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Irish soldiers in WW1

24

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  • Registered Users Posts: 31 jameswburke


    here is his page from irelands Memorial Records.

    here is a link to his CWGC page in case you havent seen it http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1592737

    Hi. Thanks for that - I saw they had him down as Canadian. The link below has his attestation papers (joining up papers) where he gives his birthplace as Kilkenny, Ireland. I suppose everyone loves a winner. I've even seen him on an Ulster website, listed as being born in Belfast!

    http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/virtualmem/photos/1592737


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭enfield


    There were 745 men and women from Kilkenny killed in ww1.
    Cheers.
    Tom.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 jameswburke


    enfield wrote: »
    There were 745 men and women from Kilkenny killed in ww1.
    Cheers.
    Tom.


    Hi Tom. Where did you see that figure? Do you have details?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭enfield


    It is from The War Dead Databases Project;

    The War Dead Databases Project.
    museumtom@gmail.com
    The aim of the project is to formulate and collect any book or database that lists Irish casualties who died as a result of war.
    The purpose of this is to finally put a correct figure on the Irishmen and Irishwomen that died in the Great War and to assemble them according to their county.

    The Irish Government have been approached in a bid to update and amend Irelands Memorial Records, to date, they are unwilling to do so. The President of Ireland was asked if she could or would help. She did not reply. A letter was written to Queen Elizabeth as these were soldiers of the English King. She replied that it was not the policy of British Government to meddle in the affairs of a foreign State. Mr Enda Kenny and five other present Ministers were asked to help, they did not reply.
    Let it be known ;-
    WE WILL REMEMBER THEM!


    The Kilkenny database was completed last year and will be added to the main Roll of Honour. This Roll of Honour will not be complete until there is one complete alphabetical list of the Irish WW1 casulaties which will include all mention of military personnel in regional and rural newspapers of the period. The project is ongoing and the powers that be do not wish to know.
    The sources for the Kilkenny casualties are;
    Sources; The Commonwealth War Graves Commission, Soldiers Died in the Great War. Soldiers of the Great War. The New Library and Archives Canada. The National Archives of Australia. Nominal Rolls of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force. De Ruvignys Roll of Honour, The War Graves of the British Empire, Commonwealth War Graves Commission registers for the Irish Free State, Irelands Memorial Records. The Tipperary War Dead, The Wexford War Dead, The Wicklow War Dead, The Offaly War Dead, The Waterford War Dead, The Kerry war Dead, University of St Andrews Roll of Honour, Souvenir of the Great Naval Battle, Call to Arms, Montreal’s Roll of Honour, Croydon and the Great War, Artists Rifles Roll of Honour, Princes Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, University of Edinburgh Roll of Honour, 1914-1919, Sligo 1914-1921, Irish at the Front, New Zealand Roll of Honour, Irish on the Somme, Tenth Irish Division in Gallipoli, The National Roll of the Great War, London, Blackrock College Roll of Honour, South Irish Horse Casualties, The First Five Hundred, Great War Memorial in St Canice’s Cathedral, Kilkenny. WW1 Irish Soldiers; Their Final Testament, Roll of the sons and daughters of the Anglican Church, The Roll of Honour, Five months on a German Raider, The Munster Express, RGA Enlistments—Ireland, WW1 Irish Soldiers wills, Record of service of solicitors and articled clerks with His Majesty's forces, 1914-1919, Irish Submariners (Barrie Downer), Lijssenthoek Cemetery Project, Our Heroes, Wigs and Guns, Soldiers of the Great War (USA), The Distinguished Service Order, Bond of Sacrifice, King’s County Chronicle, Public Records Office, the West Australian, The London Gazette, Flight, The Tipperary Star, The Kilkenny Journal, The Kilkenny People, 1901 and 1911 Census, The Carlow Sentinel, The Leinster Express, The Waterford News, “The Argus” (Melbourne), “The Poverty Bay Herald”, Harrow Memorials, volume 1; Harrow School Register, 1845-1925; Harrovian War Supplement, “The Times”, The Nationalist and Leinster Times, The Enniscorthy Guardian, The Clare Journal.
    The references above is not a complete list of available works. The 'database bank' is steadily growing and completed counties are constantly being updated as new casualties are found or brought 'In from the Cold'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 jameswburke


    enfield wrote: »
    It is from The War Dead Databases Project;

    The War Dead Databases Project.
    museumtom@gmail.com
    The aim of the project is to formulate and collect any book or database that lists Irish casualties who died as a result of war.
    The purpose of this is to finally put a correct figure on the Irishmen and Irishwomen that died in the Great War and to assemble them according to their county.

