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The Dail no longer has power

  • 12-12-2011 5:07am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭


    It has struck me over the last week that tha Dail is now as relevant as the Seanad was 5 years ago.

    I listened to Lucinda Creighton trying to explain things poorly as she eh'd and ah'd about us pauping in Europe and she tried to assimilate the unchartered predicament Europe is now in.

    We now need about 30% of the TDs we have. They will be reps for us in Europe, the rest of those needed can fulfill ministerial positions.

    TDs with their hard got Arts degrees bleat about things they have feck all influence over now put there on pothole and medical card mandates.

    Ta na politict nua ag teacht.....


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭daithimacgroin


    the country needs to demand a referendum on radical constitutional change


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    What in the constitution needs to change do you think?


  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭daithimacgroin


    pretty much all of it

    We've ran this country into the ground for the last 90 years


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Parish pump politics needs to be erradicated. I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the constitution, but it seems to be outdated and the stumbling block for a lot decisions for us. 1937 is a long way from 2011.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    pretty much all of it

    We've ran this country into the ground for the last 90 years
    femur61 wrote: »
    Parish pump politics needs to be erradicated. I am not familiar with the ins and outs of the constitution, but it seems to be outdated and the stumbling block for a lot decisions for us. 1937 is a long way from 2011.

    I dont totally disagree that some sort of constitutional review needs to take place, but how can anyone suggest that the whole thing needs to be rewritten within making any reference to specifics? I'd also be interested to know what you think holds us back as a nation or what parts are outdated?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭daithimacgroin


    well, the OP meant this to be about the Dail,
    and i do think there is no need for a Dail at all.

    as for constitutional reform, i'd like to see a move towards direct democracy,

    Teletext Democracy is what I call it.

    No representatives. The decisions and votes that would usually be put to the dail or executive should be put directly to the people.

    We've had the technology for years, and education levels are high enough

    so why keep using this antiquated imperfect corrupt form of indirect democracy?

    It's not like the people in the Dail are anymore knowledgeable or wise than the ordinary man in the street.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    FFS, we can't even get the Government to live up to it's commitment to abolish Quangoes. Good luck with getting them to get rid of their buddies in the Dáil.


  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭daithimacgroin


    if more people got behind these guys then?

    http://www.2nd-republic.ie/


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    For me, there is too much power concentrated in the Cabinet/Executive and the 140 or so TDs that are not part of that inner circle are totally sidelined because of the whip system.

    As far as I know there's no mention in the consitution of the whip system and I would like to see legislation along the lines of what the technical group proposed earlier in the year.

    FG are far too right-wing to support this type of reform though.

    http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/from-the-chamber/motion-dail-reform/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    The issue is how we change our own Bunreacht.
    The US constitution is a lot older than ours. It has fewer changes and is much more revered by their public society. Instead of carefully crafting relevant legislation to met current events, the State uses a quick fix of altering the constitution which robs it of its coherent whole philosophy and it dissolves into a patchwork of various dos/don'ts - leaving case law derived from it in shreds.
    The next change to make to the constitution should be making it more difficult to change and reduce the power of politicians to do so.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭bedrock#1


    well, the OP meant this to be about the Dail,
    and i do think there is no need for a Dail at all.

    as for constitutional reform, i'd like to see a move towards direct democracy,

    Teletext Democracy is what I call it.

    No representatives. The decisions and votes that would usually be put to the dail or executive should be put directly to the people.

    We've had the technology for years, and education levels are high enough

    so why keep using this antiquated imperfect corrupt form of indirect democracy?

    It's not like the people in the Dail are anymore knowledgeable or wise than the ordinary man in the street.

    I think a form of democracy where the public are involved in the decision making process is what we should strive for, however it is a lot more complex than what you are suggesting. Direct democracy is a nice idea but it doesn't tackle the very different views people hold and the fact that a lot of collective decision making descends into bickering.

