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Primary school college course and atheism

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    Thank you, MagicMarker. All I can see, at the moment, are a 'Reply With Quote' button, a 'Multi-Quote This Message' button and a 'Quick reply to this message' button, which I used to send this.

    By the way, does anyone know what the 'correct' answers to the original HDAPE questions are?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭KamiKazeKitten


    And then they still dare to write in their submissions that the schools are all inclusive. I would very much like to know where this was as it can be very useful in future submissions.

    I'll see if I can find out for you, don't know if the lecturer would be happy naming it but I'll try. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    I'll see if I can find out for you, don't know if the lecturer would be happy naming it but I'll try. :)

    I PMed you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Solair wrote: »
    It's absolutely insane that religious organisations are the only agencies offering primary teacher training.
    There's already a choice though. Protestant teacher training produces the right teachers to teach the kids in protestant schools, and catholic teacher training does likewise for catholic schools. That's the way it is, and always has been.
    Who are you, to question the system?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Solair wrote: »
    I also know a few non-Catholic (atheist and protestant) primary school teachers who trained outside Ireland who teach in Catholic primary schools without any issue.
    While it could potentially be problematic for them, it hasn't been. They seem to get way with just being able to teach the religious bits of the course. They don't necessarily have to believe or agree with what they're teaching.
    They were probably taken on during the boom years when there was a shortage of teachers. They were even taking on people without any teaching qualification at all, at one stage. It won't be happening again for a long time...
    JonPierson wrote: »
    If you are religious, you believe that your god is everywhere, knows everything and is all powerful and so must be responsible for either causing these disasters or sitting back and letting them happen. If there is anyone religious reading this, tell me where my logic fails.

    (Please do not forget to post the expected answer to 'Question 13 of 20'.)

    Thank you.
    Religion and logic do not mix.
    The expected answer to that question is that the statement "Hinduism is positive for society" is "false", because "apparently" those badboys perpetuate the caste system in India.
    This makes the statement about atheists being negative for society "true".
    I presume the third statement about Islam is also supposed to be some kind of slur against muslims, but I can't make any sense out of it myself.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,943 ✭✭✭wonderfulname


    recedite wrote: »
    I presume the third statement about Islam is also supposed to be some kind of slur against muslims, but I can't make any sense out of it myself.

    As far as I can tell the 3rd option is indeed false, unless you're an Islamist, Islam being the religion and Islamists being those who believe it should guide society as well as personal life.

    So it's kind of ironic in a way, saying one religion should have no say in society in a manner which clearly suggests you believe another should...

    But I could be wrong, Islam isn't exactly something I know much about.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    Thank you to both recedite and wonderfulname for your assistance in achieving my quest. Unfortunately, we seem to have a difference of opinion and I am certainly not qualified to pick the winner, as it were.

    I think that I had already resigned myself to having, at whatever degree of separation, a negative effect on society. I frequently consider my failures in this respect. For example, I've never stuck my dick up a little boy's arse, I don't accumulate wealth and property beyond the dreams of Croesus, while millions die each day for the want of fresh water, food and a cure for malaria and I certainly don't go around telling poor people in AIDS affected countries that condoms are evil and, anyway, let the HIV virus pass through them. I guess, I should practice those things, like the Roman Catholic church does, just so that I wouldn't have such a negative effect on society.

    Shucks, all I do is try to treat people as they want to be treated. (I don't go with the idea that I should treat people how I want to be treated because that would arrogantly assume that the way I want to be treated is the way that everyone should want to be treated but, then again, I'm not religious.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    As far as I can tell the 3rd option is indeed false, unless you're an Islamist, Islam being the religion and Islamists being those who believe it should guide society as well as personal life.

    So it's kind of ironic in a way, saying one religion should have no say in society in a manner which clearly suggests you believe another should...

    Good point. So its about the separation of Church and State, or lack of it, in the Muslim world.
    Its a pity they couldn't string together a coherent sentence.
    It really is infantile stuff. Reminds me of Rudyard Kipling talking (a long time ago) about how it was "the white man's burden" to go out to these faraway places and show them the proper way of doing things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    Can I ask what other material or questions were in the course about Islam?

    P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    recedite wrote: »
    T
    Who are you, to question the system?
    You are aware, I hope, that if people bowed to such phrases as 'who are you to question the system' we'd all still be living in caves, using stone tools, and risking dying for want of a course of penecillen before reaching puberty.

    Questioning the system isn't just good, it should be mandatory.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40 JonPierson


    kylith wrote: »
    You are aware, I hope, that if people bowed to such phrases as 'who are you to question the system' we'd all still be living in caves, using stone tools, and risking dying for want of a course of penecillen before reaching puberty.

    Questioning the system isn't just good, it should be mandatory.

    kylith, I think that recedite was using irony to underscore the point that we live in a State in which successive governments have relinquished their responsibilities to citizens by permitting unelected and unaccountable organisations – religions – to decide what garbage children, as young as four-years-old, are indoctrinated with and how those inflicting the indoctrination are trained.