    The Irish Government have been approached in a bid to update and amend Irelands Memorial Records, to date, they are unwilling to do so. The President of Ireland was asked if she could or would help. She did not reply. A letter was written to Queen Elizabeth as these were soldiers of the English King. She replied that it was not the policy of British Government to meddle in the affairs of a foreign State. Mr Enda Kenny and five other present Ministers were asked to help, they did not reply.
    Let it be known ;-
    WE WILL REMEMBER THEM!


    The Kilkenny database was completed last year and will be added to the main Roll of Honour. This Roll of Honour will not be complete until there is one complete alphabetical list of the Irish WW1 casulaties which will include all mention of military personnel in regional and rural newspapers of the period. The project is ongoing and the powers that be do not wish to know.
    The sources for the Kilkenny casualties are;
    Sources; The Commonwealth War Graves Commission, Soldiers Died in the Great War. Soldiers of the Great War. The New Library and Archives Canada. The National Archives of Australia. Nominal Rolls of the New Zealand Expeditionary Force. De Ruvignys Roll of Honour, The War Graves of the British Empire, Commonwealth War Graves Commission registers for the Irish Free State, Irelands Memorial Records. The Tipperary War Dead, The Wexford War Dead, The Wicklow War Dead, The Offaly War Dead, The Waterford War Dead, The Kerry war Dead, University of St Andrews Roll of Honour, Souvenir of the Great Naval Battle, Call to Arms, Montreal’s Roll of Honour, Croydon and the Great War, Artists Rifles Roll of Honour, Princes Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, University of Edinburgh Roll of Honour, 1914-1919, Sligo 1914-1921, Irish at the Front, New Zealand Roll of Honour, Irish on the Somme, Tenth Irish Division in Gallipoli, The National Roll of the Great War, London, Blackrock College Roll of Honour, South Irish Horse Casualties, The First Five Hundred, Great War Memorial in St Canice’s Cathedral, Kilkenny. WW1 Irish Soldiers; Their Final Testament, Roll of the sons and daughters of the Anglican Church, The Roll of Honour, Five months on a German Raider, The Munster Express, RGA Enlistments—Ireland, WW1 Irish Soldiers wills, Record of service of solicitors and articled clerks with His Majesty's forces, 1914-1919, Irish Submariners (Barrie Downer), Lijssenthoek Cemetery Project, Our Heroes, Wigs and Guns, Soldiers of the Great War (USA), The Distinguished Service Order, Bond of Sacrifice, King’s County Chronicle, Public Records Office, the West Australian, The London Gazette, Flight, The Tipperary Star, The Kilkenny Journal, The Kilkenny People, 1901 and 1911 Census, The Carlow Sentinel, The Leinster Express, The Waterford News, “The Argus” (Melbourne), “The Poverty Bay Herald”, Harrow Memorials, volume 1; Harrow School Register, 1845-1925; Harrovian War Supplement, “The Times”, The Nationalist and Leinster Times, The Enniscorthy Guardian, The Clare Journal.

    Thanks Tom, that's a great project. The official Irish non-cooperation doesn't surprise me. We are working on a list compiled by Pte Jim O'Keeffe at KK barracks and research done by historian John Kirwan who is to publish a book on the subject. I look forward to seeing the entire list some day.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    I think you should also contact each of the Presidential candidates today and ask for a response on this question, if elected would they support the initiative ? If so, how ?

    I would make it clear to each candidate's campaign/press office that you have also contacted each of the other candidates and intend to distribute and publish the response of each one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 clumhoho


    Well lads,
    A mate of mine actually wrote a book about this very topic and i would definitely recommend it. A great read. He also won the Argosy Non-Fiction Book of the Year award at last years Irish Book Awards. Some very interesting stories about Irish soldiers who served in WWI.
    He is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this stuff so look him up if you get the chance.
    The book in 'A coward if I return, A hero if I fall' by Neil Richardson