    If we are to have a truly citizen oriented democracy the first thing we need to do is to comprehensively reform the education system. One of the main problems I see with transitioning to this type of democracy is that-

    A) We collectively lack the required knowledge of the political system (electoral systems, institutional design etc.) -

    B) We lack the skills to be able to make deliberation possible

    C) Our current political system is too centralized to make collective decision making efficient and effective

    D) This would require constitutional overhaul in terms of who is allowed make legislation, the powers of the dail, the electoral system, the fact that our constitution sets out the rules of a representative democracy etc.

    It is a massive undertaking to change or democracy. Personally I would favour a deliberative form of democracy with direct democracy coming in the form of referendum voting procedures for any decisions made.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    Personally I view the Dáil as being populated by a large majority of gormless, inept, intellectually impaired morons. So regardless of the sovereignty issue and how much power they actually have. They’re not capable of doing much with it anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭GSF


    the country needs to demand a referendum on radical constitutional change
    Its on its way in March - well maybe, when the lawyers get back from their Christmas break.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,645 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    well, the OP meant this to be about the Dail,
    and i do think there is no need for a Dail at all.

    as for constitutional reform, i'd like to see a move towards direct democracy,

    Teletext Democracy is what I call it.

    No representatives. The decisions and votes that would usually be put to the dail or executive should be put directly to the people.
    Right, and who produces the legislation to be put to the people? Does any loud mouth with a vested interest get to bring legislation before the people? Most people do not have the time to educate themselves on all the various issues which would be put in front of them and pretty soon the number of people participating plummet as they get sick of being asked to vote on issue the do not concern them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    GSF wrote: »
    Its on its way in March - well maybe, when the lawyers get back from their Christmas break.

    We'll be very lucky if the Convention's terms of reference include anything that will allow real political or rights reform. It'll be small stuff like the changing the term of the president or maybe reducing the number of TDs a very small amount, and the Senate abolition.

    It'll then look at some good ideas like gay marriage and it won't go anywhere near abortion. But I really think it needs a complete overhaul with a number of proposals in sections that allow people to vote on bits they like and dislike in order to compile a complete Constitution.

    I'd like to see the president become a fully fledged executive position with an appointed government. The legislature elected from non-geographical constituencies in at least one house.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    What in the constitution needs to change do you think?
    You should read the Irish Constitution to be filmise yourself on this.
    http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/attached_files/Pdf%20files/Constitution%20of%20Ireland.pdf
    Article 16
    2. 2° The number of members shall from time to time be fixed by law, but the total number of members of Dáil Éireann shall not be fixed at less than one member for each thirty thousand of the population, or at more than one member for each twenty thousand of the population.
    Right now there needs to be a TD for every 20,000/30,000 of the population.
    This needs to be change to % of population so less revisions needs to be made in future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    limklad wrote: »
    You should read the Irish Constitution to be filmise yourself on this.
    What?
    Right now there needs to be a TD for every 20,000/30,000 of the population.
    This needs to be change to % of population so less revisions needs to be made in future.
    That's it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    What?


    That's it?

    Well there is also these bits which seem controversial partly because of the big sign above them saying controversy :P

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland#Issues_of_controversy


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,460 ✭✭✭Slideshowbob


    Constitution talk is a diversion from the orginal topic IMHO

    Keep it simple guys!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,701 ✭✭✭Offy


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    I dont totally disagree that some sort of constitutional review needs to take place, but how can anyone suggest that the whole thing needs to be rewritten within making any reference to specifics? I'd also be interested to know what you think holds us back as a nation or what parts are outdated?

