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Should Ireland welcome gentically modified food?

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Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Surely it should be dependent on the modification???

    There's a big difference between a modification to allow crops to withstand ridiculous unnecessary levels of pesticides and herbicides, compared to something like golden rice.

    There are pros and cons to genetic modification. The cons are not considerable enough to make me think GM should be banned, but the pros are very often just not worth it. If the pros reflect a need, then I say go for GM, but if the pros reflect greed, then those crops should not be grown outside. Too risky to grow them without a good reason.

    With regards to the mention of no cross pollination, in many plants seeds can be produced without cross pollination. These seeds can then be dispersed outside the area of farming and enter the outside population. Especially if these plants have been grown to resist herbicides, we'll have a big problem with a potentially invasive species.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Yakult wrote: »
    “Mistakes are common – they have caused exceedingly complex problems all over the world.”

    Anyone know wtf he is talking about when he says that? Or is it scare-mongering?


    I don't see the harm in this. Let them do the isolated research and see what they learn by it.

    There has been problems with gm crops but as we speak those problems are being ironed out. I think hes mostly referring to the potential of gm crops to cross breed with non gm crops. Most of it is scare mongering though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I think their actually testing the impact on the enviroment with larger scale trials.

    the big risk to all of this is cross breeding with native plants resulting in uncontrolled changes to the native plants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    We are well able to feed the worlds population and then some without GM crops if only we'd stop warring and cheating each other.

    Well I dont see war stopping anytime soon as its part of human nature.


    You think so ? How much do you actually know about genetics ?

    Not as much as a geneticist but I would have done a large amount of study on it.

    No, GM is a shotgun. The 'shotgun technique' has been one of the main techniques genetic engineering has used for decades. Crudely put it means you fire the new gene into a bunch of germ cells, grow em, and hope one of them has the trait you want. And doesn't have other traits you don't want. You may not know until donkeys years down the line what traits show up.

    That seems to be knock out mice your referring to where you knock out a gene and try to determine the effect that gene had on development ect. Modern genetics uses vectors in the form of plasmids and other methods to introduce new dna.


    It isn't. One of the great scientific scams of the last 20 years was that we understood genetics and could manipulate it in predictable ways. Absolutely rubbish. The stuff of science fiction - years away from that if its even possible. People don't seem to understand - we are still decoding the language of genetics - right now - we are like babies speaking their first quasi-words, we are years if not decades away from writing the eloquent prose that so many seem to think we are capable of already.

    Yes we are still decoding the genome but you can be sure that the genes being introduced to plants are fairly well understood. We have a much larger understanding of genetics than you think.
    The general understanding of genetics by the population, and I dare say businessmen and investors of the 80's and 90's, is rudimentary at best. The arrogance of some scientists is stellar. They actually labelled part of the genome as 'junk' DNA - because it didn't make sense to them they figured it did nothing and was junk. In last few years we know it does stuff, important stuff.

    Ill be the first to say that a lot of scientists are arrogant and there is a lot of dogma in science even to this day but there will always be people to question the hypothesis put forward by most scientists. I dont accept some of the current scientific thinking to this day. It wasnt fair to call it junk dna and today its largely referred to as non coding dna as it doesnt express a gene or translate to a protein. The businessmen or investors havent a clue I agree.
    Genetically modified crops outside of a lab represent nothing less than a massive, planetary, ecosystem wide, uncontrolled, completely unplanned, unscientific experiment carried out on a worldwide population, who not only did not give informed consent, but weren't even asked their permission or told it was happening until it was too late.
    Outside of your coperate concerns what are you afraid will happen?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    the big risk to all of this is cross breeding with native plants resulting in uncontrolled changes to the native plants.

    Cross breeding in general results in uncontrolled changes to native plants. Domestic crops are nothing like the wild type before man got to it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,230 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    skregs wrote: »
    Hurf.

    Rather than having a self-indulgent punt at derailing my reasoning, perhaps an intelligent rebuttal?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Johro wrote: »
    Selective breeding uses existing genes. Not 'new' genes. Also, selective breeding or hybridisation happens in the natural world, unlike introducing animal genes to plant genes.

    Natural doesnt always mean good and unnatural doesnt always mean bad. Vaccines are not natural yet they save millions of lives worldwide.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    steddyeddy wrote: »

    Not as much as a geneticist but I would have done a large amount of study on it.
    Not as much as you think. Read more.
    That seems to be knock out mice your referring to where you knock out a gene and try to determine the effect that gene had on development ect. Modern genetics uses vectors in the form of plasmids and other methods to introduce new dna.