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭enfield


    ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭enfield


    Irelands Memorial Records
    This was formulated in the 1920’s and accepted all soldiers in an Irish regiment as being an Irishman, which is a fatal error. This has led to the famous figure of 49,600 quoted as the ‘official’ number of Irishmen and Irishwomen died during the Great War. In ‘The Tipperary War Dead’ which lists the total number from that county at 1,460, Irelands Memorial Records only has 950. Irelands Memorial Records is an obsolete, incomplete, corrupt, database with many double entries and outright errors. It does not give burial locations. This database sometimes has conflicting data than that found in The Commonwealth War Graves Commission and Soldiers Died in the Great War.
    So how many Irish men and women died in the Great War? We really do not know and will not know until this project is completed and we finally have one single alphabetical list of these poor forgotten souls.
    We will remember.
    Cheers.
    Tom.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    Hi. Thanks for that - I saw they had him down as Canadian. The link below has his attestation papers (joining up papers) where he gives his birthplace as Kilkenny, Ireland. I suppose everyone loves a winner. I've even seen him on an Ulster website, listed as being born in Belfast!

    http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/collections/virtualmem/photos/1592737


    his birth registration is Kilkenny

    https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MFY9-8VF/p1


    the older sisters birth was registered in Belfast

    https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MFTF-TW9/p1

    though Kilkenny was entered on some documents as place of birth.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 31 jameswburke


    his birth registration is Kilkenny

    https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MFY9-8VF/p1


    the older sisters birth was registered in Belfast

    https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.2/MFTF-TW9/p1

    though Kilkenny was entered on some documents as place of birth.


    Excellent. That settles it once & for all. Now to find his address in Kilkenny.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭enfield


    HALL, FREDERICK WILLIAM. Rank: Company Sergeant Major. Regiment or Service: Canadian Infantry (Manitoba Regiment). Unit; 8th Battalion. Date of Death:25-April-1915. Age at Death, 28. Service No:1539. Killed in Action.
    Supplementary information; Son of Mary Hall, of 43, Union Rd. , Leytonstone, London, and the late Bmdr. F. Hall.
    The London Gazette, No. 29202. Dated 23rd June;-
    "On 24th April, 1915, in the neighbourhood of Ypres, when a wounded man who was lying some 15 yards from the trench called for help, Company Serjeant-Major Hall endeavoured to reach him in the face of a very heavy enfilade fire which was being poured in by the enemy. The first attempt failed, and a non-commissioned officer and private soldier who were attempting to give assistance were both wounded. Company Serjeant-Major Hall then made a second most gallant attempt, and was in the act of lifting up the wounded man to bring him in when he fell mortally wounded in the head. "
    Next of kin listed as (mother), Mrs M Hall, 260 Young Street, Winnipeg.
    Place of birth, Kilkenny, Ireland. Date of birth, 21-February-1885. Occupation on enlistment, Clerk. Belonged to the 106th Light Infantry prior to enlistment and previous military experience of 12 years, four months with the 1st Cameronians.
    Place and date of enlistment, Valcartier, 26-September-1914. Address on enlistment,. Height, 5 feet, 8 inches. Complexion, ruddy. Eyes, brown. Hair, auburn.
    Grave or Memorial Reference: Has no known grave but is commemorated on Panel 24 - 26 - 28 – 30 on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial in Belgium.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 jameswburke


    enfield wrote: »
    HALL, FREDERICK WILLIAM. Rank: Company Sergeant Major. Regiment or Service: Canadian Infantry (Manitoba Regiment). Unit; 8th Battalion. Date of Death:25-April-1915. Age at Death, 28. Service No:1539. Killed in Action.
    Supplementary information; Son of Mary Hall, of 43, Union Rd. , Leytonstone, London, and the late Bmdr. F. Hall.
    The London Gazette, No. 29202. Dated 23rd June;-
    "On 24th April, 1915, in the neighbourhood of Ypres, when a wounded man who was lying some 15 yards from the trench called for help, Company Serjeant-Major Hall endeavoured to reach him in the face of a very heavy enfilade fire which was being poured in by the enemy. The first attempt failed, and a non-commissioned officer and private soldier who were attempting to give assistance were both wounded. Company Serjeant-Major Hall then made a second most gallant attempt, and was in the act of lifting up the wounded man to bring him in when he fell mortally wounded in the head. "
    Next of kin listed as (mother), Mrs M Hall, 260 Young Street, Winnipeg.
    Place of birth, Kilkenny, Ireland. Date of birth, 21-February-1885. Occupation on enlistment, Clerk. Belonged to the 106th Light Infantry prior to enlistment and previous military experience of 12 years, four months with the 1st Cameronians.
    Place and date of enlistment, Valcartier, 26-September-1914. Address on enlistment,. Height, 5 feet, 8 inches. Complexion, ruddy. Eyes, brown. Hair, auburn.
    Grave or Memorial Reference: Has no known grave but is commemorated on Panel 24 - 26 - 28 – 30 on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial in Belgium.