    The United Nations Human Rights Committee, under the International Covenant
 on Civil and 
Political Rights, said of Ireland, in its 'Consideration of Reports Submitted by States Parties 
Under Article 40 of the Covenant' (CCPR/C/IRL/CO/3):

    22. The Committee notes with concern that the vast majority of Ireland’s primary schools are privately run denominational schools that have adopted a religious integrated curriculum thus depriving many parents and children who so wish to have access to secular primary education. (arts. 2, 18, 24, 26).
    The State party should increase its efforts to ensure that non-denominational primary education is widely available in all regions of the State party, in view of the increasingly diverse and multi-ethnic composition of the population of the State party.

    As we all know, the 'State party' has failed, in every respect, to ensure that even one non-denominational primary school exists in the State.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    I'd mentioned a journo was doing an article on this a while back; unfortunately no papers were interested. (I guess Vatican embassies or lack of are seen as a bigger religious-rights issue than the teaching of humanists and Hindus as evil). Anyway, here's the article as a blog entry:

    http://faduda.ie/longform/controversial-religion-questions-on-student-teacher-exam

    P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    I have informed some journalists as well and so has Atheist Ireland. The Irish Times picked up on it but dropped it due to an other news item that was given priority by the editor.

    Atheist Ireland had a meeting today with the Council of Europe and handed the notes from Hibernia College to them.

    I will report later what else is happening.

    I will write a follow up to the Minister for sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    I have informed some journalists as well and so has Atheist Ireland. The Irish Times picked up on but dropped due to an other news item that was given priority by the editor.

    Atheist Ireland had an meeting today with the Council of Europe and handed the notes from Hibernia College to them.

    I will report later what else is happening.

    We await with great interest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭quietriot


    Thanks for that, oceanclub.

    I'm glad to see action being taken over this and will help out in any way I can.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Atheist Ireland had an meeting today with the Council of Europe and handed the notes from Hibernia College to them.
    194471.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    http://www.atheist.ie/2012/02/report-of-atheist-ireland-meeting-with-council-of-europe-delegations-on-human-rights/

    a report on the meeting. The Hibernia College is mentioned under education


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,907 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Solair wrote: »
    I think it's high time that a secular university launched a proper primary teaching undergraduate degree.

    It's absolutely insane that religious organisations are the only agencies offering primary teacher training.

    For example could UCC not offer a B. Ed. and a Pg. Dip. in Primary Education? Perhaps in conjunction with Educate Together or something.

    A lot of people don't necessarily want to be trained in Mary Immaculate or Saint Patrick's, Drumcondra.

    A UCC programme would be ideal, particularly as Cork has no primary education training centre, yet it's our second city and UCC is a secular university without any kind of religious bias in its setup. . .
    The irony in all this is that, as far as I can tell, Hibernia College is a secular institution. It’s recently established, privately, by an entrepreneur, and nothing on its website suggests any religious affiliation or character of any kind. (Now, I’m just going by the website, so someone who knows more about the place than I do may be able to correct me.)

    If you look on the website at the relevant section of the syllabus which covers RE, it looks roundly non-denominational and non-faith based:

    Teaching Pedagogy 3: Social, Scientific, Personal and R.E.
    The aims of this module are to:
    • Examine the six central methodologies of the curriculum in the context of the various subjects
    • Highlight recommended assessment strategies to appraise effectiveness of pupil learning in the context of the various subjects
    • Enable students to critically examine the role of assessment in enhancing pupil learning
    • Afford students the opportunity to critically examine effective strategies that enhance pupils’ learning in social, scientific and personal education
    • Inform students about the fundamental beliefs of different faiths, including the Roman Catholic doctrine, and explain how they are applied in the teaching of Religious and Ethical Education in primary school classes


    From that, it appears that students are not required to be religious at all; merely to know about religion and, mostly, to know how to teach about it.

    From the evidence of the mock exam and the class notes, the actual tone of this module is very different from what the syllabus would suggest. And there’s no obvious reason why this should be so, if the college is in fact non-religious.

    My wild guess is that they don’t take the religion component of the curriculum at all seriously. They’ve hired a religious freak to teach that module, and they are paying no attention to what he or she is actually teaching. Or else they’ve cobbled together a course based on someone’s teaching notes from forty years ago. You might conceivably get better delivery of the religion module in a religious institution, where at least they might take it seriously. Based on what we’ve seen so far, it could hardly be any worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Atheist Ireland has today sent the following letter about this issue to Hibernia College, the Minister for Education, the Higher Education and Training Awards Council; the Teaching Council; the Irish National Teachers Organisation; the Union of Students in Ireland; and selected politicians with an interest or responsibility in this area.

    See full letter here.

    Atheist Ireland is requesting that the untrue statements and defamatory allegations be immediately removed from the course notes and examinations, and then that the Religion module be entirely revised so that it teaches students about religion in an objective, critical and pluralistic manner. We have offered to assist in this by providing accurate information about atheism and atheists.