    No its not knock out mice I'm referring to - its specifically plant genetic engineering techniques. More correctly called bioballistics. You basically stick your target gene onto a metal atom and fire it into the cell and hope for the best. Its the most used method for engineering plants. See what I said about you reading some more ? This is an example of stuff you apparently don't know about.

    Yes we are still decoding the genome but you can be sure that the genes being introduced to plants are fairly well understood. We have a much larger understanding of genetics than you think.
    I am sure we don't. We have a much poorer understanding of genetics than you think.
    Outside of your coperate concerns what are you afraid will happen?
    Difficult to predict. They have apparently already found plant transgenes in human enteric bacteria. That can't be good. We are using sophisticated shotguns to f**k with an ecosystem of immense complexity evolved over eons. Anyone who tells you what can or can not happen is talking through their hole - like I said, its 'a massive, planetary, ecosystem wide, uncontrolled, completely unplanned, unscientific experiment'


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    woodoo wrote: »
    Absolutely. We should be going for the organic market worldwide.

    Stay the hell away from GM foods.

    lol at Organic Market.

    Over priced foods with a highly limited option for export.

    Makes sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭Andy-Pandy


    There is no need for Ireland to grow GM products, are soil and growing conditions are just about perfect. There is a case for GM products in some country's, as there are drought/disease resistant variants of crops that will give a higher yield in places with poorer growing conditions. But in Ireland we simple just dont need them. In saying that, i wouldnt deny any developing country with a high population density the opportunity to be able to produce greater yields, therefore feeding more people.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Not as much as you think. Read more.

    No its not knock out mice I'm referring to - its specifically plant genetic engineering techniques. More correctly called bioballistics. You basically stick your target gene onto a metal atom and fire it into the cell and hope for the best. Its the most used method for engineering plants. See what I said about you reading some more ? This is an example of stuff you apparently don't know about.

    I didnt refer to it as that technique is being used less or less and viral or plasmid vector is infinitley more productive. Im well aware of the basics thanks. Bioballistics isnt only used in plant engineering by the way.

    I am sure we don't. We have a much poorer understanding of genetics than you think.

    Im not a typical arrogant scientist I am first to condemn those scientists who think they know everything and I have taken a lot of flack for it too.

    Difficult to predict. They have apparently already found plant transgenes in human enteric bacteria. That can't be good. We are using sophisticated shotguns to f**k with an ecosystem of immense complexity evolved over eons. Anyone who tells you what can or can not happen is talking through their hole - like I said, its 'a massive, planetary, ecosystem wide, uncontrolled, completely unplanned, unscientific experiment'

    We already share much of our genes with plants, viruses, rats, bats and bacteria. The importance of research is paramount here but judging by the poll most people dont even want to give research a chance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    We already share much of our genes with plants, viruses, rats, bats and bacteria. The importance of research is paramount here but judging by the poll most people dont even want to give research a chance.

    So therefore you agree that the long terms effects are completely unpredictable given that these genes can hop species unpredictably ?
    The poll is not about research - it is about releasing the stuff into the environment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Andy-Pandy wrote: »
    There is no need for Ireland to grow GM products, are soil and growing conditions are just about perfect. There is a case for GM products in some country's, as there are drought/disease resistant variants of crops that will give a higher yield in places with poorer growing conditions. But in Ireland we simple just dont need them. In saying that, i wouldnt deny any developing country with a high population density the opportunity to be able to produce greater yields, therefore feeding more people.

    We could increase our ability to export goods longer distances without fear of them going off and we could engineer crops that would be in season all year round. We are famous for our agricultural prowess and rightfully so but If we dont capiltalise on new technology we could fall behind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    So therefore you agree that the long terms effects are completely unpredictable given that these genes can hop species unpredictably ?
    The poll is not about research - it is about releasing the stuff into the environment.

    I added a option yes but more research is needed first.

    Yes as with ANY type of breeding genetic or otherwise the random recombination of alleles is largely unpredictable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 618 ✭✭✭Carter P Fly


    Practically everything we eat is from sources that have been genetically modified, even organic foods come from GM stock!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭Andy-Pandy


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    We could increase our ability to export goods longer distances without fear of them going off and we could engineer crops that would be in season all year round. We are famous for our agricultural prowess and rightfully so but If we dont capiltalise on new technology we could fall behind.