    Blimey - that's comprehensive. Thanks very much for all that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭enfield


    Thats from the Kilkenny database.
    Regards
    Tom.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 jameswburke


    enfield wrote: »
    Thats from the Kilkenny database.
    Regards
    Tom.

    Thanks Tom. Your'e doing a great job.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    in the 1920 US CEnsus, the mother, 3 brothers and eldest sister are living in Manhattan. The mother now puts her place of birth as Ireland.

    The brother Percy puts his occupation as a "Homesteader in Canada".

    All have marked 1917 as the year of immigration. Presumably from Canada.

    Henry appears to have served with the Canadian Army (260 Young St, Winnipeg being the same address as on Frederick's attestation paper; enlisted 2 days after Frederick)

    http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/cef/001042-119.01-e.php?&id_nbr=435498&interval=20&&PHPSESSID=32vnuppluco4le4ebuttpl1np3

    In 1921, the sister Augusta and the mother pass thru Ellis Island on the way to see "Mr Hall" of 115 Kennedy St, Winnipeg. The mother is back to born Canterbury, England. The family appear to do a lot of to and fro between the UK and North America.


    The nominal roll of the 8th Battalion is online with Colour Sgt Hall in C Company, page 11

    http://ia600406.us.archive.org/28/items/CEF_8thBattalion_1915/CEF_8thBattalion_1915.pdf




    http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/thestar/access/508850991.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Nov+06%2C+1998&author=&pub=The+Spectator&desc=Search+for+war+hero+aided+by+city+man%3A+Awarded+Victoria+Cross+in+1917&pqatl=google



    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MyYBAAAAIBAJ&sjid=aigDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3633,6001496&dq=frederick-william-hall&hl=en

    a very interesting 1918 article which lists Belfast as place of birth

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=wv5SAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sDcNAAAAIBAJ&pg=6139,3827268&dq=frederick-william-hall&hl=en


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭jos28


    Does anyone know if the records from the recruiting offices are available. I always thought that my Grandad (from Tralee) ran away to England in 1913and ended up as a sapper in the Royal Engineers. I am reading Neil Richardson's 'A coward if I return, A hero if I fall, Stories of Irishmen in World War 1' and one of the stories concerns a Michael Ahern from Tralee who enlisted as a sapper in the Royal Engineers in 1912 and was stationed at the Curragh until war broke out. I would love to find out where my Grandad enlisted and if he spent time at the Curragh before being shipped out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    records from recruiting offices don't exist unfortunately but some service/pension records for WW1 soldiers do. There is generally more info available on a soldier who died than one who survived.

    Michael Ahern, for example, has a pension record that shows he enlisted in Tralee on the 4th January 1912. He was a 20year old cooper at the time of his enlistment in the RE. Assigned the number 22380. Served till 1920. Wounded by gas. Later number 1843302. He served in the UK, France and India. His record contains details of brothers, sisters, wife and son.

    For most there are no records but if they served abroad there should be a mdeal roll entry.

    Pop his name on here or the WW1 forum and we'll see what's available.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭jos28


    Thanks a million. Spot on there Jimmy,according to the book Michael left his job as a cooper in Dingle to enlist. AFAIK my Grandad signed up with his brother. They were Bartholomew and William Glover.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    I can see 1 medal card for a Bartholomew Glover, Sapper, Royal Engineers, number 25418. Entered France 12/6/1915. Awarded 1915 Star, Victory Medal and British War Medal. Discharged but no date given. Not seeing anything else.

    I think you already have this info based on a Rootschat thread and a posting in the WW1 forum.

    There are a load of cards for William Glover. Nothing to show which one might have been from Tralee. There are 16 with Royal Engineer medal cards; if they'd joined together then their numbers would be close but the nearest is 28335 who was from Staffordshire and died of wounds. Any medals in the family belonging to William?