    We have already raised the matter with two Council of Europe delegations who are in Dublin this week monitoring Ireland’s record in protecting human rights. They are the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI), and the Advisory Committee for the Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities (FCNM).


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    My wild guess is that they don’t take the religion component of the curriculum at all seriously. They’ve hired a religious freak to teach that module, and they are paying no attention to what he or she is actually teaching. Or else they’ve cobbled together a course based on someone’s teaching notes from forty years ago. You might conceivably get better delivery of the religion module in a religious institution, where at least they might take it seriously. Based on what we’ve seen so far, it could hardly be any worse.

    The College’s Grade Moderator or Lead Tutor in the subject of Religion is Father Vincent Twomey, professor emeritus of moral theology at St Patrick's College Maynooth. He also wrote the course notes for the module on Atheism.

    Last year he was conferred with the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice medal by Cardinal Burke. The medal was given to Fr Twomey for outstanding services rendered to the Church and to the Pope.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    The College’s Grade Moderator or Lead Tutor in the subject of Religion is Father Vincent Twomey, professor emeritus of moral theology at St Patrick's College Maynooth. He also wrote the course notes for the module on Atheism.

    Last year he was conferred with the Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice medal by Cardinal Burke. The medal was given to Fr Twomey for outstanding services rendered to the Church and to the Pope.

    I presume this is the same Father Twomey who is a Patron of the Iona Institute along with David Quinn and Breda O'Brien?

    http://www.ionainstitute.ie/personnel_patrons.php

    Do his course notes included the above-mentioned section related to atheism being trendy and mass-murdering?

    P.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭Michael Nugent


    oceanclub wrote: »
    I presume this is the same Father Twomey who is a Patron of the Iona Institute along with David Quinn and Breda O'Brien?

    http://www.ionainstitute.ie/personnel_patrons.php

    Do his course notes included the above-mentioned section related to atheism being trendy and mass-murdering?

    P.

    Yes, and yes. The course notes for the relevant lesson begin:

    Slide 1: Introduction
    Hello, I’m Fr. Vincent Twomey. Welcome to this lesson in your course on Religion. The following lesson will focus on morality, what it is, and developments in moral theology, which is systematic reflection on morality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    Straight out of the notes:


    Slide 3: Section learning objectives
    The learning objectives for this section are to:
     Examine the relationships between various religions and politics:
    o Atheism
    o Hinduism
    o Judaism
    o Islam
     Discuss the relationship between Christian faith and politics, and the Church and State
     Explore the relationship between justice and religion
     Learn about the development of Catholic social teaching



    Slide 4: Religion and politics: atheism
    Faith can be in God or in progress, in the gods or in one’s own race. Faith can conceive God as one or many, as personal or impersonal. Even when it rejects God, namely atheism, it generally places its faith in some other absolute, be it humanism, the march of history, materialism, the economy, or even hedonism, cuius venter deus est (‘whose belly is their god’), as Paul once put it. However, with regard to these latter so-called ‘faiths’ in false gods or idols, one usually speaks today not of faith but of ‘ideology’. What is significant is that, in every such case, such misplaced faith (or ideology) has profound political implications. Atheism seems to be fashionable in Ireland at present. It is seen as rational, progressive and compassionate. But above all, it is ‘in’, not to mention convenient, since as Dostoyevski said in 19th century Russia, where it was likewise ‘in’, that if there is no God then anything can be justified. What bothers very few of its latter-day exponents is the fact that atheist humanism produced the worst horrors history has ever witnessed, namely Nazism, Fascism and Marxism, the latter alone responsible for some 100 million lives, according to The Black Book written by French exMarxists.
    Atheism is not a benign force in history.

    I will see if I can find the link from the torrent side I got them from. When I found it I will post it.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    i can't believe that lying bigotry is allowed in this day and age


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    That (quoted in post #204) is actually disgusting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    "However, with regard to these latter so-called ‘faiths’ in false gods or idols, one usually speaks today not of faith but of ‘ideology’. What is significant is that, in every such case, such misplaced faith (or ideology) has profound political implications"

    That does not sound biased at all...


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    bluewolf wrote: »
    i can't believe that lying bigotry is allowed in this day and age

    I can=(

    Glad to see AI's letter - the optimist in me hopes that this will be the first pebble in an avalanche that leads to an overhaul of religious education.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    TheJournal covers the story:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/atheists-criticise-religion-exam-at-student-teacher-college-368004-Feb2012/

    The comments are fairly uniform in condemning it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    why did it take michael nugent to find out Twomey wrote these notes as opposed to somebody in the course?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭darealtulip


    as promised, I found the torrent

    <mod snip/>

    We can't offer torrent links to potentially copyrighted material on Boards.ie -
    Whatever link sharing going on via PM, however, is your business folks.

    Dades



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