    Ireland exports are crops and food stuffs under the basis that they are Irish, therefore being grown in better "purer" conditions than are competitors. Also, crops should not be able to be grown all year round, its just unnautral and totally wrong. There is a natural balance to things, you start growing crops all year round you affect other wildlife, which in turn trickles down the food chain and leads to god knows what. In Ireland, its fixing a problem that does not need fixing, its just a way for people to be able to do less work and for company's to make a bigger profit.

    DDT and the affect it had on the enviorment should be a warning that many of these company's really dont know what they are doing and are only interested in profit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭Andy-Pandy


    Practically everything we eat is from sources that have been genetically modified, even organic foods come from GM stock!!!

    Id like to see some proof to back up that statement. To get an organic certification you have to go through some pretty rigorous changes to the normal farming conditions. This would include showing where your seed stock comes from, and i can assure you, in Ireland at least, GM stock just isnt going to get you that certification, even if you could get your hands on GM seeds, which you shouldnt legally be able to anyway.

    You are right though, there are products in Ireland that would contain foods made from GM crops, but non of them could originate in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Andy-Pandy wrote: »
    Practically everything we eat is from sources that have been genetically modified, even organic foods come from GM stock!!!

    Id like to see some proof to back up that statement. To get an organic certification you have to go through some pretty rigorous changes to the normal farming conditions. This would include showing where your seed stock comes from, and i can assure you, in Ireland at least, GM stock just isnt going to get you that certification, even if you could get your hands on GM seeds, which you shouldnt legally be able to anyway.

    You are right though, there are products in Ireland that would contain foods made from GM crops, but non of them could originate in Ireland.

    All domestic crops by definition are genetically modified.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,848 ✭✭✭Andy-Pandy


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    All domestic crops by definition are genetically modified.

    Can you please explain this more. Not trying to be smart, i am genuinely interested in this subject as it is part of my curriculum in college.

    Do you mean modified through generation's of breeding? I've no problems with this as it is a "natural" modification, with plants within the same genus being interbred. But implanting genetic material from totally alien sources can lead to who knows where, and that worries me.

    But ill stick to my original answer, there is no need for GM crops in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 163 ✭✭line6


    i don't suppose there's any connection with the population explosion - the curve is nearing the vertical now and some people might want to see fewer people on the planet

    and if they can make a few quid at the same time so much the better for them

    this would help explain the spraying of toxic chemicals into the atmosphere, and into the water supply as well


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 491 ✭✭doomed


    44leto wrote: »
    Yes they should with open arms it is a future industry.


    I'll certainly embrace it with all three of my arms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,136 ✭✭✭Archeron


    The carrots I bought in Lidl earlier said they think its a great idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    Never.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    Never.




    Not even in 100 years?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,012 ✭✭✭Plazaman


    Absolutely, bigger, tastier, better. Plus I want that new fruit that is a cross between a banana and an orange a banorange if you will..... or is that ornana........ mmmm..... ornana.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    Practically everything we eat is from sources that have been genetically modified, even organic foods come from GM stock!!!
    I'm not so sure about that, though I do know that it's almost impossible these days to tell if soya used in a food product (and it's in just about everything) is GM soya or not.
    People who grow organic foodstuffs are the most careful about seed stock etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 541 ✭✭✭TheBegotten


    I see the same thing everytime...GM foods cause cancer, deformaties, etc. Unfortunatly, most of these claims forget the rule of stats: correlation DOES NOT equal causation. For example, a recent survey has shown ~99% of criminals ate quantitys of bread in their youth. None of this type of data can be verified or disproved for a long time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Andy-Pandy wrote: »
    Can you please explain this more. Not trying to be smart, i am genuinely interested in this subject as it is part of my curriculum in college.

    Do you mean modified through generation's of breeding? I've no problems with this as it is a "natural" modification, with plants within the same genus being interbred. But implanting genetic material from totally alien sources can lead to who knows where, and that worries me.

    But ill stick to my original answer, there is no need for GM crops in Ireland.


    Hey Im sorry for the lateness of reply just back now.

    The debate about genetic engineering is extensive and has being going on for decades however the purpose behind genetic engineering is to breed a crop with a desired trait and this in itself has being going on for thousands of years. Although recent techniques allow us to modify, cut out and insert genes into crops with relative accuracy the desire to imbue a desired trait into a crop led farmers and plant breeders to experiment with breeding and cross breeding species of plant in an effort to breed the ideal crop. The very fact that there is “domesticated” plant species and wild plant species is testament to the fact that sometime in the past man has cultivated plants to have a desired trait such as sweetness, faster growth or larger tubers. These early farmers knew nothing of genetic engineering yet they still managed to completely breed thousands of species with the desired traits. The potential to manipulate plant growth and trait development is huge in plants as they are totipotent, that is plant cells have a high differentiating potential. This can be seen when plants generate an entire individual out of a small branch cutting.