    The photo of William on the WW1 forum shows him wearing a Silver War Badge rather than a Royal Engineers badge

    https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/49848/97657.jpg

    This photo taken by Thomas Forrest and Sons who operated out of a studio (Cambrian Studios) at 14 Market St, Pontypridd, Glamorgan, from 1868 through to 1926.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭jos28


    Thanks Johnny, apologies for duplicating posts but I suppose I am anxious to find any scraps of information about my Grandad. He is the one person in family tree that I would love to have met. My Dad has passed on too and although we often spoke about his Dad, I am annoyed that I didn't get more information out of him.
    I have no idea where William's medal are. He spent the remainder of his life in Dagenham working for Ford. I don't know if he came home for any length of time after the war. My Grandad went back to Tralee but could not stay there because he married a woman who was in Cumann na mBán. Her family were none too happy so my Grandparents moved to Dublin.
    Just wondering about William's photo and what he was doing in Wales ? Might have been taken on the way to or from Holyhead ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    no prob re multiple posts - IMO it's one of the best ways to get info as different people look at the issue at different times and bring different data sources etc.

    Pontypridd is South Wales and more on the route to Fishguard/Swansea rather than Holyhead. Even then, it's not a stop you would necessarily think about if doing London to Fishguard/Swansea so possibly some other reason he was there for the photo.

    Have you got the baptism records for Bartholomew, William and their sister from the irishgenealogy.ie website?

    http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/df201e0494318

    Ford seems to be celebrating it's history at the moment and it might be worth contacting them to see if they have any employment records that they would release.

    http://www.ford.co.uk/AboutFord/News/CompanyNews/Image-of-the-week-39

    I've delved a bit more into the service records on Ancestry but still not finding anything to identify your William Glover.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭jos28


    Thanks again Johnny,
    I have the details for William, Bart and Julia, thanks.
    Must have been a woman that brought William to Wales :)
    Thanks for the link to Ford, I will definitely drop them an email.
    Cheers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    I would be pleased if the experts here could throw some light on why a relative of mine, a Corkman living in England, would join a Canadian Regiment during WWI. Why not the Munster Fusileers or any of the other Irish regiments?
    He was Patrick Kelly, service medal 24955, who joined the 13th Bn., Canadian Infantry (Quebec Regt.). He died on Saturday, 24th April 1915. I have bits of family lore, one that he was gassed, which, coupled with his date of death fits the Second Battle of Ypres in April 1915, when the German Army used chlorine gas for the first time and the Canadians held their line at great cost.

    Thanks,
    P.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Enfield, that was most kind of you. Complete surprise that he had prior service in the Irish Guards and that he enlisted in Canada! He had a reputation in the family as being 'a bit wild' and left home very young. (His family was not the type to have gone in for tatoos!:D )
    Many thanks,
    P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Just a general question

    Was it normal for British officer to be court martialed when on returning from a POW CAMP?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭johnny_doyle


    it was normal for British officers released from captivity to write a report giving details of their capture for consideration "of exoneration for responsibility of capture".

    An officers medal card might contain text such as "exonerated Officer's list" giving an indication that he spent time as a PoW and not to blame for his capture.

    The UK National Archives now has some prisoner of war interview records available for search/download

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=20&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1


    Some stats on court martials during and after WW1 can be found here

    http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/all.htm


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    it was normal for British officers released from captivity to write a report giving details of their capture for consideration "of exoneration for responsibility of capture".

    An officers medal card might contain text such as "exonerated Officer's list" giving an indication that he spent time as a PoW and not to blame for his capture.

    The UK National Archives now has some prisoner of war interview records available for search/download

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=20&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1


    Some stats on court martials during and after WW1 can be found here

    http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/all.htm

    thanks


    From what I remember of the documents this was an offical court martial , must dig out his service records


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  • Registered Users Posts: 31 jameswburke


    Appeal for information from Co. Kilkenny, Ireland

    Kilkenny Photographic Society have assembled a touring exhibition on the theme of Kilkenny and the Great War 1914-18. We have a list of 467 men known to have been killed in the war and our exhibition features some of them, along with family photos kindly shown to us by living descendants. We also have a YouTube movie of the list, set to music of the time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH4fe8JOlRU

    We would like any families willing to participate in our exhibition (Kilkenny only) to contact us. The exhibition will be shown in November 2011 at the County Buildings, John Street. Details can be left there too.

    Finally, we have discovered a VC winner, Frederick W Hall, who emigrated to Canada and joined up there. He was killed at Ypres in 1915 whilst trying to rescue a wounded colleague. For this he received a VC. There is info on the Canadian Veteran's website but we would like to trace his birthplace in Co Kilkenny so any help would be greatly appreciated. James Burke Mob: 086 8197455

    I have put together what we know so far about FW Hall VC into a YouTube video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRIENqeJ1i4


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