffer and come to harm. That is the reality that libertarians seem utterly blind to and for the life of me I cannot understand why.

    People with power continually infringe on the lives of those with less power than them. That's why we had revolution, that's why we invented democracy. So that the many could not be oppressed by the few elite.

    The more I discuss this the more I'm convinced that libertarians want to dismantle democracy, though I don't think they even realise this is what they are truly advocating for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    20Cent wrote: »
    Steps:
    1: Search through post to find something vaguely controversial
    2: Make a wild inference from it even if it is clearly not what is being said
    3: Ignore any other points made

    I'm on to ye libertarians!!
    You implied that taking public money and simultaneously exerting a political influence is a bad thing. I'm assuming you were referring to the conflict of interests inherent in bailed out institutions lobbying the American government.

    I believe this principle you have outlined is applicable to other areas such the conflict of interest involved in civil servants being able to vote and organise themselves into a powerful lobby.

    Do you disagree with that analogy? Why is it different?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Memnoch wrote: »
    OR where government is corrupted by corporate influence.
    I've noticed this meme (to use the Occupy parlance;)) of late; I think 20Cent has mentioned it too.

    How do you know it isn't the state corrupting the corporations? Please explain why you believe the corruption to flow in one direction only.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Memnoch wrote: »
    The more I discuss this the more I'm convinced that libertarians want to dismantle democracy, though I don't think they even realise this is what they are truly advocating for.
    Throw its current form in the bin - mob rule is one thing libertarians are explicitly against. We know it, too.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭davoxx


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    No, everyone else gets it too. Hence why you have no support.
    so i guess it doesn't fall to your logical interrogation nonsense ...


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