    Every botonist worth his salt knows that the native americans were amongst the best engineerers of crops. The modifed a species of plants called teosintes from a bush like shrub to a crop that produced corn as evident in the "before and after seen here.

    The only thing that has changed with genetic engineering is the techniques used. The native americans used hybridization and the rest to acheive something totally different from what they started with. The techniques used now are much much more refined.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭Indubitable


    The problems causing world hunger is not the volume of food produced, it is the distribution of said food. Also, I think Organic food is Ireland's niche. That being said, I don't think I would have too much of a problem eating GM crops but I don't think I would ever eat meat grown in a laboratory.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    News article, December 2009

    'IRELAND ADOPTS GM-FREE ZONE POLICY

    DUBLIN - The Irish Government has announce it will ban the cultivation of all GM crops and introduce a voluntary GM-free label for food - including meat, poultry, eggs, fish, crustaceans, and dairy produce made without the use of GM animal feed.


    The policy was adopted as part of the Renewed Programme for Government and specifies that the Government will "Declare the Republic of Ireland a GM-Free Zone, free from the cultivation of all GM plants".

    The official text also states "To optimise Ireland's competitive advantage as a GM-Free country, we will introduce a voluntary GM-Free logo for use in all relevant product labelling and advertising, similar to a scheme recently introduced in Germany."

    The President of the Irish Cattle and Sheepfarmers Association, Malcolm Thompson, said he was delighted by the announcement, adding, "The Government's new GM-free policy is the fulfillment of what we at ICSA have held for the last five years. I very much look forward to its full implementation."


    Michael O'Callaghan of GM-free Ireland said the policy signals a new dawn for Irish farmers and food producers:


    "The WTO's economic globalisation agenda has forced most Irish farmers to enter an unwinnable race to the bottom for low quality GM-fed meat and dairy produce, in competition with countries like the USA, Argentina and Brazil which can easily out-compete us with their highly subsidised GM crop monocultures, cheap fossil fuel, extensive use of toxic agrochemicals that are not up to EU standards, and underpaid migrant farm labour.


    "Meanwhile, hundreds of European food brands, retailers and Regions now offer GM-free beef, pork, lamb, poultry, eggs, fish and dairy produce as part of their Food Safety, Quality Agriculture, Biodiversity, Fair Trade, Sustainable Development and Climate Change strategies. Thousands of brands in the USA are doing likewise. Without a GM-free label to distinguish our produce, Irish food is being excluded from this global market."


    "The Irish Government plan to ban GM crops and to provide a voluntary GM-fee label for qualifying animal produce makes obvious business sense for our agri-food and eco-tourism sectors . Everyone knows that US and EU consumers, food brands and retailers want safe GM-free food, and Ireland is ideally positioned to deliver the safest, most credible GM-free food brand in Europe, if not the world."


    The international market for GM-free animal produce is growing rapidly


    Across Europe, hundreds of leading food brands (including the largest dairy coop, Friesland Campina) and dozens of leading retailers (including the largest, Carrefour) now offer premium meat, fish, eggs, poultry eggs and dairy produce made without the use of GM feedstuffs. These are backed by GM-free labels and Government regulations in Austria, Italy, Germany, with France to follow later this year. Sales of GM-free milk have skyrocketed since the label came into effect in Germany.


    In the USA, to which Ireland exports vast quantities of dairy produce (including milk powder and casein for cheese production), leading food manufacturers, retailers, processors, distributors, farmers, seed breeders and consumers have set up joint venture called the Non-GMO Project, which already provides GM-free labels for over 1,000 food products by individual manufacturers in addition to thousands of GM-free private retail brands.


    Unique selling point for Irish food

    Ireland's geographical isolation and offshore Atlantic western winds provide a natural barrier to contamination by wind-borne GM pollen drift from countries such as the UK and Spain which still allow commercial release and/or field trials of GM crops.
    Together with this natural protection - and Ireland's famous green image and unpolluted topsoil - the new GM-free policy will provide Irish farmers and food producers who avoid the use of GM feed with a truly unique selling point: ''the most credible safe GM food brand in Europe."

    Moreover, because most Irish cattle and sheep enjoy a grass-based diet, their consumption of GM feedstuffs is lower than livestock in many competing countries. This provides Irish farmers with a valuable lead start in phasing out the use of GM feed. The only obstacle is the Irish animal feed cartel, which has a virtual monopoly on feed imports, and seems unwilling to provide the affordable Non-GM feedstuffs available to farmers in other European countries.