    I think what holds us back is the lack of accountability, politicians, medical professionals, legal professionals, etc. People should be held accountable and at present they are not.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭mlumley


    And whom may I ask would write up this new constitution, Ah let me think, ,,,,,,,yes the crap crowd we now have with their snouts in the troth:eek:. They'd only make it better for themselves to get what they want and sideline the people. They would sell us down the river faster than a speed boat for their own greedy selves. Not broken, dont fix it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭daithimacgroin


    get an independent body from the united states to do a few alternatives and then debate the pros and cons...

    not broken?
    things are fairly f**kin brokin mate


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    get an independent body from the united states to do a few alternatives and then debate the pros and cons...

    not broken?
    things are fairly f**kin brokin mate
    The Constitution isn't broken. Certainly there are areas which need refreshing, but a complete re-write is wholly unnecessary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    The Dail no longer has power‏
    It has struck me over the last week that tha Dail is now as relevant as the Seanad was 5 years ago.


    Exactly, and this is precisely why Mr Cameron & the Euro skeptic wing of the Tory party in Westminster have their collective knickers in such a twist. Hand over too much power to Brussels at your peril, and you will be owned, financed & governed by European bureaucrats, while Dublin & London will become increasingly irrelevant as European centralised control takes over :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,662 ✭✭✭RMD


    The constitution isn't at fault here. It's that we have a shower of fools running the country, I can't count on one hand how many politicians in this country I deem worthy of running.

    What we need is better politicians, problem is that's something that can't just be created. You need people who want to be politicians, competent people at that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,124 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Reading thread and chuckling.

    It sounds to me based on the responses here that what you want isn't constitutional reform, you just want the people that are in, out. It would be like saying that Congress is broken because in the current session the Senate has the votes to overturn any action taken by the congress, or some such shyte. But really that's the fupping point.

    Theres plenty of frustration that leaders are being too slow to act but you think a constitutional reform could be performed any faster? Hah.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    The Daíl in it's present guise is wasteful and inefficient though unsurprising. Constituents look to their TDs for any minor issues that arise in their area though this should really be a process reserved for Local Government. I think that reducing the number of constituencies (thus making them larger) to something more like the European constituencies would be a favourable alternative. This would allow TDs to divert their attention to national issues, where they're supposed to be.

    This would also allow a reduction in the number of TDs. Without doubt we have far too many at present, most of which who have little or no influence. Had a technical group not been formed some of our most promising independent representatives would have little or no speaking time.

    The Seanad at present is a waste. It's membership is undemocratic and is always going to follow the will of the present Government, thus rendering it useless. A reformed Seanad or an expanded Presidential executive branch would be welcomed.

    In terms of the Constitution, I don't feel it simply has to be ripped up and replaced. There are undoubtedly issues with it at present, both because of age and the sheer number of alterations that have been made since its inception.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Offy wrote: »
    I think what holds us back is the lack of accountability, politicians, medical professionals, legal professionals, etc. People should be held accountable and at present they are not.

    One of the problems with the Irish system is that the government - the Cabinet - is not accountable to the Dáil, which it is supposed to be. The non-Constitutional Whip system and our Constitutional requirement that Ministers should be elected constituency representatives means that the Cabinet is effectively just appointed by the party bosses of the coalition parties.

    That's what leads to ludicrous situations where incompetent Ministers who make major blunders but who are important within the party are retained - at best they're moved to another Ministry - while potentially competent people aren't even considered.

    Seriously, a system which makes Mary Coughlan a Minister in the first place is not fit for purpose. One that then retains her is clearly badly broken.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    One of the problems with the Irish system is that the government - the Cabinet - is not accountable to the Dáil, which it is supposed to be. The non-Constitutional Whip system and our Constitutional requirement that Ministers should be elected constituency representatives means that the Cabinet is effectively just appointed by the party bosses of the coalition parties.

    That's what leads to ludicrous situations where incompetent Ministers who make major blunders but who are important within the party are retained - at best they're moved to another Ministry - while potentially competent people aren't even considered.

    Seriously, a system which makes Mary Coughlan a Minister in the first place is not fit for purpose. One that then retains her is clearly badly broken.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw
    We also need a Seanad with actual powers to "check and balance" the Dáil.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 193 ✭✭daithimacgroin


    result - the executive are all powerful


    Surely following that logic, Ireland is basically a non-democratic banana republic controlled by a posse of self-interested individuals


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