    Back in 2007, the Irish Government adopted a weaker policy "to seek to negotiate to declare the island of Ireland as a GMO-free zone", but the two opt-out clauses did not inspire conviction; failure to define the implications of the policy for GM animal feed created confusion in the farming sector and the Government failed to even draft any related legislation to implement the policy. That said, Ireland did stop voting in favour of new GMOs in Brussels and has since joined the majority of EU member states which back an Austrian proposal for the EU Commission to allow national bans on GM crops. In response to this move, the EU Commission indicated its willingness to consider national bans earlier this year.


    Although Ireland's new affirmative GM-free policy unambiguously aims to ban both commercial release as well as field trials of GM crops, it requires implementing legislation in the Republic, as well as Northern Ireland to prevent contamination from across the border.


    A label that means what it says


    O'Callaghan said the Irish GM-free label for algae, meat, poultry, eggs, crustaceans, fish, and dairy produce should set a higher standard than the existing German and proposed French labels, which mislead consumers by allowing GM-free claims for animal produce from livestock whose diet has included large amounts of GM feedstuffs for varying periods before they are converted into food:


    "Ireland's GM-free label should mean what it says, i.e. no feeding of any GM-labelled feedstuffs during the entire life of the animal. Specifically, the label should guarantee that the animal has been fed either on plant materials for which no GMO varieties exist, or on fodder crops that contain no GMO ingredients above the generally accepted detection level of 0.1 per cent. To avoid misleading consumers, the EU should to adopt a credible GM-free labelling regulation of this kind for the whole single market, instead of allowing individual member state to set their own standards, which can be not only confusing, but also deceptive. The Irish Government is now in a position to lead on this."


    International reaction


    Jochen Koester, a leading soy industry adviser who runs TraceConsult in Geneva, Switzerland, said: "The Irish Government's decision is very timely and deserves congratulations. In a very natural way, this will increase the Irish farmers' demand for Non-GMO animal nutrition that permits GMO-free claims on the final animal product. Increased import volumes and lower per-tonne logistics costs will bring down the price of certified Non-GMO imported soy meal. Irish farmers can thus soon join the ranks of "GMO-free" producers from Austria, Germany and France. This enhanced supplier platform will also create a lot more clout for all players in the Non-GMO food and feed industries."


    In London, the Irish Michelin-starred celebrity chef and TV host Richard Corrigan laughed out loud when he heard the news at his Bentley's Mayfair restaurant, adding that "the eyes of Europe will now gaze with envy on Ireland!" (Corrigan created a stir in Irish farming circles earlier this year when he denounced Bord Bia [the Irish Food Board] on his TV programme for providing its Quality Assurance label to meat and dairy produce from livestock fed on GM feedstuffs which are excluded from such labels in more food-savvy EU countries.


    Reacting to the announcement in Rome, Greenpeace EU GMO Policy Director Marco Contiero said "Greenpeace welcomes this decision by the Irish Government. It puts an additional brake on the global expansion of the risky, unproven and costly technology of genetically modified agriculture. Ireland's GM-free policy answers the serious concerns which European consumers have on GM food, and will allow Irish retailers and businesses to be rewarded for the good quality produce they bring to the market."


    Commenting from the USA, the Executive Director of the Non-GMO Project Megan Thompson said "Ireland has taken a truly inspiring step towards ensuring consumers' right to choose non-GMO products... As more and more companies in the USA and Canada are looking for non-GMO ingredients, this is a very timely move and we look forward to developing sourcing opportunities with GM-free producers in Ireland."


    Speaking for GM-Free Cymru in Wales, Dr Brian John said: "We congratulate the Irish Government on this very bold step, which is underpinned by sound science and by a proper regard for the precautionary principle. It is also a very smart commercial move which will give Ireland a competitive advantage. We hope that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland will now follow suit by making similar declarations and by showing the Westminster government that its slavish adherence to a pro-GM agenda is scientifically untenable and out of step with the public mood."


    In Brussels, Friends of the Earth Europe's GMO campaign co-ordinator Helen Holder said "All around Europe, countries are putting up bans or other limits to growing genetically modified crops and the Irish government is to be congratulated. The EU should drop genetically modified food and crops, and instead support green farming which is good for the economy and for the planet".


    But that was then... It's ultimately very disappointing to see yet another about turn just when politicians got it right for a change